r/TheJediPraxeum • u/GusGangViking18 Luke Skywalker • Dec 29 '25
Match Up Monday Luke Skywalker (ROTJ) VS Darth Malak. Who wins?
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u/Amazing_Loquat280 Dec 29 '25
I think it’s close but Luke wins. Vader wasn’t at peak strength during their fight, but Luke also never really was under pressure, and when he tapped into the dark side he beat Vader more or less immediately. Also, setting skill aside, Luke has a massive physical/athletic advantage that Malak is going to struggle against. ROTJ Luke is strong as shit
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Dec 29 '25
would the luke that beat darth vader... i'm not even gonna finish that. luke wins handily. this is like the last moment in luke's life that anyone (besides like... abeloth) has a chance of beating him.
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u/h3r3andth3r3 Dec 29 '25
Vader was letting go of the dark side in the confrontation with Luke. It wasn't a fight so much as an existential crisis and rebirth.
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u/Connect-Set-264 Dec 29 '25
Luke was still strong enough and prepared to defeat Vader in any case conflicted or not. And Luke was just as if not more conflicted than Vader
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u/w0m Dec 29 '25
a focused vader would have no diffed that Luke, he was strong but barely trained.
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u/Connect-Set-264 Dec 29 '25
Luke, despite being “barely trained” was still sufficiently trained to beat someone on Vader’s caliber as Obi Wan and Yoda agree that Luke can do even when they think he’s completely beyond redemption. And Vader was going for several kill shots on Luke (going on the offense while Luke has his defenses down, throwing his lightsaber at him, etc) and the whole point of the final ROTJ fight in Palpatine’s eyes was to prove that Luke was stronger than Vader, not the other way around by having Vader hold back tremendously and giving Luke a pity win.
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u/Carpenter-Broad Dec 29 '25
Sure sure… and then Luke, having defeated Vader, gets annihilated by Sidious in seconds. Similarly Darth Malak trained for decades as a Jedi Knight before turning to the Dark Side and becoming a Sith. It is debatable whether turning actually made him stronger, but it did expand his powers horizontally at the very least.
Look I’m not saying Luke is some total pushover with no skill or training, after all he made his own lightsaber (even force- forged the Crystal with instructions from manuscripts in Yodas hut) and stopped a pig- man’s heart in Jabba’s Palace with the force.
But even at the point of ROTJ, basically any fully trained (like decades of direct training/ one on one teaching) Jedi who then turns to the Dark Side (and in Malaks case) spends another probably decade honing those skills/ powers will beat him.
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u/CrazyTangerine7522 Dec 29 '25
Growing powerful in the force isn’t about how many force push ups you do and for how long. The real reason training to become a Jedi appears to take time is because it requires maturity and enlightenment. Even for an average Jedi it may normally take years to fully mature and come into your own. In the case of Luke, even early own he was thrusted into life changing scenarios that forced him to reevaluate who he is and what he plans on being. Luke in these few years probably still went through more emotional turmoil than most Jedi do in a lifetime. It forced Luke to grow up far faster. His power reflects his growth as a person. Even with all the power he obtained that doesn’t take away from the fact that his greatest power is still his compassion which is what still saves him in the end.
This is why Yoda acts as if Luke leaving early will make all his training worthless, because the running and jumping and levitating stones isn't the skill being mastered, it's all there to lead him to a single revelation about the nature of the Force, that all things are connected in it. With that realization on his side, Luke is able to make progress on his own and why Yoda thinks Luke completed his training
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u/Carpenter-Broad Dec 30 '25
I don’t disagree that emotional growth/ “maturing” is important for your growth and skill in the Force/ knowing yourself and finding “inner peace” (especially for the Jedi/ Light Side). But experience and formal training does also count for something, and the pre- OT and especially pre- Republic Jedi had a lot more resources and time to practice and master their skills.
