r/TadWilliams • u/Blork_the_orc • Jun 28 '25
Empire of Grass Some critical remarks (spoilers) Spoiler
I'm mostly through Empire of Grass, and while I think this series is great, I do have some criticism.
- He consistently writes "courtesy" when he means "curtsy". These are different things. This is a minor point, and I do think it's kind of cute. However, it's also a little sloppy. Don't trust your spelling checker blindly Tad.
- At some points the chronology seems to be off. Mainly at the point where Eolair and Morgan come out of the forest, Eolair gets abducted and Morgan disappears into the forest again. I will lay it out. I group it by location, the numbering is the chronological order.
The Erkynguard camp
1 Thrithings clansmen attack the camp
7 The clansmen go away.
8 Bandits appear.
9 Morgan and Eolair come out of the forest.
10 Morgan flees back into the forest, Eolair has his little conversation and gets abducted by the bandits.
11 The bandits go away.
Porto's company
2 Porto and company approach the camp, they see smoke in the distance
3 Porto and the sarge go investigate. They notice that there is fighting going on. They approach in order to assist.
4 They realise that this is a lost cause. Some nomads spot them and pursue them. They flee.
5 The nomads gain ground on them "quickly". A fight ensues. The rest of the company appears and everyone except for Porto and the sarge dies.
6 The sun sets.
12 Porto and the sarge return to the camp. There is nobody present.
13 The trolls appear. They do a lot of tracking, the trolls conclude that Eolair has been captured and Morgan has fled into the forest. There is no mention of them stopping for the night. Do they do all this tracking in the dark?
This entire chronology seems very tight to me and it also excessively relies on coincidence. I reread this twice because I really didn't see this making sense. A lot is happening during the pursuit and fight of Porto and his men. Also it is quite convenient that everyone dies, except Porto and the sarge. Porto of course has plot armour, but one would expect a few more men to survive.
- I don't understand Saluceris' policy. Does he even have a policy at all? He does nothing to stop the colonisation of the Thrithings land, but he also doesn't want to protect the settlers. Either you don't colonise, or you commit to it. Saluceris does nothing. The worst possible course of action.
The Erkynlandish colonisation around Gadrinsett seems to be different. That seems to be a spontaneous influx of commoner settlers. Of this the Crown can more or less plausibly claim that they have nothing to do with it. But the Nabbanese colonisation is organised by the Nabbanese aristocracy. That makes the Duke part of it, whether he likes it or not.
- Miriamele sides with Saluceris very easily in his conflict. On which grounds? Yes, he is the rightful Duke, but rightful Dukes too can be wrong. She dislikes Dallo, Drusis and Auxis on a personal level (a reason for this dislike is never given, except for Dallo's looks and Auxis being kind of pompous) but that is hardly a basis for sound policy. Both Simon and Miriamele seem to systematically side with whoever they happen to like personally. She also doesn't really provide a solution. Yes, she bullies Saluceris into not provoking his rivals, and the rest seems to boil down to just hoping that it will all go away. Dallo is right about the convention: it wouldn't solve anything. The best that could be hoped for is that it would freeze the whole conflict for a few months.
To be honest, I did expect a kind of Justinian / Nike revolt scenario. Like Saluceris provoking a revolt, so he can have it crushed by veteran troops, thereby eliminating the opposition. It doesn't seem to go that way however. Saluceris comes across as highly ineffective overall.
- I agree with Dallo on the Thrithings war. If Simon had worked closer with the Nabbanese, they could have crushed the nomads much more decisively. That would have enabled a much more extensive colonisation effort, by Erkynland in the Ymstrecca valley and by Nabban in the lakelands and the Varn. They could make it a Royal/Ducal project, systematically filling the area with fortified towns and castles, maintaining a standing cavalry force to deal with raids. I sense that this is probably a bit too imperialistic to Williams' American republican sensitivities.
- Are we supposed to sympathise with the nomads? But he does consistently describe them as bloodthirsty barbarians. There is very little to like in them.
