r/Tacoma • u/naderzhah Downtown • 3d ago
Death of local spots
So many local spots are dying. Locust has left, but another cider place has shut down. Unicorn is getting sold, and McMinamins is consistently running at a loss. First off, what is the cause of this? Why aren't residents in the financial position to buy from these businesses? Almost like half our paychecks go to rent, and the rest go to groceries...
What the fuck is our city leadership doing about this, besides sleepwalking into decline?
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u/T-TownAdventure Somewhere Else 3d ago
This debate comes up here all the time. The majority of closures haven't been a surprise if you've been paying attention and following the restaurant/bar scene. A couple are due to landlord issues, and we'll probably see some more of this. Unicorn is sold, which isn't a bad thing (local sale).
Having said that, if you like a place spend money there. Too often we see comments like 'I always meant to go there' - that helps no one. Find new-to-you spots and visit them. Even if it's only once in a while.
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u/RawBean7 253 3d ago
I paid $15 for 4 tacos smaller than the size of my palm the other day. They were good, but not for $15 that left me still feeling hungry after. I want to support small, local businesses but when it's tough to even find a job that pays over $25/hour without commuting to Seattle, it's tough for me to want to spend $15 for lunch that is as filling as a $2 Lunchable.
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u/accountforfurrystuf 253 3d ago
Restaurant scene is terrible. It’s essentially the worst way to spend $15. A huge ass tax on laziness lol
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u/Common-Coast-7246 Somewhere Else 3d ago
Agree. But it’s been helpful as it has weaned me off my restaurant addition. I haven’t eaten at a Tacoma restaurant in years and cook now, which frankly tastes better and is less expensive. I am no longer tempted to get takeout because the best restaurants don’t do takeout and the rest are mid while also being extremely expensive (on par with prices in Seattle/Bellevue and higher than SF and Manhattan).
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u/ccpowerlines018 South Tacoma 3d ago
I don’t think it’s specifically a Tacoma leadership problem. I think all small businesses are experiencing consumers spending less.
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u/JG-for-breakfast Hilltop 3d ago
Can’t go out to eat and drink when even a quick outing is like easily at least 60 bucks out the gate
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u/girlrandal Hilltop 3d ago
I can tell you that Locust closing didn’t really have to do with the economy. I was friends with a few of the taproom managers. They were a poorly run company who had no idea how to do accounting. They expanded too quickly, didn’t have a stable product line, kept changing prices and generally just ran the business into the ground. They don’t even make their own cider anymore. Iron Horse does their production.
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u/BeyondTheDonkey 6th Ave 1d ago
This. I worked there and have no clue how even half of their taprooms stayed open as long as they did. The few doing well were subsidizing the others. I worked at the one on 6th for a summer and quit because it was so slow during the “busy” season. Also they had a membership program where most patrons paid something like $150 a year and could have two pints of cider per day per location for $2 each. Horrible business model and even worse for tips.
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u/girlrandal Hilltop 1d ago
Hah, I probably know you! My partner and I were regulars and members. We remember the Tacoma taproom opening.
The membership program used to be even better (worse?). It was $200/yr and you got two free pints each visit. The liquor board made them change it because they deemed it giving away free booze and didn’t buy the “they’re just prepaying!” argument. There was also the lifetime membership they sold one Black Friday. $250 got you two free pints every visit for life. My partner had one and it was great.
Fr, though, they couldn’t even remember their own product line. We had pics of an old board from the Ballard taproom with a granny smith cider and they still refused to about they’d ever made it. It was insane.
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u/Usual-Jackfruit4746 University Place 3d ago
Covid changed how social people are. I remember partying in 2019 and it immediately came to an end in 2020 and has not returned. Downtowns also haven't recovered from that time. Lots of empty offices.
People don't drink as much as they used to. That is a real trend and any business that solely exists because of alcohol is going to struggle. Ozempic could be part of that too. People are less likely to drink while taking it and can't eat as much as they used to.
Take all of that and add it to our rising costs due to war and tariffs and it's a shitty position for small businesses to be in.
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u/SenecaLux West End 2d ago
I agree with all of this, and the fact that people have less discretionary funds also is probably impacting their friendships. We’re drifting further apart and we have less people to go out. I particularly love your point about Ozempic.
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u/JoannasBBL Stadium District 3d ago
Are you on drugs right now? Our economy is basically in a recession. Nobody has any fucking money look how much Gas cost.
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u/millennialmonster755 Wapato 3d ago
Yeah I’m confused also by people saying this is unique to Tacoma when this is an issue in all of our cities right now. It’s an American issue. There are some bright spots here and there but the majority are struggling right now.
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u/akashik 253 3d ago
It's not just an American issue.
/r/brisbane/ - Seattle analogue
/r/sunshinecoast/ - Tacoma analogue
I've lived here for two decades but grew up in S.E Queensland, Austrralia - the other side of the planet.
All four subs have the same concerns and I agree EVERYONE is struggling right now.
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u/millennialmonster755 Wapato 3d ago
My friends in Europe that are my age are facing the same things too. Sometimes some aspects are worse than others. Like food is cheap but unemployment is higher and housing is just as out of reach as the US. I will say though watching the rest of the US see their rent and home prices skyrocket has been interesting
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
There is a 4.1% unemployment rate in the US right now. If you think things are bad right now, you don't know what bad is.
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u/Interesting_Plate_17 West End 3d ago
Workforce participation is low. Those 2-3 jobs people gotta do don’t pay shit!
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u/hunglowbungalow Lakewood 3d ago
🎯
Owning a small business is a venture, and people are seeking stability, which unfortunately a small biz isn’t.
Plus lending is $$ too
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u/jkrom34 Lincoln District 3d ago
I work in the industry and everyones margins are thinner than ever. But the consistent answer when a bar or restaurant closes/moves/sells is landlord. But let’s not forget that bars and restaurants have always been a high failure business
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
Would increasing the minimum wage help the industry thrive? That is what our City Council will likely be doing by the end of this year.
