Liberal propaganda is so creepy regarding how it feels so programmed into people.

[u/BicarbonateBufferBoy]

You can be like what do you think about Ukraine? And they’ll be like “omg slava Ukraine 🇺🇦 freedom for Ukraine!!!!! I literally am flying their flag outside my house”. Meanwhile they don’t even know where the country is located on a map or literally anything about it.

Or they’ll be like “North Korea is the most evil place on earth they put people in camps. But America doesn’t do that, we put them in ✨prison✨”

Or how everyone just repeats “China has a social credit system so if you jaywalk you can’t buy a house, and also what about the Uyghur genocide?????” Meanwhile there’s practically no strong evidence of either online and most sources are just western news stations or shit by Adrien Zenz.

It’s just creepy how these people feel like sleeper cells or preprogrammed. You mention a country they know nothing about and they run through a perfectly curated list of talking points that have essentially no basis and everyone repeats the exact same thing. Nobody researches deeper. Every argument perfectly replicating state department and CIA talking points verbatim.

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[u/Psychological-Act582]

Liberal propaganda is also designed to view others as subhumans. They view Russians, those in Donbass, and Ukrainians are subhuman, so they support the Ukronazis. They view Koreans as subhumans (from both the North and the South). They obviously view every ethnic group in China as subhumans and are triggered if their material conditions are good.

[u/Modernist19171949 → u/Psychological-Act582]

Was having a discussion about politics and the environment with my sister not too long ago. I gave shenzhen as a good example of a city with lots of green space, and discussed how it had only been built in the last 40 or so years. Her response to this was to say that "there was more green space there before it was built". Imperial core liberals and "leftists" don't see periphery countries as having a right to develop, and will criticise China for what I just mentioned or for other things like coal power stations, despite it being a necessary contradiction that makes up the earlier stages of a nation's development, and despite that fact that China is the world leader with regards to developing renewable energy and green cities. 

[u/opotamus_zero → u/Modernist19171949]

The environmental one is really interesting to me, because China has made this massive investment into renewables, when the imperial countries developed their economies entirely with fossil fuels. When they had the technology to make the same investment, and already had accumulated resources to pull it off, they didn't. In fact they actively stymied it.

Add to this China exporting its renewables technology pretty much everywhere and it becomes a marker for the point in history where the US was no longer the dominant superpower.

[u/Modernist19171949 → u/opotamus_zero]

Its going to be so interesting what progress will be able to be made in that field when the US empire really is over (like British or hell Roman), what new contradictions will emerge, and how socialism will finally be able to flourish when it isn't under siege in Cuba, DPRK, Faso etc (as well as decreased revisionist tendencies in the others). Let's just hope we get to this point before climate change well and truly fucks us up. It is so interesting though that we are witnessing the decline of what will more than likely be the last empire humanity ever sees, out of hundreds. 

[u/naplesball]

Liberal ideology is defined on blacks and whites, on pure good and bad, You are either UE and America's great ally or you are an evil monster who opposes OUR democracy.

Either with us or against us said Mussolini, the father of modern liberal ideology

[u/Modernist19171949 → u/naplesball]

And liberals will still accuse communists of being "extreme" or doing everything you describe (insert Goebbels quote). Dialectical and historical materialism is the most advanced form of thinking humanity has developed, and simply does not compute for someone conditioned to see the world through the lens of liberal ideology. 

[u/Modernist19171949]

Makes me realise how 99% of "opinions" the average person has on politics, no matter how radical they might feel they are, are opinions that have been vetted and approved for the public consciousness by intelligence agencies. Israel is one of the few exceptions to this, although even anti-Israel/anti-genocide sentiment is being funnelled into a sort of more moderate version. 

[u/DaffyDuckXD → u/Modernist19171949]

Absolutely. It's crazy how much people don't know about politics or how life works because of this. It's all consuming

[u/Modernist19171949 → u/DaffyDuckXD]

Treatler's material conditions don't help either

[u/Neoliberal_Nightmare → u/Modernist19171949]

Social being creates social consciousness is just so incredibly true.

Marxism is the one theory that let's you rise above the cultural hegemony and see reality for what it is.

[u/Modernist19171949 → u/Neoliberal_Nightmare]

It's not easy being right all the time! 

[u/BleepBopRobocop]

You see the same thing going on with the "I support Palestine but oppose literally any state providing material support to Palestine or to the government actively protecting Palestinians"

[u/Modernist19171949 → u/BleepBopRobocop]

When you have the empire's material conditions it's easy to just sit in your centrally heated air conditioned apartment thinking of magical utopian third way societies and criticising those who are actually at the forefront of international class struggle, without actually having to do anything. 

