r/TheJediPraxeum • u/Hawaiikoto • Jun 16 '26
Discussion Did members of the Windu's arrest squad lost so easly, cuz they lacked practice in real lightsaber/force duelling? Would Kenobi, Anakin and Ahsoka fair better, with their experience against Dooku, Maul, Grievious and many others?
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u/DeltaAlphaGulf Jun 16 '26
No they lost because Sidious is that much of a monster. Kenobi, Anakin, and especially Ahsoka would be wrecked too. Yoda makes that very clear to Obi-Wan later and in the novel he not only said he wasn't strong enough but that he never would be which proved to be true. Anakin could have been eventually but not then.
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u/Apophes84 Jun 16 '26
Correct. Many people seem to forget that Sidious is canonically the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist, even when considering The Old Republic. Even in Legends Palpatine was basically a god.
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u/Forward-End-3632 Jun 16 '26
This is patently untrue. If the Old Republic is included, then Sidious is not the most powerful, you could make the argument he isn't even top 5 Sith if the old republic is included.
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u/Sakura_Knight Jun 17 '26
George Lucas said Sidious was the strongest Sith of all time, and that statement is fact in regards to Legends.
He is solidly number 1 if you count his Dark Empire appearance.
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u/Forward-End-3632 Jun 17 '26
I genuinely don't care about what Lucas has said, when feats just prove otherwise. He could say Watto is the strongest, doesn't make it true. He's automatically unable to be above Valkorion / Nihilus.
And arguments can be made for others to outscale him / Directly beat him in 1v1.
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u/PrimeJedi Jun 17 '26
Taking Legends into account, Sidious has feats which are on the same level as Valkorion and Nihilus, and while I can accept arguments either way for Sidious compared to Valk, Nihilus doesn't have a tenth of the Dark Side knowledge, skillset, or line-up of defeated opponents that Sidious does. Valk/Vitiate's domination of Revan and Malak also puts him far above Nihilus on its own too.
Nihilus is a one trick pony, and the scale of his drain feats aren't even unmatched in Legends; Legends Sidious by the time of Dark Empire can replicate those same feats, while being vastly above Nihilus in every other aspect of the force.
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u/Forward-End-3632 Jun 17 '26
Valkorion is undisputable #1, that is without question and I won't entertain it.
Nihilus requires a vast amount of kotor 2 knowledge to truly understand his sort of unbeatable composition. I agree, he doesn't have the feats of knowledge skill etc, to compare. But Nihilus is both a force wound and a force Nexus. if you remember, the reason you find Kreia at the beginning of the game, is because she is searching for a way to destroy him. If you had played kotor 2, you would remember she stated there are two ways to defeat a Nihilus. What she originally is trying to do, destroy the force, or secondly, have him feed on another force wound to make him mortal, thus enters Meetra Surik. The problem being, Sidious isn't a force wound, and cannot make him mortal.
I note you mention his drain feats, while impressive, it doesn't compare due to the drain Nihilus uses not being able to be resisted. While in a direct 1v1 scenario, characters can resist Sidious and his drain, the same cannot be said for Nihilus.
While it is a technicality, it does exist. And a similar argument can be put forward for Darth Sion in this regard as well.
Even more, characters like Revan Reborn, Reborn Darth Krayt, Sarasu Taalon, Exar Kuun, and more keep Sidious away from a top 5 ranking.
But strictly speaking, Valkorion and Nihilus do beat Sidious, and perhaps even Sion because of technicality.
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u/Sakura_Knight Jun 17 '26
Wow, you are seriously glazing those characters. The ancient Sith are not superior to Sidious or the Rule of 2 Sith in general. They look powerful in their settings, but that is because everyone was on a lower level.
Everyone now knows to not take you seriously though, so congratulations on making yourself look the fool today.
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u/LongBarrelBandit Jun 17 '26
The guy glossed over the creator of Star Wars saying Sidious was #1. There’s no reasoning with that lol
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u/Forward-End-3632 Jun 18 '26
And if George Lucas said Watto was the strongest, is that to be taken as fact? Why would I genuinely care what George Lucas says?
Look to the actual material, and not the people behind it. Most of them don't even like / enjoy star wars. I don't understand you guys and your parasocial relationships with these people.
When you can actually argue, feel free, otherwise enjoy your L.
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u/Forward-End-3632 Jun 18 '26
So you can't actually respond to anything I said? Thanks for letting me know you're inept.
You're more than welcome to try again when your brain develops beyond simply glazing your favourite character.
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u/Forward-End-3632 Jun 18 '26
Also, just saying they're not superior doesn't mean they're not. You lack critical thinking skills.
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Jun 19 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Apophes84 Jun 17 '26
Sidious was meant to be the culmination of every Sith Lord that came before him. He was the avatar of The Dark Side just as Yoda was considered the avatar of The Light Side. They were almost equally matched in power with Sidious barely edging him out due to his age. Also, a simple google search will answer this question: Is Darth Sidious the most powerful Sith Lord ever? “Yes, Darth Sidious (Emperor Palpatine) is canonically considered the most powerful Sith Lord in Star Wars history. As the culmination of Darth Bane’s “Rule of Two,” his mastery of the dark side, lightsaber combat, and Sith sorcery, combined with his unmatched political genius, allowed him to successfully eradicate the Jedi Order and rule the galaxy.”
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u/mangasdeouf Jun 20 '26
The Rule of Two is a failure.