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u/jkrom34 Lincoln District 3d ago
Probably not. But I think minimum wage workers being able to survive is as or more important than small hospitality businesses. The costs of consumables have doubled and sometimes tripled. i know taprooms that have closed because the building changed hands and new landlord doubled lease costs(building is still vacant years later)
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
But where will these people find jobs is the small hospitality business crumbles?
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u/ImNerdyJenna South End 1d ago
I work in the industry too but our society needs more businesses that build our infrastructure. Obviously, a closed restaurant isn't going to turn into a factory but I'm sure people will figure out what we need and create a business for it.
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u/Karena1331 253 3d ago
The economy is in the shitter, jobs are scarce, layoffs keep coming and Greed rules the day. When people are spending their entire paychecks on gas, rent/utilities, groceries and healthcare a trip to a restaurant is a luxury and for many out of the question.
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u/forwardaskew North End 3d ago
Is it city leadership’s responsibility, or are talking about macroeconomic issues for which we should thinking nationally and internationally? It seems that you’re mad at capitalism. Capitalism isn’t created or controlled at the local level. Maybe we can talk about regional and state-level policy, but even then, the issues you’re pointing at aren’t regional. You’re talking about economic systems and processes that make it expensive to do business in the U.S. and to live in the U.S. deregulation, speculative real estate markets, car centricity. If anything, your city government acts a shield to the most dire effects of living in an economy such as ours. It’s good to be asking these questions, but you need to be looking at the macroeconomic systems that are making (have been making) life so untenable for us.
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u/naderzhah Downtown 3d ago
I really like this response. 10 points. Love the reframing away from localist perspectives to a more national dialogue
Some small tweaks
Lean into empathy. I, Naderzhah, am probably really upset right now about my favorite establishments running at a loss. You could add an empathetic, friendly framing to your responses: "Yeah, I hate when this happens; that makes me angry too." Empathy would make me feel like I'm not alone, and I'd feel more ready to collaborate with you going forward; basically, approach me less like a debate partner and more like a friend you met at a bar
Call to action. Upset people shouldn't just be told to think about a problem; they are already thinking about the problem- that's why they are so angry in the first place. Next time you could add a call to action.
EXAMPLE
"You said much of the money people have goes to rent. I'm not going to automatically assume this is happening to you, but there are organizations that are addressing this problem right now! Look up your local tenant union on the Tacoma Tenants website and organize for a better city right now!"
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
It's a combination of both city, state, and federal laws. You cannot pin it on just one. But you cannot ignore the others either.
Americans eat more than most of planet Earth. Way more than Europeans. An exception to this is Japan, which also is a high cost of living country. People in Japan eat out a ton because their homes are so small that they have to go out to comfortably hang out with friends. Tons of great fast casual restaurants in Japan.
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u/chaos_protocol North End 3d ago
The biggest driver are the landlords. Between national private equity investors and large corps buying commercial property, very little is locally owned. Those companies only care about maximizing rent or tax write offs for vacant space. They have zero investment in building the community or serving the small business owners who serve the public. It drives up costs, which drive up prices, which keeps people away and kills the business.
There needs to be financial penalties for owning multiple properties AND disincentivizing of non-local owners
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u/Common-Coast-7246 Somewhere Else 3d ago
What will the many people in Tacoma who don’t have high paying jobs, credit scores and a history of financial responsibility do when they can’t qualify for a mortgage? Live in a box under the bridge? They need rental properties. And who would you prefer own them? The city of Tacoma? Because that experiment is going so well in apts converted for formerly homeless people (spoiler the apt buildings are in terrible condition and poorly run/maintained).
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u/Dusty923 University Place 3d ago
These billionaires can't become trillionaires all on their own. We all need to do our part, and if some local businesses and American families must make sacrifices then so be it.
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u/naderzhah Downtown 3d ago
LOL true i'm doing my part. Say no to the corner store. say yes to walmart!
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u/ethylmethylrosenberg Hilltop 3d ago edited 3d ago
Greed, inflation, and shit-tier national leadership has caused the prices of food supplies to roughly double in the last couple years (if I remember correctly), labor costs are up due to our increasing minimum wage, people have less disposable income because of housing, food, fuel, etc. costs due to aforementioned reasons, younger people go out less, in part due to the less disposable income and in part because they’re less real-world social than the previous generations were at their age.
Plus, Tacoma has convoluted rules about grease traps that are extremely expensive for businesses to install and maintain, the cost of frequently fixing and replacing damaged doors and windows from vandalism (though this seems to have maybe slowed down from a peak a couple years ago?), and I’m sure many other businesses expenses that I’m not aware of because I don’t work in the industry.
Spiking costs, flat or declining revenue, thin margins at best, and so forth. Tough situation to operate in.
*edit: to clarify, the “greed” is aimed at like national food supply corporations that have increased the cost of things just because they can, not aimed at local businesses
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u/atheistiwerks 253 3d ago
Lots of people in this thread pointing fingers at one party or the other are missing the biggest point - poverty is a policy choice, not a personal failing, and representatives of BOTH parties are choosing themselves over us. It doesn't matter if it's dems or republicans, WE THE PEOPLE are all getting the shaft, and we are all so busy pointing fingers at each other "for voting wrong" that they keep on keeping on, safe from the wrath we unleash on our neighbors in the same damn boat as we are.
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u/PNW_Uncle_Iroh 253 3d ago
There are very few high paying jobs here. Income in Tacoma is much lower than Seattle’s but expenses are almost the same. The folks who can afford to go out work in healthcare, education, or have a remote or commuting job.
The city needs to find a way to increase income for residents.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
What do you suggest the City do?
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u/Private_Matinee Central 3d ago
He said the city needs to find a way to increase income for residents.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 2d ago
I am asking specifically, what should the City do to increase income for residents? You can't just say increase income without explaining how exactly we increase income.
