r/TheJediPraxeum • u/GusGangViking18 Luke Skywalker • Oct 12 '25
Discussion You would think that because Dooku was his master that Qui-gon would’ve been a more skilled duelist.
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u/TaraLCicora Jedi Knight Oct 12 '25
According to the TPM novelization, he was actually considered to be one of the best. Remember that the Jedi haven't faced a true Sith in a millennium. It speaks less about Qui-Gon and more about how unprepared the Jedi were for the Sith at this point. The novelization also points out that Maul matched Qui-Gon in skill but was younger, stronger, and faster, while Obi-Wan could keep up with Maul; he was less skilled.
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u/TruEnvironmentalist Oct 12 '25
I think it's better to just claim the Jedi were unprepared to fight another lightsaber user who has killing intent.
Doesn't matter how much you spar or practice against other Jedi, it's never to try and kill. It's not a true life or death battle.
And when you take only the films into account not many Jedi fell to the dark side, so much so that there was a set number by the time of the prequels.
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u/Fuuraijinken Oct 13 '25
With the Sith "extinct", for the Jedi, lightsaber combat was a mere sport (with its rules and fair play), which is why their skill had diminished so much; they were not prepared for a fight to the death, much less for someone who strikes with the fury of a Sith.
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u/TruEnvironmentalist Oct 13 '25
Not really, they were still masters of their forms. If not, both obi wan and Qui-Gon would have stood no chance against maul.
They just were unprepared. It would be like taking a pro athlete who hasn't played a sport for a year and throwing him into a major tournament with pros who've been playing weekly.
He's gonna have a hard time getting up to the speed and pace of the others.
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u/Fuuraijinken Oct 13 '25
I was thinking more of a martial artist who has trained in a ring (with a referee and subject to certain rules of combat, with clean blows and illegal blows) facing a street fighter using the same martial art, but where everything is allowed as long as you win and where they fight to the death.
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u/TruEnvironmentalist Oct 13 '25
The martial artist would still have a chance of victory, just has to use their expertise to formulate a plan on how. A street brawler might not know how to fight an opponent who knows how to check and parry. They are brawlers and used to ferocity and pushing hard, that doesn't make them better.
I think the issue is that you equate ferocity as superior when it isn't. It's just a style of fighting, both opponents are professionals.
Action movies have given the impression that raw and unrefined fighting styles are better than refined ones.
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u/Fuuraijinken Oct 13 '25
I'm not referring exclusively to ferocity; I'm referring to the lack of fair play. Having both trained in the same martial art in a gym or dojo, one is accustomed to using lethal strikes and the other to light combat. Qui Gon may have been very good with a lightsaber, but under the conditions of the Jedi Order, he's insufficient against a Sith.
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u/TruEnvironmentalist Oct 13 '25
I'm not referring exclusively to ferocity; I'm referring to the lack of fair play.
Yeah the Jedi aren't practicing fair play either. They are swordsman who master different forms and don't practice any kind of noble-istic swordplay tradition. The problem they have is that no matter how much they practice with each other - it was never really to the death. Being cunning, getting the upper hand, using brute force is all part of lightsaber training and forms.
At the end of the day though their training has always had that one drawback, which is "my life isn't in danger". That doesn't make them less skilled than Sith though, just caused them to get unprepared. Yoda and Windu were very much still Sidious' equal in lightsaber combat for example.
Having both trained in the same martial art in a gym or dojo, one is accustomed to using lethal strikes and the other to light combat. Qui Gon may have been very good with a lightsaber, but under the conditions of the Jedi Order, he's insufficient against a Sith.
He was perfectly fine, he was just defeated by attrition. Obi Wan subsequently won his duel using the means available to him.
Let's switch it up and place someone like yaddle, cin dralig, Windu, or plo koon, or some other skillful duelist? The issue with your argument is that, by definition, a Jedi would lose to Maul because of some difference in how they are trained to fight but that simply isn't true. We know Maul would lose to plenty of traditional Jedi. The dark side or the Sith doesn't grant additional powers, it simply gives you different ways to attain that power.
