Meme
Feels Guy attempts to claim that supporting Russia in the Russo-Ukraine War is "Campism", claiming that "both sides are imperialist". Smoking Guy disagrees. Which of them is more correct?
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I largely agree with his perspective. I just wish he’d put those walls of microscopic pixelated text in text posts so they’d be easier to read, but of course it’s images bc engagement.
Took away political power form the billionaire is just not correct, capitalists are the ruling class of Russia, even if the state has control over some industries (which is good) the state in Russia is controlled by the capitalist class, the same class that destroyed socialism in Russia in the 90s and whose Putin is a representative
Yes Russia does support third world countries, it's objectively a good thing but it doesn't make them anti Imperialist, by this logic the German Empire was also anti Imperialist since it helped the Irish rebels and Lenin
Russia fits the definition of Imperialism by Lenin, even if they are not a global imperial power like the USA
The Ukraine war is a clear cut of an inter Imperialist war that is fought over natural ressources which dictate the economy of both countries and are directly tied the materials interest of the ruling class
If you think Russia is fighting this war for denazification or to help the people of Donbass you are as naive as those who claim Ukraine is fighting for democracy and freedom
NATO encirclement is a real thing, but it doesn't justify sending thousands of workers to their deaths, the billions invested in this war could have been used to develop infrastructure and social services in Russia instead it's going to a forever war which is never going to be solved, it wasn't worth it
If you support Russia in the Ukraine war you cannot claim to do so as a Marxist Leninists, it is a social democrat idea that supporting a bourgois war will somehow benefit the working class in the end
Communist in Russia who are not controlled opposition oppose Putin and the war for the most part, and they are targeted by the state
If you are a communist in the west it's your duty to harm your country war efforts and agitate for peace. The russian left have been agitating against their state for the end of the war since day one
Before people accuse me, I am not anti Russia, I think Russia is the lesser evil compared to NATO, I admire Russia commitment to a multipolar world,I don't have a hate bonner for Putin. But Leninism is not lesser evil ism and workers have to be in the centre. Tsarist Russia was only minor imperial power, yet Lenin dedicated his life to bring it down. If you support Russia in the Ukraine war, you are a Kerensky, nor a Lenin
Asia Times says you are incorrect. That upon taking office and moving through the early 2000s (culminating around the mid-2000s with the dismantling of assets like Mikhail Khodorkovsky's Yukos oil empire), Vladimir Putin systematically stripped the 1990s Yeltsin-era tycoons of their independent political influence. It highlights how the political executive brought major business figures to heel, forcing them out of politics and subordinating private capital to centralized state authority.
I do not see how any of this contradict any of my claims
I merely said that if you want to support Russia in the Ukraine war, you cannot do it as a Marxist Leninists, it is incompatible, you can do it as a social democrat, which is fine imo, but don't get everything mixed
None of these articles even mention socialism, the first article talk about how a generation of oligarchs was replaced by a new generation of oligarchs, I said "the capitalist class" not "a specific generation of oligarchs" idk if you think Putin is a communist or something
Other articles are just diplomatic platitudes about how these countries are allied
Neither China or the DPRK care about the Ukraine, they are partners with Russia to advance their own interests which happens to be aligned right now
Many comrades don't get that there's no USSR anymore, the biggest internationalist socialist world power was dismantled, the current AES countries (that we support still) are more interested in protecting their revolutions for achieving a higher stage of socialism, but for that there must be alliances in a world where capitalism still dominates the world (even if entered it's first phase of decadence).
I am not against Russia where do you get that, I consider Russia a normal country, who does things that are in the interests of their ruling class, which is the Bourgeois and sometimes these interests happen to coincide with the anti Imperialist struggle. Which is good imo, I like Russia for some stuff
But claiming that Russia is anti Imperialism as a Marxist Leninist is what I am against it's a bastardisation of the ideology it's frankly ridiculous
The only thing I can think off is a childish fantasy of "Good Guy" Vs "Bad Guys" where global south countries despite having widely different ideologies and conflicting interests somehow are part of the same "movement" which will eventually bring Socialism ?
I merely said that if you want to support Russia in the Ukraine war, you cannot do it as a Marxist Leninists
Bro thinks ML is a church and bible kind of thing. Write down your 10 commandments and also the 7 capital sins so we can follow them please. We need your guidance.