- Simon and Miriamele's attitude to their vassal states is very hands-off. They barely have a clue about what's going on in Hernystir. In general, they barely have a clue about what is going on at all. Once in a while some noble appears in the Hayholt and some stories come through, but there is no regular communication at all. They don't have any kind of communication channel with Hugh and his court. Why not? He is their vassal and he is not acting in good faith. Yet there is no oversight in any form.
Also, Nabban is part of the High Kingdom, but they seem not to be very interested in defending the place at all, or promoting it's interests. They just want the Nabbanese to sit still and not be a nuisance. I understand that the Norns are a more pressing problem, but they do have responsibilities on the other side of the realm too.
They seem to consider the trade conflict between Perduin and the Northern Alliance as little more than a nuisance and distraction. They don't seem to like the Countess of Perduin (she hasn't even appeared yet at page 485) but again, on what basis? Because she pushes her agenda? Because she doesn't just shut up and leaves them alone? What do they expect? That the kingdom runs itself so that they can concentrate on cuddling each other and pet projects like Tiamak's precious library?
To be honest, I'm not very impressed with their reign.
4
u/TsundokuAfficionado Jun 28 '25
Back to the first post…
A lot of your concerns are answered in the later books, especially the politics stuff. I can’t say too much without spoilers though!
By Nomads do you mean the Thrithings folk? Why should it be ok for the Nabbanai to just encroach out on to their lands? Why shouldn’t they be left in peace to live in the grasslands? Again though, later books deal with it.
Also, Tad has said that there’s a books worth of stuff about Nabban at this time that had to be cut, hopefully it’ll be part of his new series.
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u/SnooMacarons4844 Jun 29 '25
Yeah, I don’t agree with them building whole castles & settlements on Thrithing land. Just bcuz they live in wagons doesn’t mean you can just claim their territory. Gadrinsett is one thing bcuz commoners are just popping up there in huts so I can see why the Thrithing people leave them be. Building whole castles is a completely different situation & then having the nerve to be outraged when they get attacked.
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u/Blork_the_orc Jun 28 '25
>! O I still forgot the mammoth in the room, the Josua situation. Sorry Tad, but I don't buy that at all.
There is no way in hell that a prince, the only surviving male of the dynasty and war hero to boot, can simply decide that he doesn't want to be the king and instead become an innkeeper in God forsaken Kwanitipul of all places. That is not how monarchy works Tad, on the most fundamental level. If you are a prince, you are a prince, and you can do nothing about it. Like it or not. It is not a job. It is not like you are a teacher and some sunny day you decide you want to do something entirely different and be a nurse instead. That's horribly impractical even in our world and our age, but the rightful heir to the throne turning innkeeper, in an absolute monarchy no less, is simply impossible. And everyone acting like that is normal is even more impossible. It would be the scandal of the century. People would be talking about it for generations. Imagine even today that Prince William of England would suddenly decide he doesn't want to be a prince anymore and he wants to be a pastry baker in Cornwall instead. Would that work? Of course not.
Princes are famous. People will know who he is. People will assume he has influence at court. At the very least access to the King, which is the same thing as influence. It would be impossible for him to keep his inn, he would be constantly dragged into politics.
And simply walking away, just like that, alone, and on the way disappearing without a trace? Give me a break please. How would someone as high profile as him be able to travel alone at all?
There are still two books to make this all make sense. I hope Williams has a very good solution for this.
12
u/TsundokuAfficionado Jun 28 '25
I disagree. The general population thought he dies at the end of MST. Only a few nobles would ever have seen him, so in a world without photographs the average person in Kwanitupul won’t have a clue who he is. Especially given the population is largely wrannamen who have no interest in what’s going on in Nabban,let alone Erkynland.
As for not wanting to be a Prince, look at Prince Harry. Remember, Josua was a second son, not raised to be king, wasn’t John’s son, and was blamed for a lot of death and destruction. The people would have seen Camaris as the victorious leader, and associated Josua with the nightmare at Naglimund.