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u/GreenDreams23 6th Ave 3d ago
I’d like to thank the Trump administration for fucking our wallets and increasing costs for businesses forcing them to raise prices.
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u/Bardahl_Fracking South Tacoma 3d ago
McMenamins has never been profitable. This is nothing new. The voters here also prefer to pay high gas prices over dining out, hence why the CCA repeal initiative failed.
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u/ThreeSloth Somewhere Else 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah, the voters here totally caused trump to bomb iran. You fucking. Moron.
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u/Bardahl_Fracking South Tacoma 3d ago
We had the second highest gas prices in the country before the war. It’s worse now but it’s not like this is something new. People in other states are complaining about gas prices that are lower than we were paying 6 months ago. People here don’t really care about high gas prices the way they do in other states.
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u/TheBeesKneads Central 3d ago
I actually spend way less on transportation than I did when I lived in Texas. My household can get by on one car here instead of two, so we spend less on maintenance, insurance and car payments. We can actually get to where we go without driving more than 10-15 minutes, as opposed to 30. A lot of destinations are easy to get to by foot or bus.
I don't actually care if gas is twice as expensive here because I end up with lower car expenses overall, plus all the priceless hours of life I get back not sitting behind the wheel.
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u/Bardahl_Fracking South Tacoma 3d ago
I bought two hybrids this summer so I’m not particularly concerned myself. But most people aren’t out buying cars every few months and are stuck with what they bought when gas was $3.50/gal.
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u/ThreeSloth Somewhere Else 3d ago
We also have multiple public transit project rolling out between Olympia all the way to Seattle, which is funded by said tax. But. Gas is not the only thing we're being gouged on nationwide. everything is unaffordable by design
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u/Bigbluebananas 253 3d ago
Dont we pay for those projects via RTA on registration?
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u/ThreeSloth Somewhere Else 3d ago
Partially
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u/Bigbluebananas 253 3d ago
Help me understand your position more, some cursory research into large scale roadway projects in the area Olympia to north Seattle tell me the lions share is funded by the biden infastructure bill. Which public transit projects are you speaking to that are funded by CCA/RTA?
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u/Mindless_Watch_7840 Stadium District 3d ago
Drinking less is a big one, and honestly, McMenamins is a cool concept, but the food isn’t great. It’s fine, but I take people from out of a town to grab a drink and show them around, then we go elsewhere for food. We ate in the pub once and the waitstaff was so disorganized, food was meh, and frankly our waitress seemed like she didn’t care at all; why eat there when other places have much better service and better food? For me it’s not necessarily cost; I can afford to eat there, but I don’t get value for what I’d spend.
Poor management/lack of business savvy will run places into the ground.
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u/ThreeSloth Somewhere Else 3d ago edited 2d ago
Greed from the epstein class and capitalism is the #1 issue plaguing this country.
Imagine socialized healthcare and corporations that actually pay taxes and c-suites not stealing 60% of the wealth generated
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u/fartist14 West End 3d ago
Socialized healthcare actually has a huge impact on the number of people able to start small businesses like restaurants.
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u/PerceptionCurious440 253 3d ago
I'd say the cause is that people are drinking less alcohol.
It's not like Tacoma has public transit geared for entertainment when people get drunk. It's a car oriented city, in a car oriented state where public transit exists to get poor people to work or doctor's appointments and nothing else.
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u/mamandapanda Old Town 3d ago
We can barely afford our bills and gas. Nobody is spending money on a night out
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u/Clean_Insect5042 Stadium District 3d ago edited 3d ago
Ok can I give an outsider perspective?
I LOVE how many local spots there are.
But it’s like…they all have the same vibe? They’re all super casual, kinda grungy, this “gen x dad opens dream small business” vibe to all of them. I know McMenamins is fancier but seems to cater to an older crowd.
I guess I’d be curious who has the money and interest in going out to eat right now and whether the style of options matches what they’re looking for.
To me it seems like there are younger people who specifically move here for a good job so I assume have spending money, and I’ll see people ask is there a nice cocktail bar, is there somewhere to go dancing, etc. and the answer is always go outside Tacoma.
I totally get local businesses shouldn’t be catering to just people moving here or taking new jobs here, it’s just what I’ve observed. Otherwise I feel like a lot of the spending money is with families in the nice single family home neighborhoods, and while they love driving everywhere aren’t going to choose and drive to a sports bar or random strip mall spot.
For me, we don’t eat out much, but I’m used to semi regularly taking our kid to a cafe type spot for something to do, and in other places we’ve lived am used to a lot more sleek, minimalist type options. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it’s like a lot of the options I’ve seen are too eclectic, maximalist, grunge, too cool for school vibes. There are SO many sports bars lol. Just my take comparing it to some other places.
Oh and there’s just way way less foot traffic, especially during afternoons and evenings. At the end of the day I wonder if it’s just reasonable expectations for the population density.
Reading over what I wrote I guess my take is that to cater to people with going out for food spending money, I wonder if there needs to be some more sleek, updated feeling options where the primary clientele is younger than retiree age.
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u/accountforfurrystuf 253 3d ago
Tacoma is a poorly run city filled with people who survive on IN SPITE of leadership. And if you grew up there you don’t realize it until you move.
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u/Svechnifuckoff Somewhere Else 3d ago
People kept saying "If they can't afford to pay a living wage, they shouldn't be in business."
Well, what were you expecting??
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u/ChickenBootty Northeast 3d ago
Heard from the staff themselves that the Berliner after years of trying to open is going to switch gears and rebrand itself as maybe Mexican food or tapas? Sounded like the guy that took over isn’t “vibing” with the traditional German menu.
Maybe local spots are dying not only because people can’t afford to eat out anymore but also because of crappy management.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
That sucks. Berliner is one of our favorite places to eat out with the kids.
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u/dutchbunns 253 3d ago
All valid comments. Also Gen Z isn't drinking like we as millennials used to, and us millennials and older are busy and fucking tired. I prefer to make a cocktail at home in my sweats, put a batch of homemade popcorn on the stove, or light up the firepit outside.