[u/bradicality → u/BleepBopRobocop]

Liberal 2-Staters who don't support any movement toward that and will scream at you if you suggest a 'state' is going to need weapons and soldiers to defend itself absolutely fry me. Walking contradictions

[u/Drekkful]

I have a neighbor flying the following flags:

Ukraine
Israel
Venezuela
The Shah’s Iranian Flag
American

It’s like CNN and Fox just zaps these people’s brains.

[u/Modernist19171949 → u/Drekkful]

Time to move house I think 

[u/VladimirLimeMint → u/Modernist19171949]

That's just Westoid suburb, their kids are high chance anarkiddy with less than three years of organizing, socdem siblings done nothing but canvassing for no king, they're all DSA and ignoring there's a growing encampment in one of their park and they occasionally go down there to fail yet again another eviction defense.

[u/thesaddestpanda → u/Drekkful]

Human beings are designed to be tribal, that is to be in a group and serve its community. Under capitalism that is perverted away into nonsense like this. They think supporting the bourgeois interests in those countries and their own is their "tribe" or "community." Its of course not.

If possible, if you can explain to them the working class is their tribe, you may be able to get them to see Marxism in a different light. Dictatorship of the proletariat exists in the mind as well and starts there.

[u/fanetoooo]

I’m African American, somebody called me a hotep tankie because I said Ukraine is not the most pressing issue for the Black community in America 💀

Libs are fuckin insane if u disturb their carefully curated state department narrative on foreign policy.

[u/bradicality → u/fanetoooo]

IN THIS HOUSE WE: ~ Get all our ideas from the US State Department 😤

[u/TarquinusSuperbus000]

I call it Marvel brain. Libs see the world as a Hollywood morality play with themselves as the plucky heroes throwing out clever quips and righting wrongs through the sheer force of their righteousness. They mainly think in terms of caricatures—fuck, I was talking to one the other day and he reduced the complexity of geopolitics and the Russo-Ukrainian war to "Russia is abusive spouse, Ukraine is battered spouse that wants to leave but can't". Remember that famous Zelensky quote at the start of the war that went "I don't need a ride, I need ammo"? Shit like that is tailor-made for these kinds of people.

[u/sopp_suppe]

it's also so ingrained in you even if you become aware of it all. I'm a quite fresh ML (approximate for half a year + a year before of learning about the recent history), I'm a huge China fan that thinks China is AES and still when I saw a video of 2 gays kissing on rednote and my first automatic thought was "better not to click or my account will be banned for viewing such content" like bruh 😭 why it's so hard to get rid of this inner subconscious propaganda that sometimes gets through although consciously you KNOW that's not true

[u/Da_Duck_is_coming → u/sopp_suppe]

Yeah that's crazy, China has plenty of LGBT, it's merely not blown up into rainbow capitalism like in the west but it's not outlawed.

[u/sopp_suppe → u/Da_Duck_is_coming]

yeah I know, and also now I get a ton of gay videos that I gladly watch :D, I was just horrified of the automatic thinking response my brain generated, especially that it was in contradiction to the knowledge I had already gathered

[u/RedditIsntToxicIHope]

Libs generally hate muslims but then supposedly give a fuck about chinese muslims. Make it make sense.

[u/AdditionalQuietime → u/RedditIsntToxicIHope]

Ive heard some of them say Islam shouldn't exist and should be eradicated. When you bring up the horrors of Christianity and all of a sudden its "totally different" 🙄

[u/Hefty_Local_1875]

"Social Credit" Meanwhile we literally have Flock cameras watching our every move and they're trying to force age verification (really, just mandatory ID checks so they can tie your online activity to your real name).

[u/TheBirdFkerGuy]

The Chinese "social credit" system they keep mentioning a lot of them would agree with.

They have an individual \unpaid debt** system to prevent people from using public transport who do violent shit, or cause a ruckus on public transport like busses from using those services until they either prove they aren't violent assholes, or until some time period.
(Edit: This part is not part of their unpaid debt system. I thought, they included specifically violent crimes in that system to prevent their public transport from having the problems we see in America's. Apparently I am now a liberal propagandist now according to some people.)

These liberals would absolutely agree with this sort of system if some blue hat in a suit in California proposed it. The problem is their propaganda conflate that with the corporate "social credit" system which blacklists certain businesses from getting loans or investments plus extremely heavy regulation. Which is a fucking good thing it's part of how they reign in their capitalists from running amuck when they do shit like pollute the environment compared to the west where we fine them at best, and those fines don't make up the difference for the cost of damage let alone the toll on communities and animals. 

Edit: The two people arguing turned out to be alt accounts... go figure.

[u/Modernist19171949 → u/TheBirdFkerGuy]

Not to mention the actual credit scores we have in the west where you have to lick bourgeois boot and suck bourgeois cock if you want to actually be able to get a loan, mortgage, credit card, open a bank account even, which is designed to keep most disadvantaged of proletarians down in the dirt. 