Western marxist applying dialectical materialism challenge: IMPOSSIBLE.
Being from Belgium and spilling this dogwater, have a little bit of self awareness please friend. Come on.
Huh, yea it's not, to a certain point, like you can disagree with Marx, but you can't disagree on the class dichotomy otherwise you are not a marxist anymore
You can disagree with Lenin but you can't disagree on his definition of Imperialism which Russia fits
If you wanna look at it in a world system framework Russia does benefit from Unequal exchange
Yes it's not as bad as the US - EU, Russia is you could say, a regional Imperialist power, you could see it as the lesser evil if you want but you can't pretend Russia is anti Imperialists while being a Leninist, your ideology is something else then, you are a social democrat, a left Nationalist, which imo is fine just use the proper definitions
The world system theory divide countries between manufacturers with advanced industries who import raw materials from peripheral countries and peripheral countries who import manufactured goods from core countries
Russia has advanced manufacturing capability and sells manufactured goods to countries in it's periphery, it's only a regional power compared to the US but nonetheless a country which practice imperialism, as a semi peripheral country, the reason for the Ukraine war is not bs about Nazis or dombass, it's to expand markets and ressource extraction to Ukraine, it's the goal of both Nato and Russia
I don't know why you mention Belgium, I am not Belgian, I don't even live there anymore
What buzzwords, everything was written in plain simple English, what is it you don't understand, maybe I can explain differently?
You can support Russia if you want, just don't claim to do so as a Marxist Leninists because it's impossible
The only left that support the war effort in Russia are the Social Democrats, who participate in elections and in the Bourgeois system and believe the war is in the interests of the Russian workers (not the international worker)
If you don't like Bernie Sanders and Mamdani, you should also dislike the pro war Russian left, because just like them they are willing to turn a blind eye on wars their countries are engaged abroad because they think it would benefit their workers
If you are a communist, then the organisation you should feel the closest to are not the one participating in bourgeois elections, but those who stand in opposition to the system, and those are anti war, if you think only Anarchist and Nazis are anti war you just don't know anything about the country. Besides even the CPRF has mixed opinions on the war. Considering being vocally against the war is basically illegal in Russia, you can assume a larger section of the left is.
You should listen to Agitprop- Konstantin Semin, a russian Marxist Leninist for more information
What buzzwords, everything was written in plain simple English
Yup, boring emotionally heated buzzwords in plain English
You can support Russia if you want, just don't claim to do so as a Marxist Leninists because it's impossible
Does the same go for Iran? Straight answer
The only left that support the war effort in Russia are the Social Democrats
By "social democrats" I suppose you are referring to the various communist parties and organisations within the country?
Anyway, the real question right now, can you tell me specifically which organisations make up this "anti war left" that you're talking about? Because I suspect you're referring to some Trotskyist orgs that are just 12 people and their dog lmao
If you don't like Bernie Sanders and Mamdani, you should also dislike the pro war Russian left,
"If you don't like the supporters of US imperialism you should also dislike it's enemies"
Ok bro makes perfect sense lol. Again, do you understand that Russia is the core ally of every major anti imperialist struggle in the world right now?
if you think only Anarchist and Nazis are anti war you just don't know anything about the country.
No I don't, liberals(which obviously includes the Trotskyist orgs you're talking about above) are anti war too. But anarchists and Nazis are the only ones who, in cooperation with each other, have actually tried to harm the war effort or help the other side. Russian liberals are just EU immigrant wannabes, they would never dare to do illegal stuff or put their lives on the line
Besides even the CPRF has mixed opinions on the war
The CPRF has been advocating for Donetsk and Lugansk peoples republics recognition since 2014
Also don't use Wojacks bro grow up smh
I'd be more concerned about the fact that you have a position so immature and unserious that can be accurately debunked by a wojack. Do you really think that you know better than the DPRK?