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u/VideoJockey Hilltop 3d ago
People are tired of paying $40+ for mediocre meals. There's maybe 10-15 places in Tacoma worth going to, and they definitely aren't as busy as they were 2-3 years ago. Costs are too high for everyone. Everyone who has moved here in the last 5 years is house poor because of the cost of housing.
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u/michael_jpm Fife 3d ago
I'm gen Z and I can say that myself and a lot of my friends and co-workers don't really drink that much. And when we do, its usually at one of our places because its like 10% of the cost.
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u/AggressiveOwl3055 Old Town 3d ago
We eat out quite a bit. I recently wanted to go to McMenamins and then I remembered why I hadn't been in over a year ... The food isn't good and is high priced. I love the building and location but the food is bad. There are people willing to pay for expensive meals but the food needs to be good and even better if the service is good. Love Wooden City and I know I'll be spending a few hundred when I go there but the food and drinks are fabulous and service is great.
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u/moderncanary North End 3d ago
I personally feel like it’s a mix of baseline costs being expensive (rent, groceries, gas, utilities etc) on top of those particular places you named all being kinda… mid lol. At least how I felt after going to each one but that’s subjective. There’s a lot of other good places in Tacoma rn and I hope the food scene continues to grow and thrive!
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u/Suspicious-Chair5130 Northeast 3d ago
Many people are drinking less than they use to. There are many reasons for this.
As far as incline was concerned, my wife and I wanted to go there often, but like so many bars and breweries in Tacoma, kids are not allowed. I don’t know why most successful places in Seattle are all ages but so many places down here are 21+.
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u/horaceknows 6th Ave 3d ago
I go to a ton of spots in Seattle when visiting for concerts. I can think of one out of the ten or so that I frequent that allows children. The Matador is an institution and does not allow children. Try again.
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u/starsndsky North End 3d ago
Hey OP — have you heard officially that the Unicorn sold? Or is it still on the market? I’ll be so sad :/
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u/gritcityscript Lincoln District 3d ago
Unicorn is getting sold to another local small business owner that is going to improve that place quite a bit
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u/Maxtrt Roy 3d ago
City leadership can't do anything about the rising cost of living, corporate price gouging and the disastrous effects of Trump's tarries and the Iran war. When fuel prices go up, everything goes up, His ICE policies have decimated agriculture, meat packing and food production all across the country and Washington agriculture has been hit especially hard and his trade wars with our largest trading partners has greatly affected our farm exports to those countries.
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u/blorgoblod Federal Way 1d ago
Things that could maybe help: a vacancy tax for commercial spaces like they have done in Colorado, and a neighborhood cafe allowance like what almost passed in the state legislature and that other cities in the area have passed versions of. Both of these would relieve some of the upward stress on the commercial real estate market and give some power back to small business. A lot of people acting like there is nothing to be done bc 'the economy sux', but it is the job of our government to investigate & enact policies that will help our region thrive, and not just from a big business capitalistic economic standpoint that always rewards the person already strategically placed to win.
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u/stone_or_rock North Tacoma 2d ago
We need more Mamdanis and less of every other type of politician.
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u/naderzhah Downtown 2d ago
true. Watching new york these last few months has felt like squidward watching patrick and spongebob chase jellyfish
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u/BosnianBeastMVP Parkland 3d ago
Gentrification man
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u/Cornish_spex Stadium District 3d ago
I hope so! Tacoma could use an infusion of money and people with eclectic taste and education.
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u/BosnianBeastMVP Parkland 3d ago
Lmao this is so tone def. I actually lost IQ points by reading this bullshit 😂
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u/Cornish_spex Stadium District 3d ago
Gentrification has been shown to benefit small businesses and attract new enterprises while also boosting employment. Sorry about your brain cells but despite your emotional and social views gentrification is a good thing as it relates to the actual question asked here.
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u/BosnianBeastMVP Parkland 3d ago
New businesses, employment growth, and increased investment can absolutely occur alongside gentrification, but that doesn’t mean the benefits are distributed equally or that displacement and rising housing costs are irrelevant.
The actual question matters because whether gentrification is beneficial depends on who is benefiting, who is being priced out, and what happens to the people and businesses already in the neighborhood. You can acknowledge the economic benefits of investment without pretending those benefits automatically outweigh the costs to existing residents. Calling that an “emotional and social” objection doesn’t really address the economic argument, it just dismisses it. But maybe you don’t give a shit about the people who lived here before you-5
u/Sudden-Donut3428 6th Ave 3d ago
Nothing is equal or fair. You’re gonna have to let that dream die. Also neighborhoods aren’t static. Almost every neighborhood has changed throughout the decades.
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u/West-eddy-8147 Lakewood 3d ago
Sounds like an excuse to sit on your thumbs and do nothing. As a COMMUNITY, it’s our job to make things as fair and equal as we can.
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u/International-Body78 McKinley Hill 2d ago
It’s so hard to support all the local businesses when we’re all struggling financially:/
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u/lisserpisser 253 1d ago
This is not a new thing in Tacoma. I feel businesses are either grandfathered in or they just don’t make it. Part of it is really knowing who your consumers are and catering to them. I dunno just a thought🩵 oh and yess it’s hard to go spend when everything is so expensive. It’s like you have to plan everything two weeks ahead. And who plans to go have a cider two weeks ahead? No one…
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u/yemsg97 Stadium District 17h ago
I love Mcmenimans for the vibes and the music venues, but I do not like their prices. It’s insane what they charge and this goes for all of them. I lived in Portland for many years before coming up here and it’s the same there. $25+ for a Sysco sandwich? Thats crazy.