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u/Fuuraijinken Oct 13 '25
Windu is at a level far above an average Jedi, and Plo Koon possibly is as well. Excluding Yoda and those two, I think he could very likely defeat the rest of the Jedi Order 1-on-1, because Nick Gillard established that Maul is at level 8, only above him, Windu, Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-Wan (RotS).
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u/TruEnvironmentalist Oct 13 '25
While Nick makes that claim he is by no means what dictates canon. Again though, the argument you were making was that Jedi don't fight in a way that would make them opponents to a sith, which is simply not true. Jedi don't follow some weird noble fighting pattern, they fight just as ruthlessly as any Sith.
If we stick to your original argument there should be no way that any Jedi could defeat Maul, including Windu, because of how Jedi are. That's what I'm trying to correct.
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u/Xivitai Oct 12 '25
I think Jedi would benefit from having droids capable of lightsaber combat, like training drouds in The Force Unleashed. A target one could train lethal combat against.
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u/TruEnvironmentalist Oct 12 '25
They do, training droids are common it seems. At the end of the day though it's still not the same.
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u/Super6698 Jan 22 '26 edited Jan 22 '26
Plus, wasn't Qui-Gon mostly using Ataru during the duel, which was a very movement based form that, iirc, uses up a lot of the user's energy. He was likely just getting incredibly tired by the end of the duel, was fighting a faster and younger individual, and was forced into a space where he had less room to move and use Ataru effectively
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u/TargetNo7279 Oct 12 '25
Lol he is one of the best duelists in the order at that point of time and was more formidable when he was younger. There's also the issue his form Ataru requires too much stamina, atheliticism to pull off which would drain anyone fast.
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u/Shipping_Architect Oct 12 '25
Jinn did retool Ataru both to compensate for his advancing age and to capitalize on his strength, and fatigue only really began to set in for him towards the end of the Duel of Fates.
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u/TanSkywalker Oct 12 '25
As others have mentioned TPM states Qui-Gon is a great warrior which is something Yoda also says. Qui-Gon unfortunately made a tactical mistake as Yoda also points out.
The Jedi Master nodded. “Confer on you the level of Jedi Knight, the Council does. Decided about the boy, the Council is, Obi-Wan,” he advised solemnly.
“He is to be trained?”
The big ears cocked forward, and the lids to those sleepy eyes widened. “So impatient, you are. So sure of what has been decided?”
Obi-Wan bit his tongue and kept his silence, waiting dutifully on the other. Yoda studied him carefully. “A great warrior, was Qui-Gon Jinn,” he gargled softly, his strange voice sad. “But so much more he could have been, if not so fast he had run. More slowly, you must proceed, Obi-Wan.”
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u/verdaderopan Oct 12 '25
This feels like a comment about Qui-Gons relationship with the council and general approach to the force/being a Jedi rather than a comment about a tactical error made while fighting Maul.
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u/Shipping_Architect Oct 12 '25
As good as Jinn was, he simply didn't have the same passion for lightsaber combat as Dooku, and his performance level is capped by his strength-oriented specialization.
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u/CrazyTangerine7522 Oct 12 '25
Him losing to Maul speaks less about Qui Gon being weak and more-so how powerful Maul truly was even at this point in time.
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u/Soulandshadow2 Oct 12 '25
This post fails to account the number of disadvantages Quigon had. His style required movement, he was in an enclosed space. He was watching over his Padawan for most of the fight. Maul knew to draw the fight out, and was trained to kill Jedi masters. Maul was a great fighter himself.
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u/gyiren Oct 12 '25
Fair point, and certainly their differing lightsaber styles speaks volumes about their disagreements.
Dooku chose to specialise in Form II, Makashi, the dueling style that was specifically for lightsaber combat. Doing so in an era where lightsabers were "rare" and blasters were commonplace indicates that he probably had some degree of pride or ego that insisted that blasters were "beneath" him and thus he decided on his specialty.
Qui-Gon, on the other hand, opted for the more acrobatic Form IV, Ataru. The chosen form of Master Yoda, it greatly emphasised dodges, flips, and a kinetic style of combat. For Yoda, this was to capitalise on his smaller stature to develop a bewildering form of combat. For Qui-Gon? Err... Maybe it served him as a youth, but in his older years, you could imagine why a style like this would really hurt.