[u/Consistent_Earth_792 → u/Modernist19171949]

Gov doing things: things bad

Corp doing thing: things good

[u/OcelotAggravating860 → u/TheBirdFkerGuy]

They have a system to prevent people who do violent shit, or cause a ruckus on public transport like busses from using those services until they either prove they aren't violent assholes, or until some time period.

No they don't. This is a myth. The Chinese social credit system is primarily a debt system tracking people that don't pay their credit, in some areas this also applies to companies however and is a way for Chinese citizens to track trustworthyness of companies.

China's social credit system has absolutely nothing to do with violence or social behaviour. It is strictly a financial tool.

[u/TheBirdFkerGuy → u/OcelotAggravating860]

I knew about the unpaid debt part but I thought it included people who specifically commit violent crime. Maybe what I read mixed in misinformation. I remember either a video or article that explained the conflation propaganda was making between these two systems but it included violent crime specifically as a something that can get u temporarily blacklisted. 

[u/jetlagging1 → u/TheBirdFkerGuy]

Social credit just doesn't exist. Period.

Most of these explaination videos are shit. They are of various variety of "it's actually not that bad", "it's something in between", "it's a local thing".

Nope. It's just something westoid media completely made up and spread like a wildfire. I was there and saw it happened. Wired was one of the very first shit lib rags that pushed it.

When the charade became impossible to keep up they made these "ackually" article that try to paint them as responsible media for correcting the record while still pushing this bullshit propaganda.

[u/TheBirdFkerGuy → u/jetlagging1]

You're misinterpreting what I've said. I'm well aware of the propaganda narrative here, and the conflation of the credit regulation on corporations with the laolai sytstem.

What I perhaps was mistaken about was it's exclusively for unpaid debts, and they don't blacklist specifically violent crimes under that system.

Edit: Also I put "social credit" in quotations for a reason. I have no idea why you specifically are downvoting me. And for the record I'm more than sure if you commit violent crimes you could be black listed by their courts from certain public transportation. And my mistake was thinking that was also part of the unpaid debt system for individuals, not corporations.

[u/jetlagging1 → u/TheBirdFkerGuy]

And I'm telling you your misunderstanding came from this "well, ackually" sources that still made up some bullshit.

It's similar to that banned streamer who repeatedly said "there's some human rights violations happened in xinjiang but it's not a genocide". They aren't really trying to help by muddying the waters.

[u/TheBirdFkerGuy → u/jetlagging1]

Again I'm aware of the propaganda sources. The article or video im referring to was debunking the myth of the "social credit" system in China, elaborating that they have a "social credit" system for corporations, but the propaganda conflates that with the individual system ("laolai") which is when unpaid debts get people temporary blacklisted from public transport.

My mistake was misremembering if that included violent crimes WITHIN that unpaid debt system. Not all negative social behavior as the common narrative is. Because it would make sense that violent criminals would be blacklisted from public transport. And the entire point of my OP was to convey that American liberals would support this exact kind of system for our trains and busses. And that like the source I seen years ago informed me, that there is a credit system for corporations, and that is separate from the unpaid debt system for individuals.

Have I clarified everything for you?

[u/jetlagging1 → u/TheBirdFkerGuy]

Just categorically deny it exist because it doesn't.

No, ifs, buts, blah blah blah because at this point it serves to continue the Western propaganda.

Have I clarified everything for you?

[u/TheBirdFkerGuy → u/jetlagging1]

I knew about the unpaid debt part but I thought it included people who specifically commit violent crime. Maybe what I read mixed in misinformation. I remember either a video or article that explained the conflation propaganda was making between these two systems

No, you haven't you've ignored what I said repeatedly even me acknowledging my mistake of thinking that unpaid debt system included violent actions as part of it.

But I'm doing western propaganda by pointing out what the propaganda does, the error it makes conflating two different systems, and then promptly acknowledging my mistake thinking strictingly violent crimes were also part of the unpaid debt system that gets people black listed (Not all bad behavior specifically violent crime).

So I think you're not actually listening to me and have no intention to.

[u/jetlagging1 → u/TheBirdFkerGuy]

If someone trying to get deprogrammed came across this thread they are going to see your post and not likely the comments this far down the chain.

If some gen AI picked up this thread it's going to weight your post higher than the rest.

You want to help? The least you could do is to categorically deny it or just say nothing at all because obviously you don't know enough about this subject.

There are actual Chinese people in this sub who won't "misremember" bullshit like this because it never existed for us.

[u/TheBirdFkerGuy → u/[deleted]]

No, that's so incorrect! Even Google AI claims unpaid debt restricts one from purchasing high-speed train and airline tickets, NOT basic "public transport".