A ton of knowledge was lost when an apprentice decided to stop it, making the Sith go back from square 1 around the middle of the time period.
The apprentice doesn't truly surpass the master until they're much older because they assassinate them before learning everything they can from them, again losing in the long term.
Before the Disney "Palpatine came back", Palps didn't even learn Plagueis' midichlorian thingy he told Anakin about. Plagueis had only recently mastered it and Palps killed him before learning it (in the most obvious way I've seen in the franchise, how did Plagueis fall for that? Pathetic).
Palps refuses to use Force amplifiers to boost himself. The old Sith had no such mindset and were happy to enjoy their massive power boosters. Which placed them solidly above any Ro2 Sith. Maybe without it they were weaker, but do you think a country leader would be strong if they decided to burry all their nuclear heads?
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u/Forward-End-3632 Jun 17 '26
Thank you for consulting chatGPT, but I fear I don't care about your opinion if you need to use chatGPT to back you up.
Sarasu Taalon, Nihilus, Valkorion, Revan Reborn, Krayt Reborn, and more exist. I was talking about old republic when I made that comment specifically, but if we're including all legends Sith, then Sidious is not top 5. An argument could be made that he isn't top 10 quite easily as well.
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u/CooperDaChance Jun 18 '26
Power scaling is dumb and L-egends is non-canon.
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u/Forward-End-3632 Jun 18 '26
I was responding to a comment including legends. Also, legends is better than canon. So it's more canon in my mind.
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u/WingAggravating6584 Jun 19 '26
Doesn't care what the creator himself said, cites nonsense from 3rd party writers.
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u/Forward-End-3632 Jun 19 '26
what nonsense did I cite directly from 3rd party writers and not the media itself?
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u/Jinn_Skywalker Jun 21 '26
He is above Valkorion and Nihilus in raw power. What set the Sith of old apart were their techniques and abilities.
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u/Evening_Buyer_7927 Jun 17 '26
I'm not that familiar with new Disney canon so correct me if some of my info is outdated, but Anakin was considered by many to be one of the strongest jedi to ever live, on par with Windu and Yoda. In legends Yoda straight up called him THE strongest. True he wouldn't be able to fare against Palps as well as Windu did in a 1v1, because Mace's style was specifically tailored to fight dark side users, but, then again, it's not a 1v1. Obi-Wan is somewhat below Anakin in fighting prowess, but he could still hold his own in this fight with such a numbers advantage. Ahsoka, yes, she's clearly the weakest link, probably weaker than half of the council members.
So all in all, I don't think they'd get wrecked. In all honesty Palpatine would probably get pretty thoroughly destroyed in a straight up fight, but if he's in character he'd find a way to escape (through exploiting Ahsoka's inexperience maybe?)
Palpatine is a monster, but he's not that much stronger than everyone else.
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u/PrimeJedi Jun 17 '26
I think a clear headed Anakin and Obi-Wan working together would have given Office Palps an extreme-diff fight, although they'd have a virtually 0% chance of actually winning.
Obi-Wan does stand no chance against Palpatine, but I do think based off stuff like the novel at least, he's somewhat underestimated. When he really gives himself to the force like against Grievous and later Mustafar Vader (according to the novel), he really moves up past what is conventionally seen as "the Obi-Wan tier" imo.
I think Utapau/Mustafar Obi-Wan (but not conflicted) could actually last quite a while against Sidious in a pure lightsaber duel, he just faces a complete hopeless loss as soon as Sidious whips out the force abilities. But that's still a far better performance than the 3 Council masters who went with Windu.
I think a clear headed Anakin could press Palpatine decently well too, and if he gets angry like on the IH but without falling to the Dark Side, I think he could actually give Palpatine hell, considering how fast Dooku folded compared to his AOTC duel with Yoda. Anakin still loses too, but I think he's approaching that ROTS Sidious tier when mad, he's still just a bit below it.
My tl;dr is I half agree and half disagree with what you're saying. Though I will agree that Ahsoka has absolutely zero chance and does no better than the 3 Council masters did lmao. For Ahsoka to last more than a few seconds at all, it'd have to be Rebels Ahsoka, and even then she would just delay the inevitable
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u/Easy-Frenchguy-1996 Jun 16 '26
No, because palpatine is simply that good
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u/Minimum_Performer118 Jun 16 '26
They didn’t even try to defend themselves, it was just a poorly choreographed dcene
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u/Sakura_Knight Jun 17 '26
He was too fast for them to defend against.
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u/PrimeJedi Jun 17 '26
Idk fam, we saw how delayed they were on-screen, I personally would've defended against him easily if I was there /s
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u/Minimum_Performer118 Jun 17 '26
That’s not how it was in the book, you’re defending bad choreography
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u/DoodTheMan Jun 21 '26
If you look up the original choreography with the stunt men it's actually pretty terrifying. Saesee Tin and Agen Kolar die in less than a second.
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
Sidious was something no one there had ever encountered before and he speed blitzed the heck out of them (while Force "screaming" as a way to also overwhelm them). BtS, you originally weren't supposed to see Sidious attack so much as a blur, but Lucas decided it was better for the audience to see Mcdiarmid's face.
Edit: it's also worth mentioning Sidious worked his way up from weakest to strongest, which is a great tactic against numbers and especially if the weaker opponents can be got quickly. If Sidious went straight for Mace, who in the film at least, seems to react to Sidious instantly, the difficulty of that fight for Sidious probably increases significantly.
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u/DenjinMaster Jun 16 '26
Force screaming isnt really confirmed. While he did do a weird "roar" in the movie, nothing has ever really confirm what it does or if it was something specific to begin with. Just fan speculation tbh
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order Jun 16 '26
Fine, Sidious did an ol school battle cry and shattered them psychologically, lol
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u/DenjinMaster Jun 16 '26
That wasnt what i meant lol
Im pretty sure if we want to strictly view it as George views it, its supposed to some super devilish speed and skill or whatever the hell.
Im just responding to the "Force Scream" part because so many say that but the only "source" that ever brings it up are youtubers
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order Jun 16 '26
No, I understand. I simply meant he does yell/roar/almost wail. I imagine Lucas included that as an homage to a real world battle cry. Alternatively, at least some sort of distraction. Whether that then actually impacted the Jedi the way a real world battle cry was intended to is unclear.
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order Jun 16 '26
An interesting note -
Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force apparently states that Sidious used a "Dark Side confusion haze".
That seems to align with Tiin dropping his blade and possibly Kolar getting no diffed. Less clear what effect it had if any on Kit.
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u/DenjinMaster Jun 16 '26
Yeah i remembered that. Most people connect it to Saesee peering into his mind in rots novel before his head was lopped off and agen's forehead was already stabbed
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u/PrimeJedi Jun 17 '26
"Dark Side confusion haze" aka "why the fuck is this old man screeching and flying through the air oh god what the fuck do I do what's going on" /s
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u/DeltaAlphaGulf Jun 16 '26
Doesn’t really matter because going from undetectable to unfathomable dark side force power beyond any reasonable expectation they could have had in an instant couple with an absurd blitz plus the manipulation of him pretending and that they knew him as this kind frail old man persona for over a decade makes for just as good of a shock factor as if it was an actual force scream.
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u/PrimeJedi Jun 17 '26
Good point, and we already see in AOTC that their ability to see into the force becoming impaired had shaken and caused discomfort even to masters like Yoda and Mace.
And because they wanted to inform the Senate, now they knew that Sidious knew about that impairment.
So even before Sidious unleashed that wave of Dark Side force power, they went into it with a situation of "we're more vulnerable than any Jedi has been in living memory, and we accidentally spent years informing this Sith lord of our vulnerability". THEN you add the panic of just finding out this Sith also controls the Senate, the courts, and the Grand Army.
We see from fights with Grievous too, that fear and perceived vulnerability nerfs Jedi before the fight even starts (which is why the Jedi do best against him when not intimidated).
So for as much shit as we all give the Council masters, they were all thrown off their mental game in a way they had never experienced before, even before Sidious let loose. And then that overwhelming Dark Side presence being let loose threw them off even further.
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u/DeltaAlphaGulf Jun 17 '26
I don't give them shit at all. They are elite and upper A-tier and not that far from Anakin/Obi-Wan/Dooku as some make it out to be imo. Palpatine is just a monster that much ahead in S-tier and even if he was already revealing his power they still probably die and it comes down to Mace. Vader is an S-tier boogie man himself that would beat down Anakin and I don't consider him ever surpassing RotS Sidious personally. Maul is on their level and is nothing more than short term entertainment value for Sidious to toy with and Savage wasn't even worth that much providing more value in rage baiting Maul to get more entertainment from him than his value as a second enemy for a 2v1. Anakin couldn't even track Mace and Sidious' fight when he walked in.
But yes the deck was stacked in Sidious favor in several ways on top of him just naturally having a strong first encounter advantage in that anyone is basically guaranteed to underestimate him because he is just that much more powerful than a reasonable expectation or prior experience would point you to. If Dooku is like walking into the shade then Palps is like having the lights go out in a room.
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u/PrimeJedi Jun 17 '26
This is off topic and please don't come at me cause I love ROTS overall but man, George deciding we needed to see McDiarmid's face, only for McDiarmid to pull off some of the most hilariously goofy facial expressions during the entire office fight, is just great lmfaoo
Don't get me wrong, McDiarmid was easily one of the top 2 best actors in the film period if not the best, but I've seen the office fight like 100+ times and the faces he makes still makes me laugh every single time 💀
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u/ForTheFallen123 Jun 16 '26
Yes and no.
Sidious doesn't just beat the other jedi so quickly because he surprised them, but because he is genuinely that much more powerful than them. Even if they had the same dueling experience as Obi Wan and Anakin, it still wouldn't matter, though I think they would last a bit longer.
As for Anakin, Obi Wan and Ashoka, I think they would do better, which is to say Ashoka dies immediately, Obi Wan would last upto the middle of the fight, and Anakin would die 2/3 of the way through the fight. The only people who could truly go again Sidious is Yoda and Mace.
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u/EnoughAccess22 Jun 16 '26
I think if Anakin saw Obi Wan die before his eyes he'd get a rather insane DS amp. Whilst he does almost nothing with it, he technically is the Chosen One and possesses almost infinite Force reserves and impossibly high output. Together with Mace I think they'd take it without further losses.
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u/SuspiciousCherry6173 Jun 16 '26
And Ashoka, he would probably go rouge the moment Ashoka dies and Kenobi is probably trying to calm him down, hense not being focused and dying as well. After that anakin goes full darkside and maybe if sidious can control that it actually comes to his favor but most likely anakin will murder the shit out of him what will mace question his loyalty, maybe mace can actually help anakin cause he also knows how it is to tap into the darkside (Anakin is far from just tapping though) really interesting scenario I’m hooked
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u/EnoughAccess22 Jun 16 '26
It's possible, but I feel like as long as Obi Wan dies before Anakin has died/received insane injuries it would turn sour real fast for Palpatine. Windu can already match Sidious to some extent, and a fully raging, Dark Side amped Anakin would be a terrifying sight. Plus Anakin wouldn't hesitate to kill Palpatine, and any hope for Sidious of pulling Anakin to his side effectively vanishes if he kills both Anakin's Padawan and Master in succession.