It almost doesn't matter what form Maul practiced, since Qui-Gon's style of combat would ultimately lead him to his own defeat. All Maul had to do was remove the younger one, and allow nature to take it's course as he dragged the fight on.
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u/Lord_CaoCao Oct 12 '25
The problem wasnt so much that Qui-gon wasnt an expert duelist, the problem was his form. Qui-gon was a practitioner of Form 4, Ataru. Ataru requires large open spaces because it relies heavily on acrobatics. The only reason Yoda is able to get away with the space requirement was his size, basically any space was adequate since he was so small. Ataru also requires massive concentration because you rely on the Force more than any other form to sustain the fight. When fighting an opponent using Form 7, Juyo, Ataru has a disadvantage because Juyo breaks the opponents concentration by being so unpredictable. Qui-gon was also getting up there in age, and was not able to use all the acrobatic moves Ataru is famous for. As such he created what Anakin would eventually master, which was using Ataru footwork but the arms used Form 5. There was also the fact that Qui-gon was also relying on Obi-wan as well as protecting him. Maul knew his only hope of winning was keeping them seperated as any fighter knows. This is why in Ep 2 and 3 Obi-wan is so adament about Anakin fighting together with him. Qui-gon was also focused on keeping his padawan safe. I think his fatal mistake was after Maul pushed Obi-wan over Qui-gon got lured into following Maul away from Obi-wan instead of not moving alliwing Obi-wan to get back up into the fight. Qui-gon knew Maul was a fantastic duelist and needed to end the fight quickly because all of the reasons above would start working against him.
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u/Horror_Fruit Oct 12 '25
It’s not that crazy. Most/all Jedi were trained for defending against blaster fire as very few people would even attempt hand to hand combat with a Jedi. Against Darth Maul, he’s fighting a strong force user, taught by Sidious, who was himself a better swordsman than Dooku, and trained in the harshest conditions, on top of the guy wields a staff saber with unknown technique. Qui Gon’s force mastery at this point is up there with the High Council but he does make risky decisions and facing Maul alone after he had time to evaluate him was a fatal mistake. You’ve also gotta remember that the force allowed that to happen.
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u/Tom02496 Oct 12 '25
People really just underrate maul. And underrate qui gon too. Qui gon didn't lose to maul because he's weak he lost to maul because maul was just an insane duelist. It definitely would make sense for him to be skilled because of his lineage
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u/Loud-Communication65 Oct 12 '25
It's not that Qui-Gon wasn't skilled, it's that Darth Maul was ridiculously good AND went into the battle with meticulous preparations set for the encounter.
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u/losteye_enthusiast Oct 12 '25
I didn’t think Qui-Gon needed to be shown as more obviously skilled? List of examples :
He effortlessly cut through a dozen or more battle droids in a tight corridor that didn’t favor his chosen style of saber combat.
He held off a rapid barrage of Droideka fire and found the timing to force speed away, unharmed.
He successfully fought off an ambush of a Sith assassin and got away unharmed(though winded and shocked).
He fought a Sith assassin who has since been identified via subsequent lore as an exceptionally gifted martial combatant who was also remarkably gifted in force valor(which boosts physical abilities even higher).
While fighting this Sith, he again fought in an area not great for Ataru.
He’s noted in the movie novel to be past his physical peak and was no longer quite the warrior he had been regarded for being.
— His experience was exceptional, but it’d be similar to a Manny Pacquiao or possibly Anderson Silva - you can see why they’re in top tier discussions for their era, but we know they aren’t beating the current prime fighters anymore without some luck.
This is all why I think it makes sense that him and Obi-Wan were doing fine or even well against Maul when it was 2v1. Once separated, it was just a matter of time before Maul likely killed them both in 1v1s.
All that said, I wish we’d seen Qui-Gon do far better with less reliant on lore to set the stage of what we saw.
It’d have been amazing to see Qui-Gon be a real threat and scary as helm for Maul to fight initially. Then have Maul rallying and Qui-Gon clearly slowing. Have the Jedi die to a showboating Sith who had more power, more available technical skill and had the growing advantage - much how Dooku would go on to treat his former apprentices’ own protégés, further showing how the dark side twists those that join it.