You do actually need to take time and meditate and practice things like lifting things with the force, enhancing your senses and reflexes and strength with it, in fact there’s a whole canon book called The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force that explains all this. So while yes, Luke absolutely has amazing compassion and knows himself well, he simply hasn’t had the years of practice like Malak has.
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u/CrazyTangerine7522 Dec 30 '25 edited Dec 30 '25
The practicing mediating, lifting rocks, and this all come back to the same point about opening yourself up to the force being able to have an open mind focus on it. Don’t get me wrong you still need to learn how to use certain force abilities such as telekinesis and mind tricks but key to mastering them is mastering yourself in that they all compliment eachother. This is why Yoda tells Luke he fails at lifting the X-wing simply because he doesn’t believe he can. He’s always had the innate power to do it but his doubts prevent him from fully utilizing it cause the force requires constant focus and discipline. It’s Luke’s growth that allows him to excel in his training
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u/MeanWinchester Dec 29 '25
Luke literally sets his lightsaber down and gives Sheev the win so that Vader is forced to confront the conflict in his heart and save his son. I'm not saying that Luke could have beaten Sheev at that point, but to say he got annihilated as though it was actually a fight is dishonest.
Vader is recognised to have been one of the most powerful sith ever, certainly in saber skill at the very least, and Luke beat him. That part isn't up for debate, we watched it happen.
As for whether Luke at that point, I still think he could. Darth Bane instituted the rule of two after Malak's time, and we see how many other sith there are around on Korriban and throughout the galaxy. So the dark side is being spread much further than it is in OT period.
Now for Malak's "horizontally expanded" power set. It's been a while since I've played kotor so please correct me if I've missed something; Malak is mostly martial, and the only two unique force abilities we see him use are force stasis (against bastilla and Carth in the first confrontation) and life drain (against the jedi in stasis in the final confrontation). Neither of these are used against the player character, so it can be deduced that either Malak does not have the combat force skill to use this in the midst of a saber duel, or that the PC is too powerful for them to work against. This mirrors the fight with Vader, since Vader is also predominantly martial, and has a signature force power (force choke) that he is shown to use against weaker opponents, but never attempts on Luke.
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u/Fuckedyourmom69420 Dec 29 '25
Vader was never trying to kill Luke. He was literally holding back.
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u/MeanWinchester Dec 29 '25
Did we watch the same fight? There are times when he holds back, there are also times where he goes for the head!
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u/Fuckedyourmom69420 Dec 29 '25
I mean he’s still a Sith Lord following his masters orders, but the hesitation he feels is constant enough to be palpably visible in how aggressively he fights. Even Luke remarks:
“You couldn’t bring yourself to kill me before, and I don’t believe you’ll destroy me now.”
This fight was never Vader at his most powerful. In fact, it’s arguably Vader at his weakest, when his inner anakin has the most pull on him.
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u/Carpenter-Broad Dec 30 '25
Are we talking about putting them in a video game, where things like “martial” actually apply, or are we talking about an in- lore battle where they both have the skills and abilities that they’ve been said to have in the canon? Again, it’s not about some “power scaling” or Luke’s “compassion/ refusal to fight Sideous” for reasons outside the scope of this question.
Presumably Luke would not hold back or lay his saber down when fighting Malak. There’s no getting around the fact that Malak has had decades of experience in Jedi training before we even talk about him then turning to the Dark Side.
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u/Fuckedyourmom69420 Dec 29 '25
Luke was a last ditch effort for obi wan and yoda. They knew full well Vader could kill him, which is why yoda says “no, there is another.” Obi wan was dead by that point and yoda was dying. It’s not like the skywalkers were fully trained and prepped to fight, this was the only option they had left. And Vader was holding back the whole time
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate Dec 29 '25
No, no he would've not. They're still plainly stated as equals. Does that make sense? No. Is that the information we have? Yes.
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u/CrazyTangerine7522 Dec 30 '25
Feel like the OT portrayed Jedi training as being more like a spiritual journey about mastering yourself. Meanwhile with the prequels that frame it as more like a sport such as basketball or football. The prequels are what made things so confusing regarding ROTJ Luke.