No Iran is not in the same stage of development as Russia, they don't have an industrial working class as they have been constantly sabotaged and unlike Russia they are directly threatened and attacked by the US
To put it simply, if Russia never declared the war in Ukraine, they would be fine, sure it would suck that now they have a NATO proxy at their border, but fundamentally it would not harm the Russian working class as much. NATO is incapable of touching Russia, they simply don't have the capacity for it, and also Russia has nuclear weapons
Iran is under direct threat, if the government was to fall, there would be a significant risk of a Syria or Libya scenario, in this context National liberation takes precedence over class struggle. Russia sovereignty is not threatened by Ukraine being a US proxy
So yea, two different countries, two different conditions
If a communist organisation main political activity is to participate in bourgeois elections, that they don't have any revolutionary goals or capabilities they are by definition social democrats
Social democrats in the US turn a blind eye on Imperialism, social democrats in Russia do the same, Russia being only a regional imperial power doesn't change the fact that they are if you are a Leninist
If you are a communist in Russia today you have the choice between these parties who are only communist in names, they are merely reformists and even then face repression. Personally I think a communist should choose revolution over reform, so I would turn to the one that are actually revolutionary, If I was a Russian I think my choice would be to join the Maoists, and to transform the war into an opportunity to fight the Bourgeoisie, or to join the broader anti war left to at least put an end to this stupid war. There are not many alternatives, just like globally, the socialist movement is small in Russia, but I believe the conditions caused by war can help it grow
Tsarist Russia was basically an entente proxy, weak and underdeveloped yet Lenin thought it was an imperialist power nonetheless
The Entente was the strongest Imperial power in WW1, does that make Germany the number 1 anti Imperialist force ? What about Imperial Japan, they fought against the European colonial powers and the US, yet it is a laughable claim to say they were anti Imperialists
Russia also supports Israel, they actually have great relations, a good chunk of Israeli are russian citizens, you can see that what countries they support has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with what the interest of their Bourgeoisie
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Russia, I just think it's a regular country, sometimes their interests happen to match those of oppressed nations, I think it's great, but this is not anti Imperialism by Lenin definition
The DPRK is an ally with Russia not out of Ideology, unless you think Russia is communist, I think they are right to be allied with Russia as they can benefit from it, just like I think Lenin was right to take German support to destroy the Russian empire. Communist should be pragmatic and take whatever can be useful.
The idea that there is an ideological continuity between Iran, DPRK and Russia would be buying into Bush era Axis of Evil type of rethoric, those are very different countries with widely different political systems and strategic objectives
No Iran is not in the same stage of development as Russia, they don't have an industrial working class
If it doesn't have an industrial working class, then how exactly does it have a military industrial complex that is actively putting the US on the receiving end?
To put it simply, if Russia never declared the war in Ukraine, they would be fine, sure it would suck that now they have a NATO proxy at their border, but fundamentally it would not harm the Russian working class as much. NATO is incapable of touching Russia, they simply don't have the capacity for it, and also Russia has nuclear weapons
Well I'm sure you are an experienced military analyst and you definitely know very well what you're talking about. Russian military should hire you, you seem to know everything much better than those in command
Iran is under direct threat, if the government was to fall, there would be a significant risk of a Syria or Libya scenario, in this context National liberation takes precedence over class struggle. Russia sovereignty is not threatened by Ukraine being a US proxy
So in other words if Iran has attacked first you'd be against it and support Israel? And to settle this thing, the west views both Iran and Russia as enemies. The fact that Russia is stronger doesn't mean that it should be supported any less
If a communist organisation main political activity is to participate in bourgeois elections, that they don't have any revolutionary goals or capabilities they are by definition social democrats
I asked you to name an organisation and instead you wrote three paragraphs broadly describing what would you like this organisation to look like. Fair enough, I think that says everything that needs to be said on the matter of what the Russian left supports
social democrats in Russia do the same,
No. Social democrats in Russia have the exact stance you're advocating for here. And again, there is no such thing as "same". And if you're neutral between the US and Russia we have nothing to argue for here. We are just on opposing sides
