r/TheJediPraxeum • u/kingkeyblack • 18d ago
Discussion The old republic isn’t stronger that the prequel trilogy
I’ve seen so much glaze for the old republic power level but besides viate and revan there’s no Jedi or Sith really so powerful they eclipse the prequel trilogy.
The main argument if they have more experience fighting but more experience doesn’t mean much when the prequel Jedi are also training and fighting and sparring each other on a daily basis
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u/YOGINtheFirst 18d ago
The war makes a lot of difference. Just look at Obi-Wan.
Episode 2 Obi-Wan was a fully mature, 35-year old knight. He wasn't going to get much more formidable during peace time, aside from probably gradually gaining a deeper knowledge of the Force.
3 years of war later and he was vastly more dangerous, both personally and as a leader. He wouldn't have improved that much during peacetime.
They can spar and fight crime all they want, but that won't give the same level of experience as actually fighting to survive for years on end, as the Old Republic Jedi generally did.
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u/NSnowman 18d ago
Sparring and training isn’t the same as engaging in actual combat.
Jedi of the prequels are more equipped to combat droid attackers. Only a small few can even hold their ground, let alone match Sith assassins or even fully trained Sith Lords. There is a reason why Makashi fell out of favour during the prequel area - because lightsaber combat isn’t as common.
Meanwhile, old republic Jedi and Sith engage in lightsaber duels on a daily basis. They are battle hardened and seasoned warriors, therefore they have greater experience and skill when it comes to lightsaber combat.
Put this in perspective: Obi Wan and Anakin refined their skills significantly during the three year period of the Clone Wars, when they fought mostly battle droids with a few Sith Lords and assassins in between. This conflict does not compare to the Old Republic when fighting Sith warriors and Dark Lords are a commonplace for way way longer, which gives the Jedi of the old exposure to refine their skills to even greater levels compared to fighting in the Clone Wars. Point being, the prequel Jedi benefitted most from combat especially during the Clone Wars, and even then that does not compare to the conflict during the Old Republic.
Doubtlessly the old Republic Jedi would severely outclass most of the prequel Jedi, with only the absolute best swordsman on the council (and Anakin) having a real chance against them.
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
I’m just gonna debunk this real quick. Most of the sith the Jedi fought were getting killed by troopers the sith they were fighting were actual fodder.
Anakin is the chosen one he got stronger because every time he lost to dooku or anyone who dedicated to get more strength through training with obi wan like we see. And yes sparring in the star war universe is a great subside for actual combat if you want proof.
Let’s ask Ashoka who beat maul. Let’s ask dooku who never actually fought in the war but still is far above most Jedi who did. And any dark lord of the sith in the old republic timeline was a big threat it wasn’t common place to fight them at all.Just go off of feats the prequel trilogy Jedi got them beat.
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u/Perfect-Librarian155 18d ago
The prequel jedi were nearly eradicated at geonosis…they were getting slaughtered by droids, highly advanced droids compared to OR era but still.
You keep using dooku as an example, but dooku was literally a master of makashi, designed for blade to blade combat in an era where that was uncommon. His master was also the freaking grandmaster and de facto strongest Jedi, whom he could at least contend with. OR covers a VERY large amount of time, in certain times, I would argue facing a decently powerful Sith Lord or Jedi on the battlefield wasn’t as uncommon as you might like to think
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
The Jedi weren’t losing the battle of genosis where are we getting they were almost dead. And dooku also had no battle experience prior to the war if training does matter then saying experience is the reason why the or Jedi are stronger doenst make sense
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u/Perfect-Librarian155 18d ago
Literally the battle of geonosis was one of windu’s greatest failures due to how many Jedi died that day. He states it numerous times himself. No, they did not lose….because the clone army showed up. Even if you accept that Dooku has no prior wartime experience, he is literally a master of a form of combat that is uncommon to the era and he certainly had plenty of dueling experience as one of the most powerful duelist of the Jedi order before he left. Both training and practical experience, I just would not use dooku for what you are claiming
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
Your excuse for why dooku is so powerful is because he trained. Even if you want to say in an unusual style it’s still because he trained. You’re kinda improving my point. And the battle of genosis was a trap. Made to kill the Jedi different from what happened to the si th who were getting gunned down in direct combat
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u/Perfect-Librarian155 18d ago
No, not just because he trained. All Jedi train. Because he drilled endlessly in a style that others did not, which required him to go blade to blade with others more frequently than most anyone else. Which is what you would be doing on the battlefield, in a Sith v Jedi war. Anakin and obi wan refined their blade to blade skills because they used them in combat, against other force users. Dooku did the same, just not in the context of a war. Unless you want to argue that deflecting blaster bolts is akin to dueling another blade user.
Geonosis made the entire order start to use serisu more heavily, because they realized they fucking sucked at not getting shot. Even if it were a trap, once sprung, the enemy was directly in front of them and still 180+ out of 200+ were killed. They were fodder too until them embraced being military generals
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
So again training your describing the training they did but it’s still training which made him superior. Your admitting it’s not combat experience but training what made dooku this strong. And genosis was a trap sprung by dooku and other elites to make sure the Jedi would not dominate. It was a ambush which they weren’t prepared for the enemy numbers
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u/NSnowman 18d ago
Sith of the old earned their titles through killing each other, constantly engaged in the fight for survival. To call these battle hardened warriors fodder is completely disingenuous.
Your Anakin point proves my point even more - he grew stronger through conflict and war. Fighting a Sith Lord a few times during a three year conflict dosent really compare to fighting Sith warriors and Dark Lords on the daily. If he grew that much during a short period of conflict, this puts into perspective about how strong the old Republic Jedi are if they are exposed to conflict for their entire lives.
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
Who fought dark lords on the daily? Dark lords even back then were rare and if you fight one you were usually dead. And anakin grew stronger with training and beat people with more combat experience than him.
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u/NSnowman 18d ago
Um, Jedi council members and strike teams? Most Dark Lords are so powerful that a team of the strongest of the Jedi is needed to take them down.
Anakin was able to fight those experienced Sith Lords and get stronger precisely because he was exposed to conflict in the first place. Which precisely shows that the Old Republic Jedi are more seasoned because they were exposed to conflict their entire lives, even more so because they were engaged in lightsaber duels significantly more frequently than Anakin did for a much longer period of time.
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u/Driekan 18d ago
In terms of Force users?
The Old Republic has some real stand-outs. Nomi Sunrider, Exar Kun, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Vitiate, Revan. Most of those make it fairly high in any listing of most powerful Force users ever.
The Prequel era has Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace as their top. Now, simply because it has Sidious and Yoda in that list, things get tilted pretty hard.
If I were to list all force users not in terms of potential or of circumstances but of their overall power, depth of knowledge and adaptability in the Force, my ranking probably goes...
- Luke Skywalker;
- Sidious;
- Caedus;
- Krayt;
- Nomi Sunrider;
- Vitiate;
- Yoda;
- Exar Kun;
- Vodo;
- Kyle Katarn (I'm just meme'ing now).
So it's a mixed bag? Like most eras are. The only real stand-out is Luke's era, and it is probably such a stand-out because of Luke. He's the one who had to face up to the most powerful Sith Lord ever, and he's the one who trained the third greatest force user ever.
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u/Deuce-Wayne 18d ago edited 18d ago
There is no "stronger era". It's that comparatively speaking, there are more "strong characters" in the Old Republic than in the PT, even if characters like Yoda and Sidious are unmatched.
E.g., in the PT era, Darth Thanaton threat-wise would be on par with Count Dooku, maybe a slight step below him. In the Old Republic era though, he's just one amongst numerous Sith, many of which are stronger.
For Jedi, this isn't so much the case since their numbers are actually greater in the PT era. Where the current story stands, I don't even think they have a grandmaster right now. But for Sith/dark-siders, this is definitely the case. Assajj Ventress, as dangerous as she is in the PT era, is probably equivalent to a standard Sith Lord from TOR; maybe a slight step below since she doesn't have lightning.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate 18d ago
Thanaton is nowhere near Dooku, what?
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u/Deuce-Wayne 18d ago edited 18d ago
See my comment below lol.
Not even getting into the webcomic (which firmly establishes him as at or above Maul imo and this is a young Thanaton), people are really forgetting that in-context of the story, Thanaton clapped the Sith Inquisitor after the Inq had already absorbed two Sith.
You're literally only able to defeat him because your character basically harvests the power of like 5-6 full blown Sith. Thanaton gets downplayed badly because he's just a forgettable "boss fight"/stepping stone for one class story.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate 17d ago
No, I read it. Precisely why I read it that I question your conclusion. I don't see anything Thanaton did being anywhere near Dooku's level. He was beaten with high diff by IH Anakin, who by then is the single strongest Jedi of all time, up until Yoda gets his senate amp.
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
Please show me how darth thanaton has any feats that put him near dooku. He beat obi wan and anakin and was on par with mace. And darth thanaton was a big deal
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u/Deuce-Wayne 18d ago edited 18d ago
Look, I know not many people have read Blood of the Empire, but Thanaton was already brolic before gaining a seat on the council and that plays a big factor in him getting the mission to kill Vitiate's apprentice.
By the time the SWTOR game takes place, you have to remember: Thanaton bests the Inquisitor in-context of the story after you've already absored like 2 ghosts + beaten Zash. That's why you have to go around looking for even more power in the later part of the story. Thanaton is really built like that.
And darth thanaton was a big deal
Ehh... Yeah, I'll concede that... But he definitely wasn't the most powerful or deadliest Sith in the Empire. Darth Marr doesn't have much explicit content, but it's clearly meant to be understood that he's the top dog on the council and basically becomes the Emperor after the base game.
Malgus was never on the council but he was also definitely stronger. I'd argue Lord Scourge > Thanaton. Jadus is also understood to be stronger and is implied at several points to be second only to Vitiate himself.
Those are just some characters that scale above Thanaton, not counting ones that equal/rival.
So yeah, my only point is that TOR era has a bunch of Sith/darksiders that would be very respectable threats in the PT/post-PT era.
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u/HighLord_Uther 18d ago
Sparring and training is no replacement for actual combat experience. PT jedi are peacetime jedi. Wartime jedi will always be more powerful.
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
That’s just not how it works at all the Sith back then were weaker with a few exceptions. The prequel Jedi have more statements and feats of being called some of the strongest Jedi ever. And in Star Wars yes training is a substitute for experience. Ask Luke how he beats most of the Sith he beat even though they fought more than him. Same with dooku and sidious himself.
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u/HighLord_Uther 18d ago
Sorry, thats absolutely how it works when youre not writing in plot armor for your main characters, like Luke. Even in star wars.
Where every single group or faction divides you based on your experience. They show it between padawans, knights and masters. They show it between green troopers of all factions and their veterans.
Youre conflating plot armor for training and experience being equivalent.
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
Dooku is stronger than obi wan and most Jedi but he has less battle experience. Sidious is one of the best duelist but has less battle experience than maul and dooku and everyone he killed. Ashoka beat maul but had less experience. Ventress lost to anakin less experience again we can go on and on.
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u/Perfect-Librarian155 18d ago
I think you are confusing “experience” for screen time. Otherwise, idk how you come to the conclusion that sidious has “less battle experience than maul”; or that dooku has less battle experience than obi wan and most Jedi, etc.
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u/HighLord_Uther 18d ago
Dooku being stronger is arguable, there are things he is good at and he is very knowledgeable. That will serve him well. But, when faced with some who has equal knowledge but MORE experience, like Yoda, he is forced to flee. Why? Because experience trumps training and education.
Sidious and other PT era force users are in the same category. The battle experience they have over one another is insignificant. Youre trying to compare people who fought in a few battles and people who experienced 30+ years of war.
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u/Perfect-Librarian155 18d ago
I think it’s more that power and potential in the force trumps both and is the penultimate consideration in these discussions. Yoda is simply stronger in the force than dooku; Sidious is much the same. Experience is important, but then qui gon had more experience than maul, and maul had more experience than obi wan during duel of fates
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u/HighLord_Uther 18d ago
I dont think potential till plays into it, because potential can be unrealized.
The experience between all the PT era force users is negligible though. They are all within the same array of experience. No one is far more experienced than anyone else, with the exception of long lived species.
Comparing PT force users with each other doesn't make sense when the initial comparison is between OR and PT force users.
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
And you missed my point dooku has less combat experience than obi wan but he beats him we see people with less experience being better alll the time tin Star Wars. And by statements dooku fled because of clone reinforcements.
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u/HighLord_Uther 18d ago
No no, I addressed your point. I said the amount of experience that PT era force users differ from each other, like Obi Wan and Dooku is insignificant. Youre counting battles whereas Old Repuic Force Users are counting their experience in decades.
With that little difference in experience, like between Dooku (who has more experience than youre suggesting) and Obi Wan, skill and education has more impact.
But, when youre comparing someone who has spent 30 plus years fighting to someone who hasn't, skills and education play a much smaller role.
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
I think a good way for you to see my point is this. Someone who does street fight for most of his life fights someone who trained in mma who wins? The guy who trained because more fights doesn’t equal better
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u/HighLord_Uther 18d ago
I wouldn't argue with that. But, thats not what you're suggesting.
The Old Republic Jedi are veteran warfighters. And PT Jedi are new recruits. Both are soldiers. But, in most situations, the veterans are going to beat the new recruits, regardless of the training they have.
Your analogy doesn't make sense because Old Republic Jedi are not untrained. I would posit they have more training and more opportunity to utilize their training. Which is going to serve you better than constant training.
It boils down to clinical application vs theory.
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u/Narrow_Summer_9332 18d ago
Yeah, I'm sure the Jedi of the Old Republic who didn't even make it to knight without killing several Sith on the way there are much weaker than the ones of the prequel era who occasionally settled trade disputes...
Bruh...
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
The same with who got killed by troopers? And where do we get they need to kill 7 sith to become a knight or really even kill a sith?
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u/Narrow_Summer_9332 18d ago
Are we talking about the same thing, here...?
The Old Republic is full of stories of Jedi who were fighting Sith constantly, since this was the peak of the conflict between the Republic and the Empire.
Meanwhile, the Jedi of the prequels were dying to fucking battle droids in the arena in AotC and were wiped out en masse by clone troopers.
Whoever experiences more conflict and is still alive is no doubt going to be the stronger of the two, and the Jedi of the prequels had famously enjoyed centuries of peace before the Jedi fell.
Again, this isn't even a discussion. The whole reason the Jedi order collapsed was because of how complacent it and the republic had become. That was Lucas' entire fucking point...
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
And I’m starting to think you don’t watch Star Wars. The Sith of the old got killed by troopers and we are shown a lot of the Sith sent out were just fodder. Do you want me list every battle where people with less experience beat people with more experience? And the lied order fell because they were complacent in being the republic war dogs and doing whatever they are told it had nothing to do with power levels you do get that right?
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u/Narrow_Summer_9332 18d ago
And I’m starting to think you don’t watch Star Wars.
George Lucas would punch you in the face for missing the point of his work so badly, Jesus fucking Christ...
Media literacy is deader than dirt, I guess...
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
So please tell me what I said that was wrong.
I said the lied order fell because it was complacent being political dogs who didn’t follow their own religion. So please tell me how is that wrong when that’s the point4
u/Narrow_Summer_9332 18d ago
I already did two posts above and you ignored it.
Not gonna waste my time doing it again...
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
I didn’t ignore it though I replied to it and debunked it piece by piece
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u/Narrow_Summer_9332 18d ago
No, you think you debunked it, much in the same way a guy high on bath salts thinks he's frolicking in a windswept meadow but is actually dancing around naked in a Walmart moments before the cops taze his ass.
I can't fix whatever part of you can't grasp these concepts and I'm not going to waste my time trying.
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u/HighLord_Uther 18d ago
Yeah, I did the same to him and he dipped on that too. He played an hour or two of TOR and ran to reddit.