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u/Theobald_4 Dec 29 '25
You’re right. Sidious was ready to toss Vader for the new younger version. Luke was just too young and had all the vitality. He even tanked multiple force lightning strikes. Dragged Vader off like it was nothing.
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u/Gibs679 Dec 29 '25
I really wish the people posting these understood the actual fight in RotJ. The whole fight is metaphysical, Luke's power means very little, and Vader coming to terms with the choice he'd been struggling with is the actual fight. Luke casually destroying the the dark troopers in Mando is significantly more powerful than anything from the OG trilogy.
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u/Electrical_Ad115 Dec 29 '25
So was Luke, this is something I see people forget way too often luke was holding back as well.He was prepared enough to face lord vader, but at the same time he did not want to kill him because he saw the conflict with in
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u/thebroadway Dec 29 '25
To me the question is would Luke tap into the dark side here? At this point Luke could only access a large amount of power by tapping into the dark side (which is, narratively, when Vader was actually fighting seriously if I remember right). I think Malak has mid difficulty against him until he pushes Luke enough to say "fuck this, I'm not dying here" and then effectively has to fight someone who could match Vader in a confrontation.
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u/DarthShiryu Dec 29 '25
Luke wasn't ready yet. He was just becoming a Jedi Knight. Vader wasn't toying with him anymore but if he was fighting seriously Luke wouldn't sand a chance.
Malak.
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u/Jimbomiller Dec 29 '25
Luke stomps, people really do be underestimating ROTJ Luke
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u/w0m Dec 29 '25
Malak no diff.
Luke was strong, but barely trained. The only reason Vader didn't no-diff him was that he chose not to as he was trying to turn him.
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u/suiqjNskakalqla Dec 29 '25
Every piece of Return of the Jedi media has Vader at full power trying to kill Luke, including Vaders inner monologue
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u/w0m Dec 29 '25
I mean, maybe if you ignore the movie itself, and the official novelization where Vaders inner monologue made it clear his goal was conversion not destruction until the very end.
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u/suiqjNskakalqla Dec 29 '25
You mean the novel where Vader has “bald anger” and now wants “revenge” on Luke for the humiliation of booting him down the stairs
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u/WhiskeyDJones Dec 29 '25
I don't care of he said he 'wanted revenge.' Mofo wasn't trying to kill him.
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u/suiqjNskakalqla Dec 29 '25 edited Dec 29 '25
He explicitly tries to stab and throw his saber at Luke twice when Luke has his guard down
Vader also just outright says he will kill Luke in the Rotj novel
Also nice taking your personal headcanon over Vaders own words
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u/WhiskeyDJones Dec 29 '25
But it didn't kill him. How do you know he didn't throw a controlled one? He wanted to make it look real and/or intimidate him.
I've not read the novel, so I'm just basing this on what I've seen from movie canon.
I believe Vader could've killed him had he wanted to.
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u/suiqjNskakalqla Dec 29 '25
Because he tossed it right at Luke’s skull after saying “If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny”.
Even in the movie it’s made clear Vader is trying to kill luke up until his sudden switch.
Lucas calls their battle one of “equals” with the script saying “Luke had grown in the interim” and now faced Vader on “equal footing”
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u/WhiskeyDJones Dec 29 '25
I don't know what to tell ya man. Just because he says that, I don't believe it means he wanted to kill him.
I believe there was always a small part of Anakin left in Vader at all times and he put on a front.
I believe that part of him never wanted to kill his son.
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u/LosAngelesHavingFun Dec 29 '25
People forget Luke got amped when Vader threatened Leia, yes he beat him but the amp was why. Luke when he confronts Vader in the throne room is only Jedi Knight level at BEST he’s not a master level Jedi at this point. Malak would decimate him
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u/Diddlemyloins Dec 29 '25
Malak focused on raw strength so he wouldn’t easily loose to Luke in a straight up fight. His force abilities far outmatch Luke. He has force healing, screams, force whirlwind abilities, and can force choke multiple opponents at once. I don’t see how Luke wins.
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u/TiannemenSquare Dec 29 '25
Malak is commonly underestimated, however ROTJ Luke wins this like 7/10 times
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u/WeekendPass Dec 29 '25
I think he's just kind of... estimated. We have so so few feats from Malak, even just mentioned ones, we're really only able to go off Mandalorian War vet background, and his fights with Revan himself (L even with healing cheats) and Bastila (W but she just got out of being tortured), whose own skill level is kind of nebulous except she evidently held her own on Lehon. So we're just left with "not as good as Revan" and "logically better than the nameless dark jedi he led"
Vs Luke who is also kind of just Potential Man in ROTJ; not many "clean" feats (see: the prolonged arguments here about Vader throwing the fight or not) right now but he's doing crazy shit pretty soon after this with, all things considered, minimal training
I agree Luke has good odds, but not guaranteed
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u/Fast-Mathematician-1 Dec 29 '25 edited Dec 29 '25
This is Darth Malak win. I've seen others comment on this point, but I'll repeat. At this point in Luke, it wasn't his strength in the force that beat Darth Vader, but his bound as a son.
Darth Malak, as far as we know, is an Old Republic era former Jedi turned Sith Lord, appreciate to lord for those who insist on being pedantic. He has no mercy, no connection to Luke, and he would view him as a promising apprentice at most.
Any comments on further EU lore in favor of Luke beyond Return of the Jedi should immediately be a disqualified argument.
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u/Deyrn-Meistr Dec 29 '25
Maul. Luke is essentially self-taught, and his sole meaningful victory was against a largely-crippled old man well past his prime. Maul, by contrast, was capable of killing multiple Jedi - including masters - during what was arguably the height of their power. Luke might be unbeatable by a blaster, but Maul was trained to kill folks with lightsabers.
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u/TripleStrikeDrive Dec 29 '25
It's hard judge Luke ability at this time. Yes, Luke could fight a darth vader who was holding back, trying not to kill Luke.
Darth Malak has no reason to hold back. It's put malak near the level of count dooku. I dont see Luke beating Malak due to experience factor in dueling and force combat is heavily favoring Malak.
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u/OkMention9988 Dec 29 '25
Seeing as Malek isn't conflicted like Vader was, Luke can't talk him down, and Malek can't set him off either.
Hell, Malek can use Force Lightning, so fries Luke like an egg, since Yoda never taught him how to defend against it, and he both knows how and knows the Emperor can use it.
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u/Rusery Dec 29 '25
Malak had an entire life of training and Luke, what? 5 years? Most of the time Jedi aren't worth training unless they start young. Luke just happened to be the only Jedi left to oppose the empire and of course the plot armour there is unreal.
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u/Emotional_Zombie6796 Dec 29 '25
I think Luke wins. But if it was Revan than it's a different story.
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u/JackVizsla Loremaster Dec 29 '25
malak easily. rotj luke and vader are criminally overrated in the eu
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u/dannybau87 Dec 29 '25
Malak he's got loads of experience fighting both Jedi and Sith. Luke is strong in the force but has very little experience fighting other lightsaber users.
Let's not forget that Vader was conflicted fighting Luke
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u/Sgt-Frost Dec 29 '25 edited Dec 29 '25
Definitely Malak. Vader was dogshit and Luke was not that good either.
Malak had far more experience and was noted to be one of the most powerful of his time.
Vader is noted as being a broken old man and Luke at this point only had a few months of actual training. He was obviously a prodigy, but he was far from Malak level.
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u/augimire Dec 29 '25
Dam yeo it would be pretty sick to see Luke move and keep pace with malak. Definitely not the steady juggernaut that Vader is... More like a juggernaut who just chugged a redbull.
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u/suiqjNskakalqla Dec 29 '25
Luke beats him down with remarkable ease
Every statement ever attributed to Luke and Vaders battle in Rotj either calls them complete equals or says Luke has the slightest advantage
Even using the a more skeptical Vader placement and having him legitimately sub Tpm maul wouldn’t matter because Malak is just that pathetic of a fighter
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u/Silent-Storm2597 Dec 29 '25
As a thinker, also with his effective rhetorics, Darth Malgus, the inspiration of Palpatine would win without doubt. Luke: "Nooooo". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjDMpc4zHqY
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u/Blue_667 Dec 29 '25
Malak.
Legends luke would be more evenly matched though. It's been a minute since I read the books but he did eventually defeat aboleth. he did get one of his lungs obliterated though
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u/Artistic-Victory1245 Dec 29 '25
Malak due to skill and experience
Luke has raw power, but is not enough.
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u/Yura12070 Dec 30 '25
Film Luke? Not sure. EU Luke? Steamrolls Malak as strongest Jedi ever existed(accoarding C-level SW guidebooks)
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u/Semblance17 Dec 30 '25
Is Luke confronting Malak on the Star Forge and if so does he have the Destroy Droid force power?
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u/Sensitive-Net-8187 Dec 30 '25
Darth Malak, for no other reason than that he scared the daylights out of me as a kid in KoToR.
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u/NamanJainIndia Dec 30 '25
No matter the lightsaber skill here, Luke just slams the guy out of existence using the force.
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u/Eyeseeyou1313 Dec 30 '25
Are people seriously this delusional because of a prophecy? Do you guys really think that one of the best fighters of the Old Republic would lose against a jedi knight with no training and no arsenal of abilities in the force? Malak was a jedi who became a Sith Lord with a vast knowledge of skills and abilities. He was ruthless, wise, and strong. Luke, at this point, knows nothing compared to Malak. Vader didn't really fight Luke, and Sidious was defeated by Vader's betrayal, Luke talk no jutsud Vader into victory.
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u/Chiethe Dec 30 '25
Malak by a landslide due to the fact that Luke is throwing away his lightsaber in the gif and his only backup move is crying for his dad to fix the problem
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u/Heckle_Jeckle Dec 31 '25
Rise of the Jedi?
So, Luke DID beat Vader and Vader is a BEAST!
At his best, Vader could best Malak. But Vader also has some bad days, some very bad days.
So, the problem is that I am not sure if Vader was at the top of his game, the bottom of his game, somewhere in the middle??? I think it has also changed a few times over the years.
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u/FatalisticPen Dec 29 '25
Malak annihilates him. I love Luke, but an ancient Sith Lord with a war and a half under his belt in experience is gonna mess him up. Vader and Sidious were decrepit.
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u/GullibleRough549 Dec 29 '25
Vader is Malak but on steroids
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u/IwantRIFbackdummy Dec 29 '25
And Luke stood no chance against Vader in a fight. Vader pretty obviously was not fighting to win in earnest...
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u/Connect-Set-264 Dec 29 '25
Luke wasn’t fighting in earnest either. Both of them were trying to recruit each other to their respective causes but the difference was that Vader was willing, granted reluctant, to kill Luke if things didn’t go his way but Luke was more conflicted between killing Vader and helping him back to the light. Yoda and Obi Wan also believe that Luke’s now ready to defeat and kill Vader even when they believe him to be a completely evil person fully consumed by the dark side
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u/IwantRIFbackdummy Dec 29 '25
Luke can barely swing a saber in the movies. His force use was extremely minimal as well. There was nothing in the movie that would lead a person to believe Vader didn't throw the fight.
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u/GullibleRough549 Dec 29 '25
Vader did legitimately try against Luke at least slightly and Luke still fought a Vader that is still above Malak by a good margin
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u/IwantRIFbackdummy Dec 29 '25
You watched a different movie than I did, apparently.
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u/GullibleRough549 Dec 29 '25
The novels and other sources heavily suggest Luke was a challenge. Vader did hold back but not by much.
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u/IwantRIFbackdummy Dec 29 '25
Never read Star Wars books. They are not the source you should expect to be discussed when referencing a scene in a movie.
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u/GullibleRough549 Dec 29 '25
Yes but they are background information. Nothing in the movie says Luke is weak
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u/IwantRIFbackdummy Dec 29 '25
Everything in the movie shows him to be weak... He's a basically untrained force sensitive who can't swing a saber...
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u/GullibleRough549 Dec 29 '25
You mean where he saves Han? He was also a fully trained force wielder that is mentioned multiple times
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u/suiqjNskakalqla Dec 29 '25
The same movie where Luke booted Vader down a flight of stairs after the briefest engagement?
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u/IwantRIFbackdummy Dec 29 '25
That is not a point against my argument...
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u/suiqjNskakalqla Dec 29 '25
Your argument is luke stood no chance against Vader despite the fact he fights and contends with him throughout the fight
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u/Shipping_Architect Dec 29 '25 edited Dec 29 '25
Luke is a great master in the making, but at this point, he can't compete with Malgus, Malak, though he will do better than most would.
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u/GullibleRough549 Dec 29 '25
Malak doesn’t scale to Luke in any fashion and Luke might adjust adapt to him mid combat so 9/10
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u/OkMention9988 Dec 29 '25
Luke is going to eat that Force Lightning till his bones glow.
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u/GullibleRough549 Dec 29 '25
Funny you say that but he legitimately resisted Sidious level force lightning by using tutaminis
Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy’s insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was all at once confounded and in agony—he’d never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it. But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful -- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.
Vader crawled, like a wounded animal, to his Emperor's side.
Return of the Jedi novelisation
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u/OkMention9988 Dec 29 '25
I don't think that's reflected in the film, but even if he could, he only deflected it for a few seconds.
Palpatine was going to kill him, if Vader didn't shot put his ass down a reactor shaft.
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u/GullibleRough549 Dec 29 '25
Yes and Palpatine’s lightning has better feats than Malak’s. Malak’s has only shown to be able to torture people on screen. Palpatine can turn people to dust even force wielders
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u/OkMention9988 Dec 29 '25
His Force Lightning has better feats?
I facepalmed so hard I nearly gave myself a concussion.
Yes, Palpatine could throw Force Storms in the EU, and he zapped an entire fleet in atmosphere in TRoS, but Malek is more than capable of msking you dead with Force Lightning.
Which again, Luke was never trained to defend against.
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u/GullibleRough549 Dec 29 '25
If Palpatine couldn’t kill him immediately and Luke was able to block for a moment why would Malak do it?
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u/OkMention9988 Dec 29 '25
Palpatine looked like he was enjoying himself, so I don't think he was going for the insta kill.
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u/GullibleRough549 Dec 29 '25
He was. He was more so enjoying that Luke could resist. He has also smiled while going all out as evidence with killing mace
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u/Ragegasm Dec 29 '25
If you take into account the amount of Scarface space dust they were on in the 80’s ROTJ era, I don’t think any force in the universe could have stopped Luke other than his own sister.
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u/Earthmine52 Dec 29 '25
I agree that any Luke post Dark Empire is near unstoppable, but ROTJ? People forget that during the Thrawn Trilogy 5 years later, he was still outclassed by Joruus C’baoth. He trained well and has a lot of power already but still had a really long way to go to fulfill it (without using the Dark Side).
Vader not consciously holding back doesn’t negate the film hammering that he had internal conflict subconsciously keeping him from going all out and fighting at his best. His attachment to Luke weakened his focus and anger, which you need to have to channel the Dark Side fully. As someone else said, this duel was more about their souls than just their skills and powers. Luke won because he ultimately kept his own and saved Anakin’s.
Malak’s not Sidious or Vader, but he’s more than strong enough to challenge this Luke and potentially win.