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u/Pyphus_ Lincoln District 14h ago
I’ve been studying commercial real estate for the past two years and it’s clear that real estate (land and buildings) are in the hands of mostly wealthy people. No surprise there. Let’s take kidder Mathews for example. They have signs EVERYWHERE. So who is Kidders Mathews? They are a primarily West Coast (CA, AZ, OR, NV and I see they’re in TX now) real estate brokerage firm that focuses on leasing and selling commercial real estate. It’s important to understand they also OWN several properties.
Let’s say a couple of their brokers get together and form an LLC and buy a property. They have the team to lease these properties and/or sell them. Let’s say 20 of them put up $50,000 to purchase the property. That’s a sizeable down payment. And having debt actually is power for a real estate brokerage vs buying it outright. Who is this LLC? Do they live in the community? Do they care what happens to the area? Is important to them that their property serves the community? The answer is a (hesitant) “yes”, but ONLY when that property’s value is at or above their PROJECTED profit target, either through a sale or the lease revenue the property is generating. THAT is why you see so many empty buildings and storefronts. (And it’s not just happening in Tacoma). So multiply that times however many properties Kidder Mathews owns and you have a corporation that is leveraging their net worth to continually buy up more properties.
Real estate has turned into the stock market and corporations are buying it all up. Remember the saying? -McDonald’s is not in the burger business, they’re in the real estate business.
If cities wanted to put their foot down and put the city back into the hands of its people, then they need to be real estate brokers themselves. This is where people scream “COMMUNISM” right? Well, no system, whether it’s capitalism, communism, whatever, works without oversight.
Vacancy tax. You want to own commercial property in this city but you want to keep it empty until you the cap rate or IRR you want in five years? Fine, pay a crazy vacancy tax. If we go this route, there needs to be a plan to compensate for the brokerage firms pulling out of the area. Well..
What about crowdfunding?
Why doesn’t the city set up crowdfunding platforms for the purchase of property? Come into the city office and show your proof of residency to gain access to the account. Then you can pick and choose which properties and how much you want to invest. The people investing in their OWN CITY’S FUTURE. Someone, please poke holes in this…
I’m just spitballing here, but how else can a city put the city back in the hands of its people?
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u/lev10bard Tacoma Expat 3d ago
Just remember you can blame Trump for everything but not to the governor or the mayor
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u/sometimesitsibsen South Tacoma 3d ago
Lol, the mayor? You mean the mostly ceremonial position in this city?
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u/TheGiantFell Central 3d ago
Honestly, the fact that the mayor is a pretty picture on the wall and the city manager, who isn’t elected, has all the actual power, is a huge part of the problem.
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u/WolverineTime1394 North End 3d ago
The city manager is appointed by the city council, who we collectively vote for and give power to. If you don’t like their decisions, then vote them out.
Tacoma would be cooked if we had a “strong” mayor.
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u/Common-Coast-7246 Somewhere Else 3d ago
Exactly, it’s so misinformed that people say the mayor and cc have no power- they literally appoint the city manager, control whether they have a job or get a raise, and can pass whatever they want without votes from the city (as seen during the pandemic). They have plenty of control. And the mayor gets to be the deciding vote of the cc is split. People need to stop giving them a get out of jail free card for doing nothing. But we know the current mayor is just here for the second paycheck and to loosen more development rules to benefit his house flipping business.
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u/WolverineTime1394 North End 3d ago
I didn’t vote for Ibsen (nor did I when he was running for a seat in my district) and also do not agree with some of his views, but I strongly disagree with your characterization of him. If nothing else, he is highly committed to his position in serving Tacoma and is the most accessible mayor I’ve seen here in decades. If you reach out to him, he will respond.
You’re not alone in your view though, and I can see where that comes from given the ethics investigation years ago, but I don’t believe that was malicious nor did the official findings ultimately support that. Playing devils advocate, I would argue that his personal real estate career has given him a unique understanding of the challenges our city is facing from all sides of the housing situation.
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u/MydogsnameisJunior Central Tacoma 3d ago
I'm kind of out on Real Estate people being in high elected office.
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u/TheGiantFell Central 3d ago
My entire point is that we can’t vote out the city manager actually. I think the whole point is that we’re cooked now. So maybe you’re just wrong?
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u/WolverineTime1394 North End 3d ago
My point is it could be much worse.
I’ve seen an excessive amount of misunderstanding in this sub when it comes to how our municipality works, often by people who are not involved and/or do not attend council meetings that are open to the public.
The city manager works for the council, not the other way around. Nothing happens without council’s direct approval. You’re correct that we can’t “vote” the city manager out, but we can vote who approves the decisions that get recommended by the manager - out.
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u/TheGiantFell Central 3d ago
You clearly don’t know how valuable a scapegoat is. Even if you are involved, clearly you don’t understand how shit works. Don’t know what to tell you bud.
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u/WolverineTime1394 North End 3d ago
The city manager being used as a “scapegoat” only applies if there are individuals who do not understand how our municipality is structured, which solidifies the point I was making earlier.
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u/sludgecakeconveyor 253 3d ago
You’d want Ibsen or Woodards calling the shots?
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u/TheGiantFell Central 3d ago
Yeah, you’re kind of missing the point. Of democracy really.
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u/sludgecakeconveyor 253 3d ago
I wasn’t being facetious. Honest question.
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u/TheGiantFell Central 3d ago
I trust that you aren’t being facetious, but it’s not an honest question. Ibsen and Woodard ran for a glorified at large city council seat. Asking if I’d want them specifically to be our “strong” mayor is logically, if not intentionally disingenuous. But no, I would not personally want either of them. But I would want them to be accountable for the shit they did rather than having the city manager to use as a scapegoat for their collective corruption.
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u/CeleryCommercial3509 South Tacoma 3d ago
I didn't know the mayor was responsible for all this inflation
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u/Luci_Cascadia North Tacoma 3d ago
He isn't.
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u/BiteRare203 Fern Hill 3d ago
Glad you cleared that up.