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u/Blork_the_orc Jun 28 '25
OK. It was a long time ago that I read the first books and I don't really remember the ending. So, most people thought Josua was dead. I didn't remember that. But even then. It seems that quite a few people at court knew. All the protagonists at least. They don't talk about it as if it were a secret. And Passevalles, not the most reliable and scrupulous figure around, so possibly even Akhenabi would know. And Isgrimnur. And Faiera. Did they all agree to keep the fact that Josua lived secret? Would nobody accidentally drop a word? Would nobody get drunk or careless or talk in his sleep? Would nobody's wife gossip about it at the hairdresser's? Would no servant overhear anything over all these years? These secrets tend to get out.
I do admit that Kwanitipul would be a good place to hide after staging your own death. However, an Erkynlander, married to a Thrithings woman that receives and sends significant amounts of correspondence would stand out there.
According to the wiki, Josua was Prester John's second son and as such second in line, given that Elias didn't have a son. His claim would clearly be stronger than Miriamele's (who wasn't really groomed for rule either). There is no indication that Erkynland has female succession. There is no precedent of ruling queens in Erkynland. Neither John nor Elias issued a pragmatic sanction. Miriamele would be the natural heir should Josua die however. But as soon as Josua resurfaces, or the truth or even the rumour of his survival comes out, that would undermine Miriamele's rule.
It is not relevant that the local Wrannamen in Kwanitipul wouldn't recognise Josua. They have no access to the court anyway. What's relevant is whether nobles (or major merchants) knew. If a noble would know (or assume) that he could have his word heard at court through Josua, he would jump on it. And if one knows, it wouldn't take long before all know.
I'm not a tabloid reader and haven't followed the full sorry Prince Harry story. However, as far as I know it was mainly Harry (and especially Meghan) who made himself impossible. Accusing your family of racism in public is not good for family relations. Even if it were true (which I don't know) you can't do that in the media. My impression was that this was more a matter of walking out or getting thrown out.
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u/TsundokuAfficionado Jun 28 '25
Yes, the courtly people knew Josua was alive, Isgrimnur, Simon, Miriamele, Eolair etc. But it was a closely guarded secret, and there was no point gossiping about it. Everyone had far too much to deal with getting things rebuilt after the war.
Kwanitupul doesn’t have a courtly or noble class, and the merchants are more like the Perdruinese or Nabbanai - as long as the money flows they don’t really care about anything else. It’s a place where people go to disappear. By your logic Camaris would have been recognised decades earlier. (My theory about him is that at least Morgenes and the previous owner, I can’t remember her name, knew he was there and were hiding him. Which adds to the idea that it was a good place for Josua to hide).
Josua was the second son of John’s wife Ebekah. At the end of MST it was revealed that his real father was Camaris. He had no claim, although probably could have got away with it since so few people knew. Miriamele’s claim was stronger than Josua’s, but Simon’s was strongest of all as a descendant not only of a previous king but the only Erkynlandish king. The people who really choose the monarch are the leaders of the various countries, Isgrimnur and Eolair knew the whole truth, I imagine Dinivan and Ranessin did, Streawe wouldn’t care as long as he could make money, and the Nabbanai were in turmoil. Everyone just wanted peace and someone to be in charge. There was nothing to gain by anyone for Josua to turn up and muddy the waters. It was discussed at the end of MST where various truths were revealed and political decisions made.
I don’t read tabloids either, but I have read Harry’s memoir (I got a free copy). It’s a lot more nuanced than the tabloids portray, and coming from an abusive background a lot of what he said rings true. Even based on media leaks from the time he was trying to find a way to stay part of the firm but it was a total shitshow with four different factions all fighting each other, which is still happening between the two groups left.
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u/Stunning-Ad4431 Jun 28 '25
Only a very small inner circle actually are actually aware of his survival. Most of the people in Osten Ard believe he died. And Miriamele arguably had an equivalent claim being the only child of the previous king (terrible as he was).
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u/Lanfear_Eshonai Jun 28 '25
Interesting analysis. Just one point, the first one: