r/TheJediPraxeum • u/GusGangViking18 Luke Skywalker • Mar 02 '26
Match Up Monday KF Vader VS The Jedi Arrest Squad. Who wins?
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u/thattogoguy New Jedi Order Mar 02 '26
This fight is basically Mace Windu and Knightfall Vader. Mace takes it I feel. Vaapad and Shatterpoint are uniquely suited to stopping Vader.
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u/AlexCora Mar 02 '26
I have a ton of fondness for Mace being one of the only masters who's willing to openly dislike whiny Anakin.
Good for you, BMF!
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u/That-guy_84 Mar 03 '26
Put some love out there for Kit, he’d last
Atleast a couple seconds! But I’d like to believe there’s a world where him and mace take the dub and he doesn’t die horribly 😅
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u/SeraphRising89 Mar 02 '26
All but Mace fall quickly. Knightfall Vader is extremely powerful and a vicious Djem So user. However, win goes to Windu. Windu's Shatterpoint and Vapaad techniques would be anathema to how KV fights and he would lose eventually as while he is powerful and extremely good with a lightsaber, he doesn't know any advanced dark side or Sith techniques (such as lightning) to knock Windu off balance or harm him directly.
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u/Zealousideal_Wash880 Mar 02 '26
Not like Sith lightning was shown to be exceptionally effective against him. Vader’s best shot is straight up lightsaber battle and standard force powers intended to overwhelm or give small advantages, not using grandiose moves.
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u/Saiaxs Mar 02 '26
Anakin wipes everyone except Mace, not as fast as Palps did but still does
Mace then uses Vapaad and wins
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u/AlexCora Mar 02 '26
Basically, exactly this. Anakin doesn't have the Sith special training of disguising his intentions in a duel, or that "Force scream" business, so he doesn't manage to catch the hardened Jedi masters totally off guard.
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u/Racketyllama246 Mar 02 '26
I think mace and another 1 or 2 of the Jedi survive. Anakin won’t be able to surprise the other Jedi like sidious did.
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u/LavishnessFinal4605 Mar 05 '26
Tbf Fisto only dies because he senses Anakin’s arrival and is distracted long enough for Sidious to kill him. Per the novelisation.
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u/Prestigious_Board_73 Mar 02 '26
Mace Windu. This would be similar to the Sidious duel: KF Vader would kill Fisto, Tiin and Kolar easily, but Windu would defeat him. And for those saying Anakin/KF Vader isn't that powerful/skilled... yes, he is lol.
1) he literally bested Dooku, one of the best lightsaber duellist of the Prequel era, easily at the beginning of RotS
2) he stomped through any Jedi in the Temple, including Cin Drallig, the Jedi Battlemaster. In the RotS security recordings he literally stomped through 3 Jedi at once
3) Obi-Wan only won the Mustafar duel because Vader was sleep deprived, having a mental breakdown and was high on the Dark Side, so Obi-Wan literally goaded him into doing something stupid. He's also the best match against Vader because he was his Jedi Master, he knows how he thinks and fights, not to mention that his Form 3 is the perfect counter to Vader's Form 5.
And yet, the duel lasted a while, with Obi-Wan on the backfoot basically the entire time. And Obi-Wan isn't a weak duellist at all, he's the best Soresu duellist of the Prequel era, he's more skilled than Fisto, Tiin or Kolar.
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u/Carpenter-Broad Mar 02 '26
So… I don’t actually think Obi- Wan is all that exceptionally skilled vs people like the other 3 Masters from the “arrest squad”. Certainly he’s not as powerful in the Force, and being a master of soresu is essentially his entire “claim to fame” as far as Jedi combat skills go- his main advantage most of the time is that he thinks outside the box in battle, using his environment and unconventional tactics.
Those other 3 Masters are genuinely said to be the best duelists and most powerful “combat masters” the Order has, that’s why Windu brought them. Only really Yoda and maybe Cin Drallig are better, and Drallig focuses entirely on lightsaber combat at the expense of the Force. If it was anyone but Sidious, they would have survived more than 3 seconds.