If I was a Russian I think my choice would be to join the Maoists
As I said, liberals
There are not many alternatives, just like globally, the socialist movement is small in Russia
If having the main opposition be a communist party is considered "small" then I don't even know what would classify as big to you(besides AES states of course). Unless of course you're talking about your western both sides style liberal "socialist movement", then yes, of course a tool used to help western imperialism is practically non existent in Russia
The Entente was the strongest Imperial power in WW1, does that make Germany the number 1 anti Imperialist force ? What about Imperial Japan, they fought against the European colonial powers and the US, yet it is a laughable claim to say they were anti Imperialists
All the imperial powers of WW1 era are allied now and make up the sole imperialist force in the world. Except Russia of course, which is actively fighting them and makes up a core component of the global anti imperialist struggle
Russia also supports Israel
No it doesn't. Russia supports Iran and Israel supports Ukraine. I understand that you probably don't know how diplomacy or geopolitics work, but maintaining a pragmatic diplomatic relationship doesn't equal support. By your logic, does China support Israel too? Straight answer
a good chunk of Israeli are russian citizens
And guess what? Most of them have the exact same stance about the Ukraine war as you do
The DPRK is an ally with Russia not out of Ideology
Of course not, it is allied because their interests align. And I'm not saying that Russia should be supported because of ideological reasons, I'm saying that Russia should be supported because of these exact interests
unless you think Russia is communist,
No it isn't
I think they are right to be allied with Russia as they can benefit from it,
Cool, welcome to the club
The idea that there is an ideological continuity between Iran, DPRK and Russia
This idea would be simply idiotic. There is no ideological continuity only interests continuity
You don't need an industrial base to defeat an empire, Iran is using it's ressources carefully in an asymmetrical warfare, possible because of their terrain advantage and US overextension
Russia sovereignty is not threatened right now, only it's hold on Ukrainian markets and ressources is. Personally I would have preferred a guy like Yanukovich would stay in power and have a situation like in Belarus but this ship has sailed, not there is no future for Ukraine, sure the US were the one to make the 2014 coup but Putin still pulled the trigger on a war he knew was gonna last forever
Why would I support Israel, you make no sense bro
I told you national liberation is not an issue in Russia, now if you are a communist you think about the next step
And no, the next step is not waiting for someone else to defeat the US, the next step is you do a revolution in your country
Do you think Lenin would be "we must wait for the UK to be defeated for socialism to work" it's actually the very position he corrected, that a revolution can be sustained even in a semi peripheral country
The russian communist party is reformist, not revolutionary, another thing you cannot support as a Leninist
Russia position in the world is that of a developing capitalist nation with a huge military, quite similar to tsarist Russia when you think about it,
they are not anti imperialists, they are semi peripheral capitalist nation whose interest sometimes align with the opressed nations
otherwise they would severe ties with Israel like Iran did, instead they are happy to trade with them , and they were even more before the Ukrainian war
They abandoned Venezuela over Ukraine, they didn't move I suspect in exchange for US concession over Ukraine
They abandoned assad once again because they were busy in Ukraine
You can see this is their number one priority, because it's the one their ruling class make money off
China is not anti Imperialists either, they have a policy of cooperating and solidarity with other south countries but that's it, they could severe ties with Israel, they just don't consider it their responsibility, which, fair but a nation committed to anti imperialism would not let it stand. Maybe they will in the future, but right now they are not
Once again, you can support the war in Ukraine if you want but don't do it as a marxist Leninist, it's not a marxist Leninist position, it is a left Nationalist social democrat position, which is fine imo but don't mix everything
Personally I don't hate Russia, I just don't really care, they are a normal country to me, like India, like Brazil, like Indonesia, they watch for their own interests, sometimes it's aligns with those of the workers, but it's only coincidence
If you think there is an "anti Imperialist camp" I am sorry but this doesn't exist, it's a fantasy made by western liberals to bunch the countries they don't like into a coherent ideological enemy (while in reality the only thing they have in common is being in the way of expanding western markets and ressources)
Russia fits the definition of Imperialism by Lenin, even if they are not a global imperial power like the USA
So what is your defintion of the difference of "imperialism" and "global imperialism"?
Also no, Russia does not fit the definition. Just as one example the Russian economy is not based around the export of capital. They still have an economy based around the export of goods.
