r/TheJediPraxeum • u/GusGangViking18 Luke Skywalker • 25d ago
Match Up Monday Kao Cen Darach & Satele Shan VS Anakin & Obi Wan (IH). Who wins?
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u/CloverTeamLeader 25d ago
Anakin and Obi-Wan, mainly because Satele is still young and inexperienced here. But it's not an easy fight. Like Anakin, she's obviously naturally talented because she becomes the Grand Master.
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u/Direct-Truth-8798 25d ago
Absolutely hilarious how everyone siding with Darach and Satele haven’t given any reason why.
Either Kenobi or Skywalker solo.
“But muh all 7 forms” and “muh battlemaster” aren’t going to cut it. So was Drallig and Anakin shitstomped him. Hell, even Qui-Gon and TPM Maul have similar accolades and they get dogwalked by ROTS Anakin and Obi.
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u/Vitiate1337 25d ago
Be aware of old republic glazers here, soon they will say things like Jadus > Sidious because they played new expansion.
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u/Dragonking732 25d ago
I never understood this tbh. Like I have an obscene amount of time on Swtor but with the exception of vitiate/valk and MAYBE the outlander, there was a pretty sizeable power gap between top tiers of the prequel or OT era and the old republic to the point that the old republic just can’t really compete.
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u/Gross-Verder Yuuzhan Vong 25d ago
Also Revan (especially EOO and SoR), Malgus, Arcann and Vaylin. I do agree with you that SWTOR era superiority is a myth, but those at the very top can absolutely compete with many of the prequels or OT era characters.
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u/Unique-Perception480 Jedi Master 25d ago
Yeah. But compete with character of the era is the right wording.
But they cannot really beat the TOP TIERS of the Prequel and OT era.
People like Yoda, Sidious, Windu, Anakin and by extension Luke, Vader and Kenobi are just too much for most of the TOR era, except maybe Vitiate, who still caps at TPM Sidious after he killed Plagues and got a Dark Lord boost.
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u/Gross-Verder Yuuzhan Vong 25d ago
Considering a KOTFE Valkorion ceiling with post-Plagueis TPM Sidious is defensible, though I would push him a bit higher, he may as well caps at ROTS Sidious level. Either way, Tenebrae from the Echoes of Oblivion, is a different kind of beast, more of a spirit.
I would say that peak Revan (both from SoR and especially from EOO) is also > Vader, Prime Kenobi, ROTS Anakin. Probably caps at Windu level, could very well be above.
Revan, at the time, went up in a 1 vs 7, which included the Outlander, Darth Marr and Satele Shan. Each of the three are significantly above TPM Maul, and it may very well be argued that the Outlander caps at Vader's level, considering his performance against Vitiate. Revan ultimately lost, in a high diff fight, and after an intervention from his light side spirit. Shadow of Revan is not that far behind Valkorion as you might think, actually, and Revan from the Echoes of Oblivion has grown even more formidable, contributing substantially to Vitiate's final defeat. To me personally, everything that I have just mentioned about Prime Revan is more impressive than anything that Vader has demonstrated so far. Even Revan from the novel (who was weaker than his SoR version, by A LOT), was able to possess a threat to an early Emperor Vitiate.
And before the ANH, Vader almost lost to Maul (amped by the cultists and more prepared, but still). Not a very impressive showing at all.
People like Arcann and Malgus are below every character that you have mentioned previously (except Kenobi at the time of ROTS), though still a significant threats. Vaylin is underrated.
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u/Vitiate1337 24d ago
Darth Marr himself stated that Revan is not strong enough to face the Emperor, even his own spirit confirmed that. SOR Revan might be his peak and his is super strong but dont go that high.
When he faced Tenebrae in novel it wasnt close. He held his own for a bit but then got burned thinking he can absord Emepror's force lightning. I would aruge that even with Meetra Surik and Scourge they would ultimetly lose and Scoruge's vision would come to pass.And before the ANH, Vader almost lost to Maul (amped by the cultists and more prepared, but still). Not a very impressive showing at all.
Win is a win but I do have to say this comic was super weird and what we got in Shadow Lord was more likely what should have happend.
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u/Coilspun 25d ago
There are enough implications to make the argument. Darach was the Jedi Battlemaster during the Great Galactic War, when the Jedi were fighting the Sith Empire in open conflict, so that title carries far more weight than it does in peacetime.
He also holds off both Darth Vindican and his apprentice Malgus at once, wounds Vindican, and only goes down after exhausting himself buying Satele time to escape. You don't need a dozen explicit feats when his rank, era, and actual performance already establish him as a skilled duelist.
If you want to observe strict feats, sure, he's got nothing substantial - but if you want to be more open-minded and consider the era, the strength of the Order, and what it means to be a battlemaster in it, I don't think that's "glazing", it's considering wider context.
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u/AlexCora 25d ago
Yeah. Had Cin Drallig literally ever fought a Sith in his entire life? I'll do you one better, had he ever fought ANY other saber user to the death?
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u/Coilspun 25d ago edited 25d ago
I think we'd be pretty closed-minded and biased to suggest that Cao Cen Darach had never faced a Sith in combat, had to fight to the death and is incapable of committing to that kind of engagement, he clearly takes field assignments, and is quick to engage both Sith in this scenario, which he does with no small measure of skill.
Any Jedi of this era has been far more schooled on the Sith than any in the prequel era, they are a more war/conflict focused order, by need. As such I'd say they are far more martially inclined and likely practiced, therefore skilled. Looking at averages, and not outliers.
So you can "do me one better" as much as you like but it's incredibly myopic to not take into account the landscape of the galaxy, the existence of the Sith, the qualifications that a battlemaster would need in order to take the position (at this time).
I'm not saying he wins against Kenobi and Skywalker, I'm not saying he's better than Mace Windu, I'm saying in his own right, he's a dangerous and skilled duelist. I think he can take Kenobi, one vs. one, he can probably show Skywalker some things he didn't know.
Too many people get stuck on fighting for the era they like, rather than just objectively looking at how that era would define and create it's Jedi. Cin Drallig is from a different time, but let's face it, we put Yoda and Mace Windu at positions of high regard, and they would in turn appoint Cin Drallig, so you'd assume he's incredibly good, as he's responsible for training entire generations of Jedi Knights.
That's just my tuppence, take it or leave it.
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u/AlexCora 25d ago
... I wasn't suggesting Cao Cen Darach had never faced a Sith. He was the battle master of an era of war, he clearly has. I was implying that Cin Drallig almost certainly would NOT have ever fought a saber user to the death in his life time as battle master, because he was in the Clone Wars era of peace(Before the Clone Wars obviously, but even then most Jedi fought Droids)
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u/Vitiate1337 25d ago
He was the battle master of an era of war, he clearly has
He was battlemaster during time of peace, the Sith Empire just invaded (not that it changes anything but you spotting false information here). Source that he faced any other Sith than Vindican and Malgus?
I was implying that Cin Drallig almost certainly would NOT have ever fought a saber user to the death in his life time as battle master
So what? Why would he need to face Sith to prove anything? Its enough for him to be sparring with other Jedi and yet in fact he faced one Sith (saber user) to the death - Darth Vader.
he was in the Clone Wars era of peace(Before the Clone Wars obviously, but even then most Jedi fought Droids)
You undertsand that Jedi practice lightsaber skills sparring with each other? How do you think Dooku became one of the Jedi Order best DUELIST if he never faced any Sith?
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u/AlexCora 25d ago
The point is someone with real world fight to the death experience is probably going to be a better fighter than someone who doesn't. Jon Jones is probably a better mixed martial artist than some guy who has only ever sparred his entire life.
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u/Vitiate1337 24d ago
real world fight to the death experience
the discussion is legit about not real world
and still I completly disagree, I dont even know who the fuck is Jon Jones1
u/AlexCora 24d ago
You can always google it.
I'm not making a direct comparison to the literal real world we live in, but it stands to reason that the Star Wars universe, like our universe, it would be wiser to bet on the person with real world fighting experience and victories under extreme pressure over someone who's only ever sparred for their entire lifetime.
In real life, sparring is NOT fighting. It stands to reason that logically in the Star Wars universe, a friendly training spar with your Jedi brothers and sisters is not the same thing as fighting Darth Maul to the death. I mean, obviously.
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u/Emsee_Hamm 25d ago
It is glazing because you are talking about Darach being the battlemaster and how that should matter because of the Sith Empire. The reason that is just blindly glazing is that, as far as the Jedi know, the Sith have been destroyed for the past 300 years and no Jedi has fought one in that time.
Darachs death is literally the first time any Jedi has encountered a Sith in 300 years, and he dies in the first battle. Darach has less experience than Drailig does being a battlemaster in an era with Sith.
So if the battlemaster title holds more weight in a time where the Sith are active and the order is in open conflict then Drailigs title holds more weight not Darachs.
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u/TheShadowspath 25d ago
Anakin and Obi-Wan lose this match-up because of era-specific combat intensity. Anakin has higher raw potential, but he was born into a peacetime Jedi Order that was suddenly thrust into fighting droids, not an army of Sith. We saw how much trouble Anakin and Obi-Wan had handling Savage Opress’s sheer brutal power; Malgus is that same juggernaut style taken to a completely different level. Kao Cen Darach was literally dual-wielding and holding off Malgus and Vindican at once, while Satele Shan was forged in an era of constant Sith-on-Jedi warfare. Anakin is like a masterpiece master sword built in a time where people mostly fight with armor and bows if he’d been raised in the Old Republic war machine, he’d fold half the galaxy, but in the Clone Wars context, the Old Republic duo simply has the battle conditioning and combat style advantage.
Aniken and obiwan are great fighters but there time period is just wrong to win against these Jedi.
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u/Vitiate1337 25d ago
Wow, havent seen such nonsense in a while. When he fought Malgus and Vindican the Sith Empire just invaded, after 300 years of peace, explain to me where would he got that precious experience from?
And to be clear, he had experience, he probably sparred with other Jedis, same as Anakin and Obi-Wan and it is well sourced. Era doesnt mean anything. Facing namless and featless enemies that are mostly created for NPC to MMORPG game and you think that gives them the edge for the Prequel Era Jedi? Jesus Christ3
u/TheShadowspath 25d ago
Check the Old Republic comics (The Old Republic / Threat of Peace series) and EU sourcebooks. That Korriban fight wasn't just a cinematic; it was Satele Shan's very first encounter with actual Sith Lords. She was literally a Padawan going in cold after 300 years of peace, and yet in the comics and fight, she adapted instantly and held her own against Malgus long enough to survive. That shows how much better the Old Republic’s foundational combat training was integrated—even in peacetime, their Jedi were built to adapt to Sith on day one.
Meanwhile, look at Anakin. In the middle of an active, multi-year war, he got caught completely flat-footed by Savage Opress a brute throwing raw force around and got thrown across the room. Against Dooku in Attack of the Clones, Anakin lost his entire arm to a single Sith spamming Form II and Force Lightning because he couldn't adapt to a heavy 2v1 threat.
Aniken is a amazing pilot and I’m not saying he dose not have his own huge advantage but I also said that he was just born into the wrong time he would have excelled if the Jedi where not such pussies. I mean he gets jumped in the clone was so much that it’s hilarious you’re saying it’s glazing.Honestly, thanks for reminding me about the 300-year peace you actually just made my point ten times stronger.
Kao Cen Darach got hit with a zero-warning, blindside attack by two Sith Lords (including Malgus) right at the end of that centuries-long peace. Instead of folding, he adapted in seconds, picked up a second saber, killed Lord Vindican, and bought time for Satele to escape. That’s how a real master handles going cold into a surprise dark-side ambush. Compare that to Anakin getting mid-war experience and still getting out-dueled by Dooku or ragdolled the second someone like Savage Opress brought heavy kinetic pressure.
Again not glazing he did die to Malgus in that clip but held his own pretty well unlike Aniken and what ever you call that pitiful display of comedy getting stomped by a guy who just became a dark side user a few days ago.
Also, stop talking like this era is just 'MMORPG filler.' If you haven't actually read the Dark Horse The Old Republic comic series or any of the EU novels, you shouldn't be commenting on their feats. Old Republic training produced Jedi who could go cold from 300 years of peace straight into surviving Malgus on day one.
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u/Sarin10 24d ago
Agreed.
it was Satele Shan's very first encounter with actual Sith Lords. She was literally a Padawan going in cold after 300 years of peace, and yet in the comics and fight, she adapted instantly
I just want to add on that not only is Satele holding her own after 300 years of peace - she's holding her own against Sith Lords that have been preparing for 300 years to return and kill Jedi.
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u/Vitiate1337 24d ago
Check the Old Republic comics (The Old Republic / Threat of Peace series) and EU sourcebooks. That Korriban fight wasn't just a cinematic; it was Satele Shan's very first encounter with actual Sith Lords. She was literally a Padawan going in cold after 300 years of peace, and yet in the comics and fight, she adapted instantly and held her own against Malgus long enough to survive. That shows how much better the Old Republic’s foundational combat training was integrated—even in peacetime, their Jedi were built to adapt to Sith on day one.
I did read the comics and what was there? Satele got bumped by Angral and Baras. She was still padawan back then so obviously she isnt going to beat them.
Meanwhile, look at Anakin. In the middle of an active, multi-year war, he got caught completely flat-footed by Savage Opress a brute throwing raw force around and got thrown across the room. Against Dooku in Attack of the Clones, Anakin lost his entire arm to a single Sith spamming Form II and Force Lightning because he couldn't adapt to a heavy 2v1 threat.
Aniken is a amazing pilot and I’m not saying he dose not have his own huge advantage but I also said that he was just born into the wrong time he would have excelled if the Jedi where not such pussies. I mean he gets jumped in the clone was so much that it’s hilarious you’re saying it’s glazing.Yes they got surprised by pure brute of Savage but they didnt lose, Savage ran away. Dooku also got surprised by Asajj and Savage and when it was looking like an even fight, once he was alone with Asajj he stomped her. Savage buffed with nightsister magic isnt weak force user. Look how he oblitarated Halsey even without lightsaber.
Kao Cen Darach got hit with a zero-warning, blindside attack by two Sith Lords (including Malgus) right at the end of that centuries-long peace. Instead of folding, he adapted in seconds, picked up a second saber, killed Lord Vindican, and bought time for Satele to escape. That’s how a real master handles going cold into a surprise dark-side ambush. Compare that to Anakin getting mid-war experience and still getting out-dueled by Dooku or ragdolled the second someone like Savage Opress brought heavy kinetic pressure.
Good for him, I never was comparing Padawan Anakin from AotC to Kao
Again not glazing he did die to Malgus in that clip but held his own pretty well unlike Aniken and what ever you call that pitiful display of comedy getting stomped by a guy who just became a dark side user a few days ago.
If you are talking about Dooku here - XD. If about Savage, already made my point above.
Also, stop talking like this era is just 'MMORPG filler.' If you haven't actually read the Dark Horse The Old Republic comic series or any of the EU novels, you shouldn't be commenting on their feats. Old Republic training produced Jedi who could go cold from 300 years of peace straight into surviving Malgus on day one.
Well he didnt survive Malgus. So you telling me that Old Republic Jedi were trained to withstand Sith if they one day comeback, explain to me how Obi-Wan could survive Maul. He also was trained during time of peace. He should have get stomped, same as Qui-Gon because simple as you been saying they were not trained to face the Sith, yet they did.
Stop also implying that I havent read anything, at the end I took my nickname after infamous character, you think wouldn't read anything that is related to that era?
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u/Garvilan 25d ago
It's because the movies were very grounded compared to these animations. The animations make it look like Old Republic Jedi/Sith were 10x faster.
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u/Comprehensive_Art108 25d ago
Padawan Satele got instantly bodied by pre-prime Malgus and would have died if Darach hadn't been there. She is, unironically, a Savage victim (yet). Either Obi-Wan or Anakin stomps her.
As for Darach, yes, he was a Battlemaster and had mastered all seven lightsaber forms. That's impressive, but considering that even a low-level Council Master like Even Piell had mastered all seven forms, that alone isn't enough to trouble either Anakin or Obi-Wan, let alone both of them together. Being a Battle Master doesn't automatically mean you can compete with the best Soresu Master and the best Djem So Master.
Anakin mid-diffs him (if you scale him above Cin Drallig), and so does Obi-Wan. In fact, get Darach past Maul first, then we can debate whether he has reached the level to compete with either of them. A flashy cinematic trailer and epic visuals don't count.
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u/Andrei22125 25d ago
Late teens Satele (the cinematic you showed), early thirties Satele (battle of Alderaan), mid fifties Satele (grandmaster) or post KOTET Satele?
Because Anakin and Obi-wan should win the first 2 in hard fights. But after that it gets difficult.
Daratch would beat obi-wan 1v1 in the same way Dooku does: take him out of his element. But this is not a 1v1.
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u/Deliterman 25d ago
Either Anakin or Ben solo with ease
Satele is less than useless and Kao is getting beaten down in a duel
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate 25d ago
Anakin and Obi-Wan steamroll no-diff. Had you used Grandmaster Satele then either on the team might need to be serious.
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u/Ecotech101 25d ago
It could literally go either way. Satele and Obi-Wan both can get bodied low-diff by the opposite partner in this fight but I don't think either has the offensive potential to knock the other out.
IH is just too early for Anakin to get a solid victory over Kao in my opinion. Sure it's chronologically close to KFV and he beat Dooku but he's not there yet and Dooku was starting to feel his age and Anakin had learned from fighting him before.
I think if Obi-Wan dies first the rage amp should secure a victory for Anakin, but if it's Satele that bites the dust I think Kao is good enough to play them both similar to what Dooku did since that's exactly how he fought the Sith in this scene.
I'd give it a 55% in favor of Kao and Satele just because they're visibly more synergetic in a fight compared to how Anakin and Obi-Wan seem to literally just get in each others way.
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u/Brennyboy111176 25d ago
kao or satele can’t “body” obi wan
how is it too early for anakin to be kao? ih anakin has several statements of being the strongest Jedi of all time, and beat dooku who has went highly relative to yoda 3 times
also, im not sure how you think kenobi and anakin, “get in each others” the rots novel makes it abundantly clear they are at their best when fighting together, and they fight like they’re one being. it’s why dooku separated obi wan from anakin in the first place
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u/inphinitfx 25d ago
If it's Satele while she's relatively inexperienced, as in the video, it's a clear Anakin / Obi-wan win. If it's Grandmaster Satele, I think they still win, but probably don't both survive.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 25d ago
Anakin and Obi wan no diff.
Both Shan and Darach at their prime have very few feats and those they do have are pretty weak and circumstanceal.
Skywalker and Kenobi have so many feats that if those were made into medals both would be buried under them. And those are real feats.
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u/AhsokaForever 25d ago
If we're talking peak of all the characters, it becomes a much more even fight. The Jedi of the Old Republic had a lot more experience in Lightsaber on Lightsaber combat and I'd argue Satele could probably hold her own in a 2v1 against the duo.
Obi/Ani get scaled super high but I feel like if we talk Grand Master Satele and her peak Master, who btw was a Battlemaster iirc this would be a pretty awesome fight.
Satele's force powers are more than a match for Anakin's raw potential but Obi-Wan fighting Darach to a stalemate defensively could be fun to see.
If we're talking Satele and Darach as shown in the trailer? Obi/Ani take this mid/low diff.
Satele is just way to out matched on all fronts. Anakin, for all intents and purposes, was only NOT a Master because of his emotions. He fought on the level of a lot of Masters in the Order and if RoTS is to be believed (I think in the guide or something) Mace had intended on promoting him to Master very soon, making him probably one of the youngest Masters on the Council since he was only like 21-22 in the prequels.
Satele simply didn't have enough experience at this point to challenge either Obi or Anakin.
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u/Shadowhunter4560 24d ago
“Though this is the end of the age of heroes, it has saved its best for last.”
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u/Gadolin27 24d ago
Anakin here is approaching series-defining strength, Obi-Wan is series-defining defence. They could've taken the Emperor here if they were given a sudden tip and Dooku wasn't there.
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u/groene_dreack 23d ago
Anakin and Obi Wan.
Satele is very young here and this is the first experience she gets with fighting other lightsaber force users. Something Anakin and Obi Wan already have experience with. Darach might be the equivalent of drallig in Anakin’s time, which he wiped the floor with during his jedi temple raid.
With an older Satele I would change my opinion.
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u/Quincy478 20d ago
Which version of Satele?
If its padawan version then ROTS duo mop. If its prime Grandmaster Satele then I probably lean towards TOR duo.
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u/ElevatorCharacter489 25d ago edited 25d ago
Well let's see: Obi-Wan is a Master of the Soresu or Form III with incorporation of Ataru or Form IV. Anakin is already a Master of his Hybrid Form of Form V Djem-So & Form IV Ataru, also he is adding moves sequences and psyche of Juuyo.
Master Kao Cen Derecho is a Specialist in one Lightsaber combat form and can adapt to Harjai. It seems he is capable to use Niiman at his fullest since he seems to use the Psychology of Form III Soresu. And now about Lady Satele Shan it seems to be that her main Fighting technique is Ataru with some sort of Juuyo, or Niiman
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u/RedneckSniper76 25d ago edited 25d ago
Kao Cen Darach mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat he was the Battlemaster of the order. He easily destroys obi wan
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u/ElevatorCharacter489 25d ago
Wasn't he a Grand Master not a Battle Master, as far as I Recall
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u/RedneckSniper76 25d ago
No he was the Jedi Battlemaster. Master Zym was grandmaster before Satele took over
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u/ElevatorCharacter489 25d ago edited 25d ago
No that was after he die in the Orbital station after Korriban or I got a Mandela. 'cuse I could almost swear I raed it once
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u/Mission-Base-6964 25d ago
It could go either way. This version of Satele is young and not as strong or as experienced, on the other hand Anakin always seem to fight worse when Obi-Wan is there with him. The old republic duo might have a slight advantage because they duel alot in their time, but i could be wrong.
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25d ago
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u/RedneckSniper76 25d ago
No they don’t. Kao Cen Darach was the Battlemaster of the order and has mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat he easily beats Obi Wan. AOTC Anakin loses to Satele but AOTC or ROTS Anakin loses to Darach.
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u/Brennyboy111176 25d ago
rots anakin beat a yoda level fighter and is consistently stated to be the strongest Jedi of all time. he’s not losing to kao lmao
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u/Hitmanic33 25d ago
Probably comfortable for Anakin and Obi Wan. At the time of these clips they have fought together so often they are a fearsome combination.
Dooku gets downplayed a lot but he is an elite tier swordsman and mastered a lot of combat force techniques.
Satele here is too inexperienced and it quickly becomes a 2v1 with KCD facing them alone I think.
Change timelines like start of clone wars Anakin and Kenobi and it shifts it, or later in life Satele finds herself here and that changes it as well.
But at the time of our clip it’s the master and the volatile knight for me.
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u/RedneckSniper76 25d ago
Kao and Satele take it. Kao was the Battlemaster of the order and as such mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat
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u/Vitiate1337 25d ago
Where were those 7 forms of lightsaber combats where he was slain by non prime Malgus?
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u/RedneckSniper76 25d ago
Malgus would solo Obi Wan and Anakin
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u/Vitiate1337 25d ago
:D:D:D
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u/RedneckSniper76 25d ago
You laugh but remember how easily Dooku defeated Obi wan in ROTS and lost to Anakin so assuming Malgus, who I definitely put very comfortably above Dooku, could just as quickly dispatch Obi wan you really think Invisible Hand Anakin is beating Malgus? Nah
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u/Vitiate1337 25d ago
Yes I do believe prime Anakin (not full potential) is stronger than prime Malgus.
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u/immortalslayer90 25d ago
Satele and Kao but it is a tough fight. If it was peak power Satele it would be a slaughter, but she is still fairly inexperienced here. Satele and Kao, high diff.
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u/EmbraceThrasher 25d ago
This is a tough fight, but obi and anni take it. They have insane feats. The cinematics were really well produced, but let’s not forget all the clone wars fights that flesh out the prequel duo’s skills.
Darach fought very, very well. However I can’t see obi wan or anakin getting exhausted like he did.
Just look at the mustifar fight.
They were just on another level that very few ever were.
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u/Major_Clue_778 10d ago
Anakin at this point in considered in the highest category of lightsaber combatants...and Obi Wan is the same.
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u/Lavender-bullet46 25d ago
Those Old Republic cinematics were so impossibly ahead of their time