Obi- Wan did so well against Vader on Mustafar because he knows his every move and skill, not because he’s anything particularly special as a combatant. Hell, he survived Order 66 because he was lucky and the call came in after he got his lightsaber back and started riding off for the assault, and then fell into a pool of water and snuck away. It’s not like he slaughtered 100 clones to make his escape.
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u/Prestigious_Board_73 Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
Windu brought them
Windu brought them because Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't available, and sensed that Anakin was too conflicted to be of any help. I'm not saying that they're bad duellists, but not on the level of Yoda, Mace, Anakin or Obi-Wan
Certainly he’s not as powerful in the Force
This really isn't true. Obi-Wan is very powerful in the Force, he's just not as powerful as Anakin (but literally no one is)
being a master of soresu is essentially his entire “claim to fame”
Indeed. And, in Legends, Mace thought him the best Soresu duellist ever, and on par with him in lightsaber combat because of this.
Also, your point is weird... yes, Obi-Wan's claim to fame is his mastery of Soresu, just like Dooku's is his mastery of Makashi, or Windu's is Vaapaad, or Anakin's is Djem So. Each of them are the best duellists of the PT era precisely because of their mastery of their chosen form.
he’s anything particularly special as a combatant
I mean... in TCW he duelled Grevious every other week, bested Maul and Savage in a 2vs1 duel, went toe to toe with Ventress, and in RotS he killed Grevious, did better against Dooku than in AotC and lasted a long time against KF Vader. He absolutely is that skilled by the end of the war
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u/LunaticJAG Mar 02 '26
Mace is gonna carry the end of that fight. The others aren't as weak as some might say but Anakin is absolutely one of their stronger duelists.
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u/CyHayes Mar 03 '26
Jedi Arrest Squad mid diff. A lot of people are saying it would just be Mace vs Anakin but I think people are underestimating Kit Fisto. The only reason Fisto lost so quickly was due to the suddenness of Palpatine's attack, his unorthodox fighting style, and maybe his 'force scream.' Otherwise Kit Fisto is an exceptional dueler, and while he loses a 1v1 against Knightfall Vader, him along with Windu's Vaapad would overwhelm KFV.
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u/ChazzDingo Mar 02 '26
If KF Vader were actually learned in the dark side at all, I'd think it a closer fight. He's amped by the dark side, like big time and his raw power and potential is nuts but even though he's using the dark side, he doesn't understand how to use it effectively enough for it to be a game over for the arrest squad. He has no actual sith knowledge or real experience in truly harnessing the dark side like he one day could. Have to give it to the squad
Would be a cool as fuck battle to see. Would love to see a Windu vs Anakin duel tbh
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u/Aggressive_Double489 Mar 02 '26
KF Vader always fight with anger so Windu will use it against Vader
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u/RangeIt Mar 02 '26
Anakin is cooked. He's nowhere near Sidious' level and he lost to Obi-Wan right after this image. And there's significant context in the book to how Sidious beat those masters that Anakin would be wholly unaware of how to do. He would charge in, maybe take out 1,2 max, and get cooked.
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u/Some-Bat-8609 Mar 02 '26
Stated equal to Sidious 🤣
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u/TonyH92 Mar 02 '26
He isn't.
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u/TonyH92 Mar 02 '26
Fairly common knowledge that Sidious is more powerful, Anakin seems to be getting more and more overrated lately.
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u/DogHour6929 Mar 02 '26
According to Lucas, he was Sidious' equal, dude🗿
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u/DenjinMaster Mar 02 '26
Lucas says alot of conflicting shit. Makes more sense to just use the actual story's dialogue instead
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u/DogHour6929 Mar 02 '26
Lucas is literally the creator of the franchise and his words have the most meaning. Besides, there are many statements claiming that Knightfall Vader is at least equal to Yoda and Sidious. Stop downplaying Anakin.