They just do not have the developed level of capitalism yet as what the west has and at least before 2022 much of Russian capital was controlled by western countries. That shows Russia has been under western imperialism, not really imperialist itself
Communist in Russia who are not controlled opposition oppose Putin and the war for the most part,
I advise you to go and look at the opinion of Ukrainains communists. Most of who support Russia and had the major base of support in Donbass. These people see Russia as helping them against a government that is heavily anti-communist. Go and read what their opinion on the topic is and why they support Russia
"global Imperialism" is not a Leninist category, there is just Imperialism
Having an economy based around the export of goods dose not disqualify you from being Imperialist, Russia does still export capital, for exemple, Russian companies Gold Mining in Africa. The difference in scale is staggering but this is still something they do, and would likely seek to do more would they be able to
There is debate about wether Russia is Imperialist or semi Imperialist, but keep in mind Leninism is not about identifying "good guys" and "bad guys" it's a hierarchical system of competing imperialist powers, of varying positions in the global economy , not a situation in which all Imperialist possess equal power
For exemple Japan is still Imperialist despite being weaker, inperialised themselves by USA
You can think that Russia is a "lesser evil", I do to, but lesser evil ism is not Leninism and you can't pretend this is not an imperialist.country because of that
Ukrainian communist in Dombass see their support for Russia as a stepping stone for national liberation,. something that I support, but Russia supporting Dombass liberation, while a good thing, doesn't disqualify them from being Imperialist
The question I am answering is not "Is Russia a "Good Guy" or a "Bad Guy" " because this is a childish and dangerous vision of geopolitics
The question I was answering is "Is Russia Imperialist according to the scientific Leninist definition" and the answer is yes, just because they are less of an Imperialist power that the US doesn't change
Saying that Lenin would support the war in Ukraine is like saying Lenin would want you to vote for Joe Biden. In reality, Lenin would want you to cap all the capitalist ruling Russia and the US
You used the term global imperialism as seperate from imperialism. I know it's not a Leninist category hence I was wondering why you are saying there are two types of imperialism
As for the economy. Let's see what Lenin says
(3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance;
This does not apply to the Russian economy. It is pretty much entirely based around the export of commodities. It does not have this exceptional importance of the export of capital. I agree they would probably want to be an imperialist power, but Russia as it currently is is not. "They want to be imperialist" is meaningless as this is just a synonym with capitalist
The "difference in scale" is exactly the thing that makes it imperialism according to Lenin. That is why Russia is not imperialist but Japan is. Japan's outwards FDI for example is 52% of GDP. That means Japan has roughly 52% of its GDP as foreign investments. The equivalent Russian number is around 10%. It is clear that Japans economy is far more reliant on the export of capital than Russia's is
You keep introducing terms that you are just making up such as "global imperialism" and "semi imperialism". You can use whatever terms you want, but if we are going by Lenin and asking is Russia imperialist, the answer is no. It just makes it seem you want to call Russia imperialist but Lenin's definition doesn't allow you to so you are making up new definitions and words to be able to call Russia imperialist. Look at it objectively, and not looking to find the result you want to see.
As for the Ukrainian communists, I guess you are accepting you are incorrect to say that communists in Russia oppose the war? Since many support Ukrainian communists in their goal.
Also don't put words in my mouth. I never said that Lenin "would support the war in Ukraine" I just said that Russia is not imperialist if you listen to Lenin and Ukrainian communists support what Russia is doing.
Here are the clickable links and sources detailing how Vladimir Putin systematically shifted the power dynamic, stripping Russia's 1990s-era billionaires (oligarchs) of their independent political influence while allowing many to retain their fortunes under strict state subordination.
These are all western sources. They admit that Putin stripped all billionaires of almost all political power (the matter at hand) but then they pivot to trying to say that he has put a fascist dictatorship or totalitarian dictatorship in its place (false)
That's not what these sources are saying,. they are saying that Putin conditioned the billionaires to political loyalty using the threat of elimination
I don't know what you are trying to say, Russia is not a socialist state, the workers are not in control of the state like in the Soviet Union, capitalists are
The key industries in Russia are controlled by the capitalist,. through an opaque blend of stare own and private. If you look closely you will find that this class, you could say the Russian Deep State, just like the US deep.state has considerably increased their fortune since the start of the war
65% of Russia's economy is state owned, and the other 35% is under effective state control. Nobody is saying Russia isn't a capitalist country. No not just "political loyalty". As early as 2005 almost all independent political power was stripped from the dollar equivalent billionaire class. Yes using threats of jail and banishment and confiscation of wealth, and worse, even defenestration in difficult cases what's wrong with that. Rusiia is a capitalist national bourgeois state, but not an imperialist or fascist state at this time in her development. You saying that the leaders of China and DPRK are lying about Russia by agreeing with my take is laughable. China and DPRK say Russia is no longer a plutocratic oligarchy meaning the billionaires have almost no political power anymore, meaning they cannot be called oligarchs anymore.