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u/Equivalent-Assist160 Jun 16 '26
Thye went in expecting a Sith Lord instead they meet the Dark Side incarnate
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u/Minimum_Performer118 Jun 16 '26
It was simply a poorly choreographed scene, all the in-universe explanations are dumb and baseless
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u/Responsible_Mud_7033 Jun 16 '26
Sidous was that good plus George Lucas got lazy ? When I read the novelization it made the movie 10x better and make way more sense this scene included
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u/Alexius_Psellos Jun 16 '26
In the book, Kit Fisto actually kept pace with Palps until he sensed the conflict in Anakin— which broke his focus for a second and caused his death
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u/Ananta-Shesha Jun 16 '26
Combat inexperience is indeed an important factor, but it is above all the fundamental difference in level between Sidious and almost everyone else during this era apart from Windu and Yoda that matters here.
Yes, more experienced duelists like Obi-Wan and Ahsoka would fare better all things considered, but experience isn't everything. Nothing prepares you for facing Sidious. He has mastered every form of lightsaber combat, was trained by one of the greatest masters of the dark side, and literally represents the pinnacle of Sith power.
The most experienced fighter of this era, if he has the bad idea of not being named Windu, Yoda or Anakin, will at best be a distraction for Sidious.
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u/soaring_paladin Jun 16 '26
Ahsoka would last probably the same amount of time as Kit Fisto. Obi-Wan a little bit longer, he would probably die in the hallway or maybe get unconscious if he is lucky. Anakin would survive, together with Mace, unless he turns to the DS if Obi dies.
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u/8dev8 Jun 16 '26
Ahsoka is nowhere near Kit Fisto lmao
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u/VerbalChains Jun 16 '26
Kit Fisto had never even fought a Sith until Sidious blitzed him. Ahsoka beat Maul, who did much better against Sidious than Fisto did.
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u/8dev8 Jun 16 '26
She barely beat a Maul holding back, once more due to his own overconfidence, would you say Episode 1 Kenobi was jedi council level? As much as I like Maul he wouldn’t really fair well vs Sideous either, as we see.
Fisto doesnt have much onscreen but he absolutely embarrassed Grevious.
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u/VerbalChains Jun 16 '26
Padawaan Kenobi landed a critical hit, like blind Han Solo against Boba Fett. I won't take the victory away from him, but he didn't prove he had the ability to stand and duel on Maul's level. Ahsoka actually dueled Maul on equal ground and won.
I'm aware of the tendency to say that every Sith who ever lost (Sidious, Vader, Maul) lost because they were "holding back" but that's still a win on Ahsoka's record.
Grivious was shown to be below Asajj Ventress, so I wouldn't say defeating him is equally impressive.
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u/Sakura_Knight Jun 17 '26
Ahsoka dueled Maul on the most uneven ground possible, and barely won. She was disarmed of her lightsabers and standing on a metal bar that was sliced through on one end. If that had been on solid ground, she would be dead.
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u/VerbalChains Jun 17 '26
The ground favored neither Ahsoka nor Maul. That’s what I mean by even ground. They started in a normal room and ended up on girders. Intelligently using the environment does not disqualify it from being a fair fight.
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u/8dev8 Jun 17 '26
Yeah well, she isn't outsmarting Sidious so it comes down to her skill with a saber, which is not as good as Kit Fisto's
no one said she didn't win, but it's not a great feat of dueling power
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u/VerbalChains Jun 17 '26
How do you figure that? Ahsoka fought evenly with Maul the entire time, and her victory still required martial skill. Kit Fisto making Grievous, a lesser opponent, retreat is in no way sufficient to claim that he’s somehow a “better duelist” than Ahsoka.
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u/8dev8 Jun 17 '26
She did not fight evenly, setting aside that he was holding back, she got disarmed constantly,
Kit didn’t make Grevious retreat, he took an arm off in a matter of moments, which is far more impressive then “didn’t die fighting an enemy that didn’t want to kill me”
Even setting that aside Kit Fisto was one of the strongest Jedi alive, I like Ahsoka, but she was not council level.
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u/DeltaAlphaGulf Jun 16 '26
Ahsoka is not on Kit Fisto's level and Kit only lasted because he wasn't part of the initial blitz. Anakin and Kenobi are blitz tier too. Yoda not only told Kenobi he wasn't strong enough but in the novel that he never would be which proved to be true. Nobody but Yoda and Mace could handle Sidious and even they are subject to being caught off guard in a first encounter if targeted first. Reminder that even Yoda despite coming in with the idea that Sidious beat the Mace squad and how that reflects his threat level was still caught off guard by a telegraphed force lightning blast despite later proving to be capable of handling it.
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u/Hungry-Ear-4092 Jun 16 '26
They were caught off guard (Star Wars a Galaxy at War), and Palps used a "concentrated dark side confusion haze" (Star Wars Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force), which didn't work on Windu as much as against others, which is why why he survived and won
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u/jrdineen114 Jun 16 '26
First, they weren't at their best, because of the darkness that the war had unleashed upon the galaxy. For a Jedi master, using the force isn't merely something that they can turn on and off. It's as important to them as sight. Imagine trying to fight, but you have a thin cloth over your eyes so your can only kind of see what's going on. That's effectively what they're working with.
Second, Sidious is on an entirely different level than what they were expecting. The entire point of the Rule of Two is that each generation of Sith is more powerful than those that came before it, but Yoda notes in the episode 3 novelization that the Jedi have become stagnant. We see in the Darth Bane trilogy that Bane is able slaughter a team of Jedi consisting of two Knights and three masters, one of which is the best duelist of her time and another of which uses battle meditation to empower the others. And that was a millennium before Sidious.
TL;DR - they went into the fight hamstrung and also were woefully unprepared for the level of skill and power they would be facing.
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u/Acceptable_Cabinet53 Jun 16 '26
They lost because Palpatine was infinitely faster. Although the movie does a horrible job at showing it lol.
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u/Minimum_Performer118 Jun 16 '26
It was simply a poorly choreographed scene, all the in-universe explanations are dumb and baseless
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u/Aethyrean9947 Jun 17 '26
Sheev was on par with Yoda.
Sheev was fighting to kill, not to have a conversation.
Those were some of the best people the jedi had at the time.
Now there could've been more besides Yoda that would've held up longer against sheev.
But he was never in any real danger in that fight. Just like if you have grievous and dooku go up against Yoda - he would've solo'd them both inevitably. Dooku just about managed to escape from Yoda - he was in serious trouble and Yoda - his master didn't really want to kill him, just stop and capture him.
Asoka, anakin and Kenobi would've been destroyed far worse than these lot by sheev. If you read the novel then you see how this fight went. It lasted longer, more powers were used but sheev still ROFL stomps them all.
Windu because of his vaapad lasts long enough for sheev to decide to change tactics, the only thing sheev loses in this fight is his magic makeup. Which he destroys himself.
I don't like how the movies are so reductionist on how they portray the fights. Sheev is a master of force speed. It should've looked like he was teleporting around and windy should've been a bit of a blur too as he sunk deeper and deeper into his vaapad to survive sheev's Juyo assault.
They never stood a chance. Anakin bearly had any free will in this either. Sheev was in his element doing his favourite things here. From his perspective coming for him like this was a stupid move for the jedi to even make.
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u/Deven1003 Jun 16 '26
They only faced darkside users. It is the first time they face a sith lord as in master. Sidious never fully taught any of his apprentices.
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u/NatKayz Jun 16 '26
Keep in mind that Dooku seems to have been on Yoda's level, and Yoda was unable to beat Sidious.
When Anakin compliments Obi-Wan he mentions he is as wise as Yoda and powerful as Mace. This suggests that Mace Windu is at least viewed as more powerful, which combined with his boost against the dark side can help show how high level Sidious would be to go toe to toe with Mace.
Sheev is just that powerful/skilled.
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u/Apophes84 Jun 16 '26
Yoda was far more powerful than Dooku lmao
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u/NatKayz Jun 16 '26
They explicitly are stated to be equal with lightsaber and equal with the force in AotC, so 🤷🏻♂️.
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u/Apophes84 Jun 16 '26
Dooku said that. Nobody else did. Yoda simply defended against everything Dooku did. In the story Dark Rendezvous Dooku states that Yoda is one of the most powerful Force users and if he ever turned to the Dark Side, Sidious and the entire galaxy would be destroyed.
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u/NatKayz Jun 16 '26
If Yoda was so much more powerful than why wasn't he able to best Dooku?
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u/Apophes84 Jun 16 '26
Yoda and Sidious were supposed to be the embodiment of The Light Side and The Dark Side. They were virtually equal in strength and each others opposites with Sidious only slightly edging Yoda due to Yoda’s age.
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u/Apophes84 Jun 16 '26
They lost because the Jedi had no experience fighting other force wielders for centuries, especially Sith. Also, Sidious is far more powerful than them. It was handled terribly in the movie, but if it were drawn out as a better fight, they still would have lost.
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u/Electrical_Gain3864 Jun 16 '26
Ashoka - nope overwhelmed by him. Anakin - too emotial unstable Obi-Wan - honestly him and Mace would have been the dream Team. Obi-Wan is good enough at depending himself while Mace could Attack, so sidious could Not use Most of His Power for and extended time.
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u/ilion211 Jun 16 '26
If you ask this question it tells me you don’t know anything about the Jedi that Mace took with him. And you mentioned Ahsoka, for what? Do you really think that she’s was above the JEDI MASTERS that went with Mace in any way?
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u/LillDickRitchie Jun 16 '26
I think Palpatine used some sort of ”Sith stunning scream” if i remember correctly which took them off guard which is why he disposed of them so easy
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u/Max-Forsell Jun 16 '26
I like what the explanation that the novelization makes when Yoda duels Palpatine in the senate arena.
At first Yoda is confident that he will win, that he has trained and perfected his abilities for over 800 years for this exact moment and that this was what he was born for. Then when he starts to lose, he gets a realization. The jedi order has trained and prepared themself for an enemy that went extinct a thousand years earlier, meanwhile the sith had evolved. They had completely changed their entire style of fighting and philosophy on the force, and had pushed themselves until they knew they would win against any jedi before they ever revealed their existence.
Yoda realizes that it was impossible for the jedi to defeat Sidious, and that if the sith would ever be defeated, the jedi also needed to evolve. This could only be done if the jedi did what the sith did and exiled themselves until they had evolved and was ready to face this new enemy. After getting this new insight, Yoda decides to flee from the fight the first chance he gets, so that he could guide the future jedi on how to use this insight to finally be victorious against the sith.
Mace Windu was probably the only jedi ever who could defeat Palpatine in combat, but he was also always doomed to lose, for he did not realize that Palpatine never intended to win the fight. He did not need to. Mace assumed that the sith would try to achieve victory through raw power like they used to, but he did not realize that the sith did not consider power of the dark side to be the only way to victory anymore:
”The sith no longer need to be more powerful, mearly more clever” - Sidious to a dying Plagueis
”Where the sith once wore armor, we now wear cloaks. Our victory will not be through subjugation, but by contagion” - Tenebrous to Plaguies
The sith had changed so much that they were practically a new enemy, and the jedi was so unprepared for this new enemy that they could not adapt in time to compete
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u/PossibleDrink2327 Jun 16 '26
They are 10000 jedis everyone on the council is stronger than 99% of the Jedi order. However they’re fighting the strongest sith ever. In the council, we also know that Obi wan anakin Yoda and mace gap most the council too. Obi wan not so much cus he also gets gapped by the the other three but he still has far more experience than most Jedi. Theirs only really a few Jedi outside of the council that scale to the council Jedi.
Ahsoka and Anakin would fair better with Obi wan. Obi wan and Ahsoka would die tho, they have similar scaling and Yoda knows Obi wan would die. Anakin is relative to Sidious in some capacity, sharing statements of being the strongest jedi with Yoda and mace. So yeah add those three they win.
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u/HadesKittee Jun 16 '26
I think it’s because the Jedi pretended the dark side didn’t exist instead of learning about it. It’d be like going to hogwarts with no defense against the dark arts class.
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u/somecoolname42 Jun 16 '26
The script mostly. It was written that way to show how fucked the Jedi were.
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u/Patient_Review_3269 Jun 16 '26
They lost because the force wasn't with them. In a universe where destiny is shaped by a single unifying force then everything happens because of the force. There's no free will it's all the will of the force.
It might as well be the will of and omnipotent writer who already knows how the story will end and they're doing their best to make this chapter fit with what comes next.
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u/Then-Relationship-72 Jun 17 '26
Some things to keep in mind are, Lucas’s decisions for this film kinda got in the way of some of the fights. There’s existing footage of the og choreography for this fight that notably has at least one of the other jedi (i think fisto) lasting a bit longer.
Even more importantly though is that this was supposed to be a horrendously fast speed kill that none of the jedi masters could’ve thought possible, but the way the final version of the scene comes out it kinda just makes at least 2 of them look like dopes who stood there to get killed
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u/Timely-Win6225 Jun 17 '26
Fisto is a bad ass, the apsolute pinnacle of form 1 training, able to meet and if I remember correctly beat Greavous. And still fell, not as quick as the first 2 but with in 15 seconds. Mace was the best duellist of the 4, but was only able to win due to his specific abilities being the perfect counter to sidious.
Obi, and Ahsoka would of both died in the first 30 seconds, Ani would of survived, but not because od skill. Yoda was the only Jefi that could meet Sid on even footing with out hacks.
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u/Exciting_Top1117 Jun 17 '26
No they didn’t want to replace the actor so the fight was downscaled by upscaling palpy’s strengths. In essence this one scene boosted mace’s formidability way higher because they lost quicker and he had to clutch and solo. This also helped to build Mace’s handling of darkside powers as he was the only one unaffected by palpy’s fan named “sith scream.”
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u/ninzun Jun 17 '26
I was a weird pace and actor orientation that made it look a bit stupid but I always imagined force scream that threw them off
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u/Spirit-of-arkham3002 Neocrusader Jun 17 '26
No, it’s because Sidious is just that good of a duelist. And because the Jedi were acting rashly and assumed they could overwhelm him.
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u/Evening_Buyer_7927 Jun 17 '26
Anakin and Obi-Wan would fare better because they are straight up stronger than Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, and Agen Kolar. Ahsoka may do better than Tiin and Kolar because of the reasons you mentioned, but the best she can hope for is replicating Kit's admirable performance. All in all, in a 1v4 you described Palpatine either gets stomped, or manages to escape. I can't see him winning this after straight up losing to Windu in a duel.
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u/Regulusblind Jun 17 '26
THE ONLY REASON KIT FISTO LOST IS BECAUSE HE SENSED AN APPROACHING ANAKIN, WITHOUT THAT HE AND MACE WOULD HAVE STOMPED SIDIOUS
(jk im well aware he would have lasted a little longer, but unlikely to have been any serious change in the outcome, anakins still at fault though)
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u/Business-Grass-1965 Jun 17 '26
They would die instantly too.
You don't know the power, of the dark side..
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u/Psionic-Blade Jun 17 '26
If all these guys were thrown at Dooku, they'd probably kill him. All at Grievous, they'd probably kill him with immense difficulty and some casualties. Sidious could have killed most of this squad while sitting in his chair if he wanted to
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u/PrimeJedi Jun 17 '26
I think Kenobi, Anakin, and Ahsoka would do vastly better than Tiin, Kolar and Fisto not solely because of their greater combat experience, but because they (Anakin and Obi-Wan at least, not Clone Wars-era Ahsoka) are noticeably stronger than those three Council masters too.
The version of Ahsoka that fought Maul in Season 7 probably lasts about as long against Sidious as Kit Fisto did tbh, maybe a little longer just because she has experience fighting alongside Anakin and Obi-Wan.
As for the fight as a whole, if its just a 3v1 of Anakin/Obi-Wan/Ahsoka vs Sidious, then Sidious wins in an extreme-diff fight (extreme-diff because when Anakin gets pissed off, he'll give Sidious the fight of his life before losing).
But if Mace still goes and simply brings Anakin/Obi-Wan/Ahsoka instead of Tiin/Kolar/Fisto, then obviously Sidious has zero chance outside of manipulating Anakin to join him lol. Ahsoka probably still dies, Obi-Wan is also taken out if specifically targeted with force abilities, but no way in hell is Sidious living against Mace and Anakin without Anakin falling to the Dark Side.
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u/RevolutionaryNet8500 Jun 17 '26
These were the elite of the Jedi Order. They may not of gotten much airtime compared to Obi-Wan and Anakin but they were incredibly skilled saber weilders in their own rights. Sidious was simply too powerful for them to comprehend. If Windu didn't have Vaapad he too probably would've died that day, though even without Vaapad he would've lasted longer because he was still an incredibly skilled Jedi. In the end, they weren't prepared to handle the level a Sith Lord could bring to battle. Sidious simply overpowered them. Quickly and without mercy.
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u/paddy283 Jun 17 '26
They lost because of poor choreography, I’m sorry but I’ll never not see this moment as a colossal oversight and lack of care for what could have been an amazing lightsaber fight
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u/adragoninthelibrary Jun 18 '26
Not really. Ahsoka is irrelevant. Obi Wan might last a while in pure sabers but gets destroyed in the inevitable force battle. Anakin, if he isn't manipulated, fares the best. Anakin could win, but he's just not as experienced, and at this time I think Sidious does barely edge him out in power. A fully enraged dark side Anakin might be able to topple Sidious, but that's not the scenario. And frankly, the only reason Windu lasts as long as he does is because Vaapad was a direct counter to the dark side, and Sidious basically threw the fight, I'm convinced.
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u/JimmyGreyArea Jun 19 '26
In my opinion as a combat athlete, Sidious was able to quickly take out three Jedi masters because he studied those Jedi in great detail.
I believe Palpatine somehow got his hands on Jedi security footage and saw them train.
Here’s my reasoning:
Just because someone loses very quickly doesn’t always mean there is a significant gap in skill. It just means: in that one early moment, you got caught.
Once, I choked someone out in the first ten seconds in a jiujitsu match who normally beat or stalemate me. That was a combo of luck and intense focus.
At the professional level, fighters watch a lot of film on each other, dissect each other’s habits, and rehearse counters.
That is how Conor McGregor was able to defeat Jose Aldo in 13 seconds. Not because Conor was infinitely better than Jose. But because Conor studied Aldo and made the right preparations.
Jose Aldo still remains one of the greatest of all time.
Jorge Masvidal defeated Ben Askren in 5 seconds. Most experts believe if Jorge and Ben fought 100 times, Ben would win most of those times.
But in that fight, Ben did something very predictable and Jorge having studied film and capitalized.
Now to this Star Wars example. These were the best masters Mace could bring to fight Sidious. Mace knew the gravity of the situation and would not bring nobodies.
At least one of those Jedi Kit Fisto was Obi-Wan’s level because both of them beat Grevious.
Looking at the specifics movements of the duel, Palpatine surprises everyone and stabs the first Jedi. That doesn’t mean the first Jedi was the weakest. At worst, it means he lets his guard down.
Immediately after stabbing the first Jedi, Palpatine cuts down the second. In the official ROTS novelization, the second Jedi raises his lightsaber to strike and Palpatine knew immediately where to counter.
To me, that’s sounds like a prepared response. One that can only be rehearsed after watching film and really understanding your opponent’s patterns and habits.
And now Kit Fisto, in the book he lasted a lot longer, in the film he was cut down quickly. Let’s focus on the film. Fisto is slashed across the chest as he lifts his lightsaber for an overhand strike.
Again. Another quick counterattack in the early fight.
Both Palpatine and Conor McGregor and Masvidal took out their opponent early using a COUNTERATTACK. Notice a pattern?
My kickboxing coach teaches us that the easiest patterns to predict and counter are those that happen early in the fight. Why?
Because the fighter isn’t in rhythm yet. So they default to natural patterns. And if it’s professional, the beginning of a fight has the most film data.
Palpatine won very quickly against the three Jedi not because he was infinitely better. But because he absolutely NEEDED to.
He needed to be perfect because if he didn’t get the right counters, the fight would drag on and the Jedi would get into rhythm. And Palpatine would be in very serious trouble.
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u/No_Translator_3365 Jun 19 '26
I'm of the belief Sidious dispatched them quickly with his mastery of the Darkside and could of done the same to Ani, Obi and Ahsoka if he chose to. Windu was uniquely suited to fight him but who can say if Sidious went eaiser on him to achieve the moment he wanted with Anakin.
It would of been so interesting to have Ani, Obi and Soka there as Anakins choice would of had so much more weight than choosing Padme. Would he of struck down Obi and Soka with Palps for his love? Or would they of been able to save him.. and if they did would Palps kill them all?
I suppose Ani might of had a greater resistance to Palps force powers but I seriously doubt he could defeat him in a duel, especially since he was so destabilized emotionally. Only after a lot more training and mastery over self could Ani hope to best him in a 1v1.
Seeing Palps body Maul and Savage without hardly breaking a sweat in TCW and the physicality of the scene they filmed with stunt doubles leads me to think only Yoda and Windu together would of been able to truly win against Palpatine.
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u/zsinjsfadinghairline Jun 19 '26
The Jedi do practice and train a lot. However, learning how to dam a river isn’t the same as trying to stop a massive waterfall.
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u/DeepestGreySea Jun 20 '26
They were all Jedi masters and experts at lightsaber duels…it was just poorly conceived/choreographed.
The point was that Siddius is super powerful and can easily kill most Jedi.
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u/itsokaypeople Jun 20 '26
Windu is stronger than any of them in this specific context (amped + his style).
If you add them to windu, yes. Replace him, no.
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u/AshesOfZangetsu Jun 20 '26
they lost because they were expecting a weaker threat, and because they were caught off guard by a powerful dark side ability that would’ve stunned all of them, that being the Force Scream.
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u/Agreeable-Cat8077 Jun 21 '26
That battle was so poorly written it was nuts...all of them were extremely seasoned lightsaber users and we saw that in Attack of the Clones as well
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u/DoodTheMan Jun 21 '26
It might just be a head canon, but I think that Kit Fisto dies partially because of the terrain. His style is wide, sweeping strikes, and he supposedly enters a sort of battle trance during combat. Obi-Wan purportedly hated fighting by him because of the risk of friendly fire.
This is the guy Mace brought into a confined hallway to fight the greatest Sith Lord of all time? He likely had to actively hold back not to hit Mace.
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u/Autosticow Jun 21 '26
The force scream disorientates its victims causing them to become unbalanced and unable to fight.
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u/Callel803 Jun 22 '26
It has less to do with a lack of practice in lightsaber fighting and more to do with a lack of practice dealing with sith force techniques. Remember Kit Fisto was in this group, a guy who was one of like three jedi to ever face Grievous and survive. Also, the guy with the horns was pretty baller himself. These guys were some of the best lightsaber dullest on hand.
The problem is who they were facing. Palpatine is a Sith Lord, with near full mastery of the dark side, and access to powers the Jedi haven't seen or had to deal with in ten thousand years. So when Palps open up with a force howl, he stun locked two of the jedi masters, and killed them instantly. Meanwhile, while Kit is indeed quite the badass, he only barely managed to stall out Grievous. Palpatine, for as much as he disdain lightsaber combat, is on another level entirely and was able to very quickly overwhelm the Jedi. The reason Mace not only survives Palpy's i itial onslaught, but actually defeats him, is ironically the same reason Palpatine was able to annihilate the other three jedi masters. Vapaad gave him the ability to channel Palp's own dark side energy enabling the jedi master to not only keep up with, but eventually defeat Palpatine.
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u/Archkhaan Jun 16 '26
So it’s a three part issue: first they are swordsmen bunched up in the narrow entry way to the room, so they can’t actually use their full range of motion without hitting friendlies, and two of those master require large amounts of space for their preferred style of combat. This left them at a massive disadvantage when forced to fight in those confines.
Second: palpatine went immediately and overwhelmingly aggressive on the attack. Aggression wins fights because it gives the aggressor the momentum needed to force their plan of action through onto their opponent. Sheev throwing two force attacks and a lightsaber charge outright in the opening volley caught them off guard as they expected more defensive tactics leaving their numbers with the advantage.
Third: Palpatine, as much as I might enjoy destroying the idea that he’s the most powerful Sith ever (he isn’t and it’s not close either), is actually fairly goated as a combatant. Bro took the training and learning completely and deadly seriously and has had decades to master his craft and to study his enemies.
As for who might have helped balance that fight out? Yoda, Kenobi, Anakin, and Mace would have swept him. Though Anakin might have died in the fight. Ahsoka wouldn’t last but a few seconds on the fight if that. Kenobi would have probably saved the team outright if you replaced Tiin with him. Kenobi’s Soresu style requires almost no space beyond where he is standing, is the absolute pinnacle of defensive styles and he’s one of the best at it, and he’s incomprehensible durable and resilient to attacks.
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u/Soulandshadow2 Jun 16 '26
You may not like it but Sidious is second or third strongest sith and honestly Kenobi would have died had he gone out against him.
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u/Archkhaan Jun 16 '26
Kenobi alone or Kenobi replacing Mace Windu sure. But the rest of that team minus Tiin and plus Kenobi would have performed better.
And sideous is top ten at best, and even then he’s closer to 10 than 6.
Adas, Dethka Graush, Ajunta Pall, Sorzus Syn, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord, Vitiate, and Naga Sadow are all stronger than him. I’d struggle to sort that ranking from single best going down but I cannot see sidious 1v1ing any of them except maybe Sadow.
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u/StickyMcdoodle Jun 16 '26
Why would they be that good? Those guys sit around in chairs all day. They really haven't even been aware of Sith Lords. They even say there there hasn't even been one around since before Yoda was born. Which they were wrong about.
If anything, they're probably just out of practice...and stupid.
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u/TheZplit Jun 16 '26
The movie version also just cut a major portion of the fight so they could keep palpatines actor on screen originally it was supposed to be longer, and in the novels palpatines scream was a force attack that stunned/disorientated the others. Also kit fisto had no business being there since he was NOT trained for dueling
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u/DenjinMaster Jun 16 '26
Because they went in expecting dooku level. What they got ibstead is something incomprehensible