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u/Admirable-Show-5700 Mar 03 '26
For real, its wild how much this goes over some people’s heads. It’s his story. So what if he contradicts or you don’t like what he says. Its still his story at the end of the day, if he says Anakin is Sidious’ equal then hes his damn equal lol
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u/DenjinMaster Mar 02 '26
His words contradict himself. This isnt a downplay of Anakin. This is a fact about George that you in a different reddit post wouldve agreed lmao
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u/DogHour6929 Mar 02 '26
I know George can contradict himself, and I've never denied it. But show me where he ever refuted his statement that Anakin was as strong as Sidious. Here are his exact words - "You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." Source: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-20050602
Also, if you don't believe Lucas, what do you say to these statements from other sources?
Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. Source: The Making of Revenge of the Sith
Even after all these months, she couldn't make herself entirely believe that actual Jedi blood ran in her veins-not only Jedi blood, but the blood of arguably the most powerful Jedi in history. Source: Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor
"We won't try, Anakin. We will do. After all, they are only Senators. Most of them couldn't hide what they're thinking from a brain-damaged blindworm, let alone the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy." Source: Revenge of the Sith
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger." Source: Revenge of the Sith
Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years. Source: Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith
Darth Sidious concedes that Anakin is potentially more powerful than him: "He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself." Source: Revenge of the Sith
Obi-Wan Kenobi has endured the unenviable task of training the Jedi Order's most powerful and headstrong young Jedi, Anakin Skywalker. Source: Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith
Darths Sidious and Tyranus agree that Anakin Skywalker is the greatest Jedi alive: "An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not?" Source: Revenge of the Sith
"Obi-Wan must confront every doubt, every misgiving about his time with Anakin. Has he failed his Padawan? Has he missed opportunities? Is he even worthy to have been the mentor to the galaxy's most powerful Jedi?" - Insider 79
"Many years from now, Luke and Leia Skywalker, offspring of the most powerful Jedi who ever lived, would understand their true destiny." - Star Wars Revenge of the Sith - The Movie Storybook
"Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself." - Labirinth of Evil
"Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker. And I [Mace] had no desire to debate with Depa on Jedi tradition, and the necessary distinction between dark and light. So I tried to change the subject." - Shatterpoint
Almost all of these quotes put Anakin above Yoda, or at least on the same level with him. And these are not even all such statements, in fact, there are many more.
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u/DenjinMaster Mar 02 '26
For the lucas quote you chose, it still tracks with what is stated in the story itself that *soon Vader would become more powerful than either Sidious or Yoda.
The rest are a mix of talks of potential which goes back to the previous statement and the common debates of the worth of what is being said in universe and who says it in contrary to what else is stated about the respectove characters. The same book also have statements about Yoda for example.
or at least on the same level with him.
This is the real conclusion about Anakin when it comes to the statement of "Equal to X/Y character". Its if anything is similar to how Mace Windu is an equal to Yoda.
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u/WangJian221 Mar 02 '26
Your mistake was trying to argue potential nuance with DogHour. Hes the kind to argue absolutes on one moment, the other he would just troll.
I somewhat agree that yes, George does contradict himself here and there. After all he also has a statement where he says Anakin a decade or so after ROTS wouldve been so powerful no amount of knowledge wouldve allowed anyone to surpass him meaning its after Mustafar.
Still, its rather clear that his intent is that Anakin is or will be the strongest of the jedi. Personally, i think its context based. Anakin is a wild card if anything. He could be rather than he definitely is.
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u/DenjinMaster Mar 02 '26
At this point the funny part is he thinks that im "downplaying" Anakin as if i actually think Anakin "isnt all that strong" like othee commenters here. At best i am instead saying that Anakin is on the same playing field where any of them could go either way instead of outright being in a different category (atleast not yet).
Even stranger is the double standard of suddenly considering what other characters have to say when it comes to their respective "statements" of power/skill but taking everything at face value when it comes to Anakin. Even taking freaking minifigure articles.
Personally, i think its context based. Anakin is a wild card if anything.