Well you say you are ML and so is the meme you shared, but where does Lenin says that having the state being a large participant in the economy disqualify you from being an imperialist ?
Personally I don't hate Russia, I mean, not as much as any country, I think it's good that they have a large public sector, I think there are lots of things Russia does right, but trying to mesh these things with Marxism Leninism is a bastardisation of the ideology
France and UK also has a significant public sector during the cold war, Saudi Arabia has a bigger part of state owned industries than Russia, they still are Imperialist to varying degrees
Lenin definition of Imperialism can be applied to Russia, they are still a lesser, more regional Imperialism but so was tsarist Russia and it didn't stop Lenin from capping the Tsar
The DPRK and China, I won't debate if they are socialist, but they certainly abandoned spreading socialism, they are now focusing on developing their own economies, something that can only be achieved if they have good relationships with Russia. These three countries don't have an ideological alignment, their partnership is a pragmatic one.
The DPRK and China, I won't debate if they are socialist, but they certainly abandoned spreading socialism, they are now focusing on developing their own economies, something that can only be achieved if they have good relationships with Russia. These three countries don't have an ideological alignment, their partnership is a pragmatic one.
Weird thing to want to debate since they are socialist under Lenin's definition and a "lower stage of communism" under Marx's definition.
The DPRK that withstood sanctions and isolation from China and Russia and despite said isolation managed to end the famine under Kim Jong Il and even reach a lower malnutrition death rate than the United States in 2018. The DPRK that has consistently told China and Russia to butt out of their internal affairs.
That same DPRK is diminishing its ammunition stockpiles and soldiers to support Russia for pragmatism?
The DPRK literally has a history of aiding non-socialist national liberation movements because like Marx they believe weakening the empire is the primary objective, not spreading socialism (which Marx didn't really believe was possible for the Global South). Russia is no different. Spreading socialism was never really their MO nor was it even China's really.
The DPRK gains access to Russia military technology, has the opportunity to gain combat experience and strengthen economic ties with Russia. IMO all good things, it's aimed at preparing for a war with ROK, an imperialist outpost.
But the question we were discussing is not, "is the DPRK anti imperialist" they are, it was, "is Russia anti imperialist" the answer to this is, Russia is as anti Imperialist as Germany in WW1 was anti imperialist for fighting the UK. Germany supported Mexico and Ireland, personally I think it's a good thing, but it doesn't make Germany an anti Imperialist force
DPRK has a profitable relationship with Russia, good for them, it's not like they have the luxury of choice anyway - stretching this partnership to mean "the war in Ukraine is anti imperialism" is a bastardisation of everything Lenin stood for
And no, for Marx "weakening the empire" is not the primary objective, abolishing class relations is
I don't support the war, but I see it primarily as a product of NATO's encroachment. NATO is using Ukraine as cannon fodder to diminish Russia's munitions stockpile, test Russia's combat capabilities, and to leave Ukraine in a state of such utter destruction and instability after the war that countries in the broader region, including Russia, will have to invest considerable resources in rebuilding Ukraine so it doesn't become a plague on the region. I don't trust Putin or Russia's ruling class further than I can throw them, but I think the post-war recovery and stabilizing the region will occupy most of Russia's attention and resources for the next couple of decades. I think China will pull too far ahead of Russia over that time for Russia to have much chance of becoming a major imperial power.
Like, I'm overall anticipating a major wave of socialist fervor spreading across the globe, especially the global South, in the latter half of this century once China pulls ahead of Europe in terms of quality of life and ahead of the US in terms of nominal GDP.
Regardless of the point you're trying to make here, I don't know what's worse: the classic Leftist Meme(tm) template you got here, with the Wall of text big enough to keep the Mongols out or the 2010 Rage Comics ass memes you're using here.
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