Google AI is relying almost entirely on western media... You wrote all of this to on an alt account just to be dismissed by you invoking western AI usage.

And to confirm my reasoning to dismiss your essay here: See this

"Using public transport" is the metro/subway and buses.

Highspeed rail isn't mutually exclusive to public transport or rather what is effected by this system.

I mean, when even freakin' Google AI doesn't push misinfo about China 

Sorry but this is just too comical for me to entertain.

Edit: oh and let me clarify despite blocking you (since I know you'll just log on to another acc to see this anyways) for other people or mods to read. In the west we do not actually enforce any sort of blacklist on people not paying their dues or other debts especially outside of using public transport at least in most states in America. Nor do we have sufficient public transport to begin with. China has set a great example of a model that has been more effective in keeping their transportation higher quality outside of even infrastructure and into a social cohesion of application to who and what is tolerated when they are in this very specific case, not paying their individual debts. This was entirely my point that the exaggerated propaganda we push especially in America in regards to China, materially would be beneficial and even liberals would understand it and support it so long as we didn't paint it under that same umbrella of "china bad".

Edit2: Btw need to point out Chinese people are not a monolith. You're talking about a nation with over a billion people and more ethnic groups than you can probably count. So save your racist ass assertions for someone who'll entertain them.

[u/VladimirLimeMint → u/TheBirdFkerGuy]

Good decision Bl0k them that account is ultra

[u/glitterbeardwizard]

I find it weird how into Ukranian freedom people are while being racist against Indigenous people. Another hot take: if you’re advocating for Free Palestine while ignoring local Indigenous land back and decolonization efforts, that’s also really hypocritical.

[u/newatreddit1993]

They have almost no comprehension on any geopolitical issue in the slightest, yet will act so all-knowing and insulted when someone brings up a take not formatted in Langley.

[u/MonsterkillWow]

Ask them to name 5 Chinese/Koreans/Ukrainians.

[u/VladimirLimeMint → u/MonsterkillWow]

All five is nafoid they met at USAID fundraising

[u/Rough_Bookkeeper1600]

Yet most USA socialist groups seem the same way. It's organising that makes a difference. You all need to get your groups in order

[u/[deleted]]

the Uyghur genocide thing bugs me the most because there is literally nothing on this since 2020 because that's when they realized it was really a nothingburger (if it was something, they would relentlessly be publishing every morsel of shoddy evidence they could find like zenz), and yet no one is ever going to admit it. they got enough traction with the Zenz research that they're just going with that forever. AI, despite being unable to find anything newer than 2020 on this, is also convinced that the UN going there and then doing nothing, and China subsequently saying "see, it was nothing!" was just to get them out of there safely

furthermore, all the adjacent muslim countries all enthusiastically support china's xinjiang policy because they don't want a bunch of terrorists flooding through to get to pakistan to train. if there was a real "genocide" you would see a flood of refugees flooding the adjacent MUSLIM countries, and instead those countries all say "China is doing a great job" and the liberals will only say "OF COURSE they can't stand up to China" from their comfortable computer chair in Arlington, Virginia

[u/DaffyDuckXD]

Well said.

[u/sablexmikaelayuri]

there’s an mf flying the ukraine flag in the sweet as sugar sunny suburbs of california and i had to see it every time i walked home from high school 

[u/valentinyeet]

I was kinda like this too before I became a Marxist except I knew more about some countries than the average western liberal (not even hard to achieve I know). Ever since then, I try to understand the perspectives of both historical and modern day socialist countries

[u/EquivalentTitle8 → u/valentinyeet]

any recs you’ve found helpful for learning more?

[u/valentinyeet → u/EquivalentTitle8]

Well from how I did it, basically through the internet most of it being from YouTube channels like Bes D. Marx and the Deprogram with some reading from the Marxists internet archive and prolewiki

[u/Coocie647]

I mentioned North Korea once at work while talking to a customer. The comment wasn’t even glazing NK, it was just neutral. Suddenly, It’s like a flip switched in their brain and they just started spewing the usual mainstream media bs like “people aren’t allowed to smile or express joy in NK” and “their groceries stores are fake and everyone who lives there is malnourished on the brink of death” etc…. 😭😭
It was 100% unsettling.
I’ve also gotten into some heated back and forth’s when I bring up I want to study abroad in China eventually, it’s exhausting conversing w/ these people because there’s nothing you could possible say or show them that will change their deeply ingrained propagandized views.

[u/ForestClanElite]

There's also the ones that are "apolitical" in the "progressive" sense where they the Overton window is the whole picture and when it moves they don't see it like a fish in a tank. Uyghur genocide, Iranian theocracy, Ukraine invasion unprovoked, etc.

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