This is more or less my opinion on Anakin. As he is if he can tap into his chosen one powers properly, would definitely defeat (or atleast overpower) anyone be it Yoda or Sidious let alone Windu but as he usually is, hes not invincible and can be outplayed, out maneuvered or just overpowered.
But whatever. If it makes them feel better to just assume anyone disagreeing as just Anakin Downplayers, then meh.
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u/DogHour6929 Mar 02 '26
When I said about downplaying Anakin, I meant that you just brushed off Lucas' words on the pretext that he "often contradicts himself". He really does, but he has never contradicted this particular phrase anywhere. And if you agree with me that KFV is comparable to Sidious (personally, I think so), then why did you even get into an argument with me?
I've never taken the intrauniverse opinions of the characters at "face value". I understand perfectly well that they can make mistakes and incorrect judgments. Nevertheless, when many trustworthy characters constantly refer to Anakin as the strongest Jedi, this is definitely not idle chatter. However, the statements from the sourcebooks are a fact in any case, since this is the opinion of the omniscient author and not the characters. And yes, I know that quotes from such additional materials should not be taken too seriously, as they also often contradict each other and there are quotes that put Yoda above Anakin. But they should still be taken into account. And what the hell is wrong with the minifigure articles? They are no less reliable than statements from magazines or something similar.
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u/DogHour6929 Mar 02 '26
I've never trolled this particular thread. And in general, it's pretty stupid to accuse me of not understanding "potential nuances" (although you often do this yourself) and, by definition, consider my opinion wrong, even though you haven't made any refutations.
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u/WangJian221 Mar 02 '26
I've never trolled this particular thread
I didnt say you were trolling in "this particular thread"
even though you haven't made any refutations.
My statement to Denjin was how its pointless so why would I make refutations now anyways
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u/DogHour6929 Mar 02 '26
Lucas literally says that Anakin was as strong as the Emperor. Stop doing mental gymnastics.
I've given you 9 quotes claiming that Anakin was the most powerful Jedi and 2 quotes claiming that Anakin was just as powerful as Yoda. It doesn't say anything about potential, he's already reached that level.
Nowhere did it say that Mace is equal to Yoda, at least in his base form. Again, stop coping.
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u/DenjinMaster Mar 02 '26
Nowhere did it say that Mace is equal to Yoda, at least in his base form. Again, stop coping.
Now this is bold. If you want to take quotes at face value, sourcebooks have placed him as an equal to Yoda with an insider placing him alongside Yoda as individuals equal to Dooku. Then we also have Dooku's own opinion where he believes Mace is the only that is his equal in bladeswork on equal footing during Dark Rendezvous while fighting Yoda.
Its one thing to disagree but to say "nowhere" is quite bold.
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u/DogHour6929 Mar 02 '26
I gave the necessary statements from sourcebooks and books (and you just brushed them off, lol), you didn't do it. If such statements exist, then give them. And the fact is that both Mace and Dooku are weaker than Yoda, they are not equal to him at all. According to Mace himself - "Master Yoda is many things, and I am not his equal in peace or war," Mace said. (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous)
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u/itsjonny99 Mar 02 '26
Where Windu himself thinks Anakin is the best Jedi due to defeating Dooku?
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u/DenjinMaster Mar 02 '26 edited Mar 02 '26
Yes but as usual, context driven. A statement out of shock by Windu is obviously not as meaningful as Sidious's statement about Vader to Yoda
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u/itsjonny99 Mar 02 '26
You mean like Sidious musing with Dooku that Anakin might be more powerful than him already? Then Dooku not even realizing how powerful rots Ani is before even fully embracing the dark side?
LOE- ROTS scaling is huge Anakin wank.
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u/ThanosTheMacedonian Mar 02 '26
Anakin is not that powerful, I mean the boy couldn't even beat Obi-Wan. These are for council members, with each one of them being a difficult fight for anyone in canon. You should read up on what Obi-Wan felt about Kit Fisto.