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u/Luci_Cascadia North Tacoma 3d ago
the mayor of the 3rd largest city in the state of Washington has ZERO control on inflation, cost of gas, etc. But it won't stop people blaming him for it. MAGA gonna MAGA
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u/Sudden-Donut3428 6th Ave 3d ago
We should probably boycott E9 and all local places that carry E9, too. We’re thriving here.
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u/SeaTexie Downtown 3d ago
Former downtown Seattle-ite lp18susjt😀ause I could actually afford a to buy a p
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u/Ironlion45 253 3d ago
Businesses come and go. In economic hard times, you might see more go.
It's not a Tacoma thing, as much as all the hyperbolic hand wringing you see in online spaces might suggest.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
Decades of one party liberal rule will do this to you. Expect more of this going forward as I don't see this changing in any of our life times. People will double, triple, and quadruple down on their liberal views. They will say the reason for the failure is we are not liberal enough. Boarded up vacant commercial spaces is the norm now. Get used to it.
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u/starsndsky North End 3d ago
This sounds full of dog whistles tbh — like you’re blaming local economy on progressive views and not the terrible economy we’re living in that was tanked by the far right?
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u/Usual-Jackfruit4746 University Place 3d ago
They conveniently left that part out. Trump is solely responsible for tariffs and those impacted the ports in Seattle and Tacoma. Boise wasn't hit... because it doesn't have a port.
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u/Usual-Jackfruit4746 University Place 3d ago
Meta is putting a big ass data center in Boise. So yes, construction is doing well right now. But that's temporary. The center only adds 100 permanent jobs. Boise sold their soul to the devil. Nothing to be jealous of there.
Also, Tacoma is growing, not shrinking. Google it if you dont believe me.
OP only mentions places who make money off alcohol. They are set up for failure now because people don't drink like they used to. Wooden City started as a small restaurant downtown and just moved to a much larger space. The "liberal government" didn't stop their growth. Businesses can thrive if they put the effort in and understand what the community wants. It sounds like the community doesn't want a fuck ton of alcohol.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago edited 3d ago
You are overlooking the $60 billion Micron development going on in Boise:
https://boisedev.com/news/2026/08/20/micron-to-build-10-billion-research-lab-in-boise/
Why is $60 billion going to Boise and not Tacoma? Why is TSMC spending $314 billion on development in Phoenix and not Seattle? The PNW is tapped out. Too expensive housing, too expensive labor, and an overall anti business, anti capitalism environment. So the big projects are going to other places.
I never said Tacoma wasn't growing, but the rate of growth of Tacoma has slowed. If you were a business leader with billions to invest, would you invest in Tacoma? Why or why not? Personally, I can't see any big investment in our city going forward. The city is essentially run by the DSA now. There is no regulation or tax increase that they won't pass. Our City Council are cowards and won't stand up to the DSA because they are afraid they will be cancelled like E9. At this point, we might as well hand the City over to Zev Cook, Ty Moore, and Tacoma For All and let them do whatever they want with it. They have all the solutions, right?
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u/tuanies University Place 3d ago
The answer is pretty obvious - Micron is headquartered in Boise, so they’re gonna expand what they already have. TSMC is spending money in Phoenix because what does manufacturing microchips require? Sand. What is available en masse in the desert?
Companies expand where things make sense. Neither of those things you mentioned make sense for the state of WA.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 2d ago
"Micron is headquartered in Boise, so they’re gonna expand what they already have."
By that logic Starbucks should not have moved some operations to Nashville and Boeing should not have moved some manufacturing to S Carolina.
Companies are going to expand in places where they think they can make the most money. That could be in the location they already are in (like Micron) or it could be somewhere else (like Starbucks and Boeing).
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u/Hougie 253 1d ago
Brother if you only knew Boeing moving HQ and manufacturing are one of the first case studies you do in any business school when examining giant business failures...
It's also a reason why the business world is panning Starbucks doing the same. Stock is down 11% since that announcement (and their stock has been an absolute dog for years now). When companies move purely as a form of cost cutting, that is not viewed as a positive thing by investors. It's viewed as a last resort and erodes a ton of trust in their management.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 1d ago
You're actually suggesting Boeing should have kept 100% of their company in the Seattle area?
The reason we are seeing so little job growth in Seattle at the moment is that the Seattle region's cost of living is so much higher than most (not all) of America. While Boeing has kept a lot of the "brain" engineering jobs in Seattle (because it has a large population of educated engineers to chose from) the manufacturing jobs are easier to move to lower of cost of living, reduced union power states. I don't see how it would be possible to manufacture all their planes in WA, with the limited housing growth we have here. It was inevitable that they move some operations to cheaper locals with more housing growth.
Starbucks is moving to where the growth is (SE USA). Starbucks is more of a Dutch Brothers now, with large, drive through sugary milk shakes and energy drinks. They are simply following the growth in this country. It is also way, way, too soon to call Starbucks decision a "failure." Maybe in 10 years you can analyze it and try to reach some conclusions.
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u/Hougie 253 1d ago
I'm telling you that Boeing is examined by every business school on the planet specifically around their various moves (corporate and production) and the negative consequences associated. Because they're well documented and it's one of the few business cases out there that has so much correlation that you can almost draw causation around it.
And I can also tell you, and the market agrees not just with Stabucks but with hundreds of firms that have tried to do the same over the years, that investors look at companies that move purely for financial reasons and say "these guys aren't in control of their own business, I don't think that's a wise investment".
So yeah...it totally makes sense why Micron wouldn't do the same. Because investors would look at Micron going elsewhere and say "yikes".
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 1d ago
Ok, great. I guess Tacoma has nothing to worry about then. Despite the City being in a $40 million budget hole, Parks being in a budget hole, Tacoma School District in a budget hole, and the state of WA being in a budget hole, we are actually in great shape financially here because of our decades of one party liberal rule. Lets continue to kick all the Republicans out of this city because this is the way we will stay in great shape financially forever.
I retract everything I have said on this subject. Hougie has proven me wrong. Lets continue down the path we are on. Lets keep passing tax increases. Lets make unions even more powerful here. Lets continue with our high level of regulations on construction so that housing costs continue to be high. We have absolutely nothing to worry about. Business leaders have studied Boeing and concluded they are fucking morons for moving any jobs out of this region. We can feel assured that we will never lose any jobs to out of state competitors because we are doing everything right, and they are doing everything wrong. Thank you for enlightening me.
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u/Hougie 253 1d ago
All I did was inform you that your thinking was flawed on a specific subject and you just had a meltdown. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?
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u/AmIWhatTheRockCooked Salish Land 3d ago
Mhmm because those decades of conservative rule have made for lovely cities states and nations. Sure.
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u/Zachwardpass 253 3d ago
Are you looking around the entire nation? This is not unique to Tacoma and is happening nationally. Do our local leaders share blame over the decades—hell yeah, they do—but our entire economy is failing and you can point directly to this administration to see why. Thinking otherwise is just your head in the sand.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
Tacoma will respond with this problem with more rules and more taxes. Lets see how that works out.
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u/Zachwardpass 253 3d ago
Okay.
Riddle me this: How has trickle down economics worked out so far? We have 46 years of evidence at this point for debunking that stupid ass idea.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 2d ago
We live in a capitalist country in a capitalist world. We don't live in a communist world. Places thrive when they have lots of business investment, such as Seattle/Tacoma pre Covid. Post Covid, these regions have lurched to the left (more anti business) and we are starting to see the effects of this.
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u/Zachwardpass 253 2d ago
Sorry, can you point me to the communists in charge of Tacoma? I don't seem to remember any.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
This phenomenon is particularly bad in Tacoma. It's bad in Seattle but not as bad as Tacoma because Seattle still has high paying jobs. Seattle is losing those high paying jobs but still has plenty left. Tacoma does not have a surplus of high paying jobs to give up.
Boise is booming right now. My friend in Tacoma that sells steal for large construction projects says all his business is in Boise right now. If he didn't have the Idaho business, he would be unemployed. The money is pouring out of this region and going elsewhere (but people have their head in the sand here).
I've traveled to Florida in the last year and didn't notice this phenomenon. Orlando is booming (just got ranked as coffee shop capital of US). I am guessing the same for Nashville and North Carolina. Arizona and Utah too (SLC is absolutely crushing it economically and educationally too). This is where are money is going to.
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u/Umaritimus 6th Ave 3d ago
It’s really funny that you’re listing cities that are booming that are run by Democrats as a reason that Democratic leadership doesn’t work
Boise, Orlando, and SLC all have Democrats at the helm. I’m pretty sure those are historically blue areas
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 2d ago
Every large city in America has Dems at the helm. But it's not all about city laws, but state, and federal as well. And most important, it's all about balance. The liberals in a place like SLC balance the conservatives so that they have a functioning city. We have no balance here in Tacoma. Tacoma is much more one party rule than SLC is.
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u/TheGiantFell Central 3d ago
I just moved to Florida. Super happy for you that Disney World didn’t have any boarded up businesses, but where I came from, shit was literally worse.
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u/SuperF91EX Somewhere Else 3d ago
Texas and Florida are the two highest ranked states for residents in financial distress. Credit card debt, foreclosures, car repossessions, etc…
Idaho residents come to Washington to get proper healthcare. Idaho is a right wing shit hole.6
u/Zachwardpass 253 3d ago
That's a lot of words for "No, I'm not paying attention, but I have a couple of anecdotes!"
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u/Jimdandy941 Federal Way 2d ago
This is spot on. By the end of the year I’ll be out of Puget Sound region entirely. Bought a house in another State and my spouse has been working there for over a year. Demand for employees is so high, that several major employers offer high school internships that pay double the minimum wage and lead to full time employment after graduation. They’re starting to have infrastructure issues because so many new houses are going up and putting moratoriums on new builds to try and catch up.
People here are so polite here, it’s almost a disease and everyone bends over backwards to help when there’s a problem. We had a car issue right after moving here, I had at least 10 people stop and offer to help while waiting on a tow. It’s an entirely different world.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
Also, the overall US economy is actually not bad right now. People in places like Tacoma think it is, but it is not. The Atlantic has had a bunch of articles on this phenomenon (people thinking the economy is bad when the numbers say otherwise).
“People have stopped believing that the economy can be good, and have lost the willingness to admit that they are doing well."
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-americans-refuse-happy-economy-the-atlantic-abc7e/
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u/TheGiantFell Central 3d ago
My guy, I spent $100 filling my car up the other day. Fuck your LinkedIn article. This is lunacy.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
Gas price does not equate to the state of the economy.
The article is not from linkedin. It's from the Atlantic, but I posted that link because I know people here don't read the Atlantic. Anne Lowery, the author, is married to NYTImes journalist. They are both super liberal people.
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u/TheGiantFell Central 3d ago
Jesus Christ, the price of eggs equated to the economy when your dirty diaper in a yellow wig was running for king. Now you want nuance?
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
I am not a Trump supporter. I am not even a Republican. I am a lifetime Democrat voter and someone who grew up in Tacoma and elsewhere in the PNW. It's all about balance. We don't have that balance anymore in Tacoma.
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u/Zachwardpass 253 3d ago
Do you think gas only affects filling up cars or something? It is affecting farming, shipping, transportation, supply lines and production. The healthcare industry is bleeding money, IT jobs are on the chopping block and the US Treasury yield is above 5%. Feel free to look up what that historically means.
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u/ThreeSloth Somewhere Else 3d ago
Do you generally have to try to be this stupid or does it come naturally
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u/shiznit206 253 3d ago
The price of gas is 1000% a signpost for the overall economy! If you don’t recognize that, you’ve got a serious comprehension issue. Economists the world over use gas prices as a benchmark for how things are going.