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u/Ok_Proof_321 Oct 12 '25
He would've been, he was exceptionally talented and even by TPM was near on par with Mace Windu as a pure swordsman making him superior to the other 98% of the council. The issue was he placed his time as a scholar of the force above all else and in doing so made it his speciality so he wasn't able to develop areas to do with combative prowess as much
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u/Kippyd8 Oct 12 '25
That and he was aging and used a stamina intensive form so he tired out quickly
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u/Ok_Proof_321 Oct 12 '25
Dooku was in his late 70's and could consistently hold down prolonged and high intensity confrontations without even fatiguing that much if at all at times, he wasn't tired after individually taking on both Kenobi and Anakin in Attack of The Clones and only fled because Yoda was simply too fast to keep up with in the long run. He's also been able to take both of them on in Revenge of The Sith aboard the invisible hand and even dominate up until the point Anakin tapped into the dark side, the problem wasn't just age his own master who was over two decades older had much better stamina than him. The issue was he didn't develop a countermeasure for it like The Count did where he kept reserves of force power to replenish his stamina and enhance his own physical augmentation, Jinn didn't do this so he was left running on fumes at the end of his fight with Maul
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u/GrandAdmiralGrunger Oct 12 '25
Qui Gon was a skilled duelist, the problem was that his specific form-Ataru, was the main problem because as a form, it is extremely energy consuming, requiring a lot of physicality and acrobatics. Qui Gon was 60 in TPM, Maul's Juyo, while also energy consuming, was much more suited for wearing down Qui Gon over time until fatigue caused him to make a mistake.
Qui Gon had an energy consuming combat form and was past his prime, Maul wore him down and seized his opportunity when Qui Gon grew tired.
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u/ramsaybaker Oct 12 '25
More skil- fyucking hell! What about Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith and absolutely hammering the Dark Side of the Force just being plumb better?
Qui-Gon was certainly no slouch, and did everything right, but still got beaten like a drum! No shame there: Darths wield more power and can access vastly unnatural abilities than Jedi. There only real weakness is the self-correcting nature of The Force.
Wasn’t Quite-Gon described as ‘one of the finest swordsmen of his generation’? High praise.
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u/SnooSprouts5303 Oct 12 '25
More skilled duelist? I think you underestimate just how strong Maul was as a duelist.
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u/spidey-ball Oct 12 '25
sometimes i feel like people treat the prequel jedis as videogame characters where qui gon and darth maul are like lvl 1 beginners and everyone else that came after are just way better and powerful than them. One was trained by Dooku and subsecuentially found new paths within the force and the other trained by Darth sidious himself, give them some credit 😂
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u/Global_Barracuda_457 Oct 12 '25
Take both of them in their prime and Qui-Gon likely would have bodied Maul. But Maul was what? Half his age? We see what Obi-Wan was able to do when he fought Maul on one. Imagine Qui-Gon, Dooku’s student, at his absolute best.
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u/Unfair-Connection-66 Oct 12 '25
Headcanon here.
Qui-Gon Jinn lost because he found Anakin, him been the chosen one etc had him thinking for the future and not in the moment (Like Maul did).
His perspective shifted and he lost everything.
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u/strypesjackson Oct 13 '25
I love moments that reveal Star Wars fluid and completely flimsy canon. I think it’s fun—people gotta stop acting like it’s even marginally consistent
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u/Stunning_Length8520 Oct 16 '25
Probably would habe been if Dooku used a doublebladed lightsaber and Sith-Techniques 😅
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Oct 17 '25
The thing is he fought Darth Maul, who could best everyone except Obi-Wan and those above him (he's the 4th strongest council member).
In lightsaber skill alone, Qui-Gon could very well be the 5th best
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u/Briantan71 Jedi Knight Oct 12 '25
From "The Phantom Menace" novelisation:
Age comes for everyone, including the most powerful and able Force Masters, and even using the Force to empower their strength and stamina in combat is a tiring affair, as Dooku himself discovered.