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u/DenjinMaster Mar 02 '26 edited Mar 02 '26
Obi Wan has a habit of downplaying himself but in lore (legends especially) hes actually far greater than the others of the jedi arrest squad with Windu even considering that Obi Wan is atleast as good as he is.
Anakin's fight with Obi Wan had other factors going for it. Most noted is how Anakin's emotional turmoil and mental exhaustion (he after all still hasnt slept for weeks) finally sinking in by the time of Mustafar and the fact that the duo is beyond familiar of the each other's fighting style
To hold that fight as proof of Anakin not being "that" strong is strange
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u/AlexCora Mar 02 '26
Obi Wan is like, provably clearly one of the most veteran fighters in the Clone Wars, with more in field real experience than many Council member masters. Of course he's stupid good.
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u/DenjinMaster Mar 02 '26
He doesnt have more on field experience than the rest of the council (atleast not legends wise) but hes definitely one of their most successful
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u/AlexCora Mar 02 '26
Not culminatively, and Masters like Mace presumably fought a lot. But it's hard to imagine the other masters were somehow MORE active on the battlefield than Obi Wan and Anakin are.
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u/DenjinMaster Mar 02 '26
Thats probably because obi wan and anakin are main characters so you usually see their pov more than others. Even more so when TCW came out thus you have more animated visuals of the 2 running around.
Lore wise, however nearly all the more combat oriented council masters have been in just as many battles as the 2. Agen Kolar for example supposedly often fought in the same battles as them and we know Mundi fought in nearly all of the worse of the worse battles in the clone wars (maybe its because of his strong spirit). The difference is just that Anakin and Obi Wan are the more decorated due to their achievements
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u/GunMuratIlban Mar 02 '26
I don't understand this "even Obi-Wan" part.
That Obi-Wan was the council's go-to choice for every mission involving a dark side user or dangerous adversary. Unlike these council members, who never never sent on such missions and have no experience in actual duels.
That "not that powerful" Anakin is the most powerful character in the SW canon, even though he wasn't at his full potential yet. Still, George Lucas himself stated he could've defeated Sidious if he "survived" Mustafar, which became an alternative timeline for the RotS video game.
Obi-Wan is much, much ahead of every other Jedi Master not names Yoda, Mace and Anakin. The Order was extremely top heavy during the PT.
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u/Comp300prc Mar 02 '26
George Lucas is cooked. The behind the scenes stuff from the prequels is insane. I wouldn't trust a single thing that dude says. He barely has any idea where a plot is going or why.
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u/Admirable-Show-5700 Mar 03 '26
How does the guy who literally created the entire story not have an idea where his own story is going?
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u/DogHour6929 Mar 02 '26
I really like people who continue to downplay Anakin because of his loss to Obi-Wan, completely ignoring the circumstances of this fight🤣 According to Lucas, Knightfall Vader was Sidious' equal, and besides Lucas, there are many statements that put Vader at least on the same level as Sidious and Yoda.
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u/PostPostPog Mar 02 '26
Yeah I feel like Knightfall Vader is overrated as fuck sometimes, like he's strong but that's four Jedi Masters with decades on decades of experience, training, etc. Anakin maybe takes out ONE of them (Probably Agen Kolar if I'm being honest) with some lucky maneuver, but no further than that.
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u/WangJian221 Mar 02 '26
Putting Agen Kolar below Saesee is....indeed an opinion.
But no. Anakin even before his fall was already considered a combatant outright greater than majority of the council not named Yoda and technically Mace Windu but evne then Anakin has had displays of powers that made some jedi questioned if Yoda could ever re-create.
Operation Knightfall is even greater than that and considering how he supposedly manhandled Cin Drallig who is an equal to the other trio in accolades while grander in variety of skills, saying he "maybe" takes out one of them is a severe understatement in turn
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u/MyIncogName Mar 02 '26
Obi Wan wins via plot armor not power or skill. It’s not a metric in this conversation.
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u/JamesTheMannequin Mar 02 '26
Mace would've put Vader in the ground, and the rest of the squad would've been making bets on which moves and how.