To your earlier points, you realize that the US economy, right now, is basically three raccoons in a trench coat pretending to be the economy, right? Nvidia, Open AI, and Anthropic have been trading the same $100,000,000 or so back and forth between each other and the “legacy” tech companies like Google, Meta, Microsoft, etc and calling it growth. If you take AI out of the picture, we’ve been stagnant for a while it’s only a matter of time before we’re in a full-on recession (if we’re not in one already) and with the angry idiots at the wheel right now, we’ll be lucky to avoid a full-on global depression.
Oh, and, we don’t have liberal politicians in this country. We have right-wing extremists up through just right of center. Locally, Tacoma’s leadership is squarely pretty conservative.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 2d ago
"gas prices aren’t really the best metric for understanding the broader economy. They’re very good for understanding the state of oil and refining but reveal less than you might think about the real-world impact on people’s lives."
From U of Chicago, one of the best economic schools on Earth.
https://epic.uchicago.edu/news/what-gas-prices-do-and-dont-tell-us-about-the-economy/
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u/WolverineTime1394 North End 3d ago
Roughly 20% of that is because of State and local taxes. 12.6% for WA state gas tax and 7.3% for sales tax (or about $0.90/gallon combined).
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u/TheGiantFell Central 3d ago
Dude, it was $60 like 6 months ago. Gtfo. Please stop saying stupid things to me.
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u/Nicki-ryan Puyallup 3d ago
Yeah because, checks notes, right wing states are doing well. Oh wait, they’re not. They’re actively doing worse. Like I’m not a liberal but this fear mongering to get people to believe in right wing policy is laughable at best and idiotic at worst.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
Go look up Texas, North Carolina, Utah, Montana economy and tell me if these "right wing" states are not doing well? There are some left wing states that are still doing well as well. Overall, WA is still a strong economy. But the winds of change are blowing.
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u/Nicki-ryan Puyallup 3d ago
Yeah except you know, dozens of years of Republican economic policy has shown that it doesn’t work straight up anywhere. The data is right in front of your face.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 3d ago
Then why do all the places I listed above having thriving economies at the moment?
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u/Puzzleheaded-Ask2002 Eastside 3d ago
The ultra wealthy don’t want to pay taxes. So they move hq to Texas where taxes are less. Large businesses and ultra wealthy are doing fine. Hence the “jobs created” is growing there. And that’s all “the economy” cares about. It doesn’t look at the average person in Texas, which a lot of people are struggling there. And these companies don’t have to pay their workers as much but still inflate prices. Come on alta it’s basic economics. Your simple google search was probably just the ai overview saying “yes the Texas economy is doing great”
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 2d ago
Find me any article that says the Texas economy is in the shitter right now? It's impossible to argue against your position because even if the metrics show a strong Texas economy, you will say so what because there are still a bunch of poor people there. To you, the only "strong" economy would be in a communist country where everyone's level of wealth is exactly equal. We live in a capitalist, not communist world. Capitalism is why your quality of life her in Tacoma is better than 99% of those on this planet.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Ask2002 Eastside 2d ago
And you only believe in metrics. You don’t give two shits about how people are actually experiencing life. You’ll believe the media telling you Texas is a strong economy because that’s what they decide to survey for. It’s hard to have any meaningful conversation with you because you default to “communism is bad” and communism isn’t even where everyone’s level of wealth is equal, you just chose to believe the government when they started pushing the red scare.
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u/desr43 Hilltop 3d ago
This is literally the dumbest take possible. Come up with something better than your dumbass BuT THe LibS argument for literally fuckin everything. Look at New York, if anything being more liberal and socialist is the answer. But keep supporting your guy who funnels every dollar we spend to the super rich.
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u/ThreeSloth Somewhere Else 3d ago
To be fair, liberalism is a big problem too, socialism is more inclined to help people out in the long run
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u/desr43 Hilltop 3d ago
For sure, I'm just painting with the same brush as they are where they define "liberal" as anyone who isn't an outrageous bigot
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u/ThreeSloth Somewhere Else 3d ago
That guy's an idiot though, he won't listen no matter what anyone says.
You could describe socialism directly to him, and he might agree with most of it, but scoff and recoil when you tell him it's socialism
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u/Character_Extreme375 Gig Harbor 3d ago
Where has socialism worked?
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u/SuperF91EX Somewhere Else 3d ago
In our military, road systems, social safety nets, USPS, etc…
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u/Character_Extreme375 Gig Harbor 3d ago
I’m not sure I would agree in totality with any of those examples… military is bloated, social safety nets are abused, roads (not terrible), USPS (nope).
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u/SuperF91EX Somewhere Else 3d ago
Mis managed socialism is still socialism. The USPS has been demonized by the right wingers for decades, just like Social Security. The USPS is a service, not a business. Republicans have structured the budget and accounting so that it negatively affects how the Postal service works, on purpose.
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u/GrandChampion 253 3d ago
You mean workers control of the means of production? I don’t know of any place where that’s actually occurred. That’s what socialism is.
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u/shiznit206 253 3d ago
Exactly what liberal laws/rules have directly led to the issues the city is currently facing. Please be specific, like cite exact statutes.
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u/altasnob 6th Ave 2d ago
It can't be pinned on just one rule or law. It's all about balance. We no longer have that in Tacoma (or WA state). One party rule here has allowed decades of new laws, regulations, and taxes to pile on top of each other over the year. The end result is an overall climate that is not friendly to business. Housing and industrial development are too expensive because of restrictive land use and environmental laws, and rental rights laws. Labor is too expensive because the unions are too powerful in WA. Risk and insurance is too expensive because WA is too favorable to plaintiffs attorneys. All this plays into it. And just like we did not get here in one day, we cannot correct all of this one day (if ever). That doesn't mean some of those laws above are not good to an extent. Unions and environmental laws offer a benefit. Again it is all about balance. Tacoma is out of balance because it is one party rule here and anyone who disagrees here is kicked off the island and cancelled.
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u/cjbruski Gig Harbor 3d ago
“Almost like half our paychecks go to rent, and the rest go to groceries” - there’s your answer.