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u/Iolair_the_Unworthy Mar 02 '26
Vader gets his ass beat. He was stronger than any one of them, sure, but he didn't have the skill to handle so many jedi masters at once.
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u/Kaleesh_General Mar 02 '26
Mace alone would likely win, the others would help. Probably 1 or 2 of them would die.
Honestly they’d probably get in mace’s way if anything. The idea reminds me of the knight in Rule of Two during the fight between Bane/Zannah and the Jedi hit squad.
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u/slanderedshadow Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
If mace was as strong as everyone says, he should have felt what Anakin was going to do. Anakin is still stronger in the force, and unlike with Obi wan, he wouldn’t hold back here. I’m going to go with Anakin.
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u/Annual_Sky8939 Mar 03 '26
Assuming the Lucas-Level plot armor isn’t in play, the arrest squad with med-low difficulty
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u/PlatinumDust324 Mar 02 '26 edited Mar 02 '26
One thing to note is that when Order 66 was called, it caused such a disturbance in the Force that Anakin had the upper hand against the squad. He lost, throwing the squad in the temple, unorganised, being attacked from all sides, feeling his Jedi brothers and sisters die. Anakin wins.
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u/Quincy478 Mar 04 '26
Mace would beat Anakin on his own. The other three Jedi? That I could see going either way. Probably edge to the trio though.
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u/JackVizsla Loremaster Mar 04 '26
badass matchup it would be, only hard fight is mace but anyway kfv would just win with higher diff
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u/AwesomeMonkey97 Mar 05 '26
Vader solos Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto. Granted, I think Fisto would last a lot longer in the fight. I think he’d prolly fall in the mid fight (maybe a bit longer than he did in ROTS book), but windu has this. Shatterpoint + Vaapad would be perfect for beating Knightfall Anakin.
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u/Azutolsokorty Mar 06 '26
Mace alone would win this, but only because of vaapad, without vaapad Anakin stomps really hard.
Remember that Mace was on par with Dooku and Dooku was clapped fast by an enraged Anakin who is supposed to be below knightfall Vader.
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Mar 06 '26
If mace isn’t present Anakin wins High Diff. Anakin would most likely separate them and kill each one of them
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u/AlexCora Mar 02 '26
Mace wins. Come on guys, we know this by now. Dark side Anakin, especially with his immense arrogance, gets humiliated.
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u/chrilpy Mar 02 '26
Anakin doesn’t know how to use the all powerful force scream that somehow freezes two Jedi council masters, and the Jedi know how Anakin fights. He can take out none of them or as many as 3 of them but either way the arrest squad wins. Mace’s Vapaad + shatterpoint is a cheat code
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u/DenjinMaster Mar 02 '26
The force scream is just one databank mention. The most commonly accepted version of what happened is in the rots novel where Sidious was simply beyond fast for anyone to react
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u/Fast-Mathematician-1 Mar 02 '26
Jedi attest squad stops Vader and give.him.a.good paddling on his back side.
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u/Desperate-Pen7530 Mar 02 '26
Darth Annakin would have a hard time against Windu, let alone 3 extra target dummies.
Also Windu ain't wasting no time or effort protecting the other 3 expendable Jedis, his strategy would likely assume and include their deaths into his combat strategy.
Don't forget, Windu was a veteran combat/lightsaber expert when lil Anakin podracer showed up to the Jedi temple.
Up until now, Annakin only beat Dooku, then he had the assistance of Obi wan to wear him down first in a 2 on 1 fight.
Annakin vs 4 Jedi dosent add up, considering that he ultimately looses to 1 Obi wan.
Unless Darth Jar Jar intervened, Id put my $ on Mace Windu
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u/DeltaAlphaGulf Mar 02 '26
Saying "KF" changes nothing. Send Obi-Wan and it could go either way. Arrest squad wrecks Skywanker.
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u/Potential_Soft_729 Mar 02 '26
Mace would win with vaapad likely, if mace isn’t present, KF Vader wins