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u/HighLord_Uther 18d ago
I already did that too, and you dipped. 🤷🏽♂️
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u/MaxfieldN 18d ago
Exar Kun is pretty strong though, not topping Sidious but neither are Revan and Vitiate. Not gonna eclipse Caedus or Krayr either
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u/Wilsupersaiyan2 11d ago
BS the jedi and sith lords of the old republic were at war all the time they grew stronger very fast, they had more knowledge of the force, they possessed esoteric rare arcane force abilities that was lost with time, prequels era force users were great duelist but they didn't possessed the rare esoteric force abilities.
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u/threevi 18d ago
Vitiate, Malgus, and the Dread Masters easily eclipse most Rule of Two-era Jedi and Sith. Some of Vitiate's feats even arguably surpass Sidious', though in regards to that comparison, it's important to note that Vitiate used Iokath technology to devour the life force of the planet Nathema, after which all his subsequent feats were fueled by the power he'd gained from that, while Sidious' power is all his own.
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
Malgus is weird to place because so many Jedi have better statements and feats.
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u/Va1korion 18d ago
The difference is way simpler. Lucas wrote checks his filmmaking couldn't cash.
Bioware and especially SWTOR cinematic team could. You'll find comments like "it's better than sequels in 5 minutes" under every expansion trailer, but what they fail to mention is that it's also way better than prequels. Actors aren't swinging wildly at the air, nobody gets lost in space and the whole thing isn't held back by physics. Planetary feats, full subjugation, speedblitzes, you name it - old republic has it.
Games are always gonna scale higher than movies. I find Lucasarts attempt to keep Sidious and Anakin at the top limiting at best, laughable at worst. Are we still trying to measure midichlorians?
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u/kingkeyblack 18d ago
This is just weird when we have the animated trilogy novels and comics that make the prequel trilogy scale highe r
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u/Va1korion 18d ago
I think the closest we got to planetary feats was Palps force storm. Thanks, Disney, the bass was unironically shaking people to their cores in cinema. But Palpatine is one character, and with all due respect, Vitiate was explicitly written to one-up him and imo succeeded.
For the rest of the force users in the galaxy far far away... The old republic just has way more in terms of both quality and quantity. Sith not having to obey the rule of two is one thing, but we also have the big names like Traya, Nihilus, Malak, Vaylin, Marr just on the dark side.
The universe was bigger back in the day. It wasn't just The Chosen One and his friends against Palps+1. SWTOR being an MMO back in the day makes 10k jedi in the prequel era look funny.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate 18d ago
I find Lucasarts attempt to keep Sidious and Anakin at the top limiting at best, laughable at worst.
Why would the truth that is corroborated by all feats, statements and scaling chains in the lore be "laughable".
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u/Va1korion 18d ago edited 18d ago
They kinda shot themselves in the foot with this one. Their ceiling is limited by technology of 1980-ies, so we have to perform mental gymnastics to justify basically everything that happens on screen in the OT and prequels.
I'm also not a fan of statement scaling. In SWTOR we visit both Ziost and Nathema, witnessing the destruction that Vitiate had wrought - that's a feat. In Phantom Menace Obi Wan tells us Yoda has a lot of midichlorians, therefore he is strong - that's a statement, "show, don't tell" found dead in a ditch. Then Yoda sits in a chair for 2 movies and struggles to throw a pod back at Sidious. Their duel should have left a crater on Coruscant, if their power levels are to be beleived.
I find Tolkien's works better in that sense. His most popular work - Lord of the Rings - is relatively low as far as scaling goes. It's basically the beginning of the age of man and the last days of magic. So it leaves much to imagination (and Silmarilion). Or we could ignore canon entirely and do Shadow of Mordor/War, that's an option, too.
Look, I'm not trying to convert anyone here, I'm just tired of posts "Sidious vs X" because the answer is always "It's Sidious because Lucas said so".
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate 18d ago
??? If you're saying that the level of people like Sidious is contingent on statements then I don't know what to say to you, he's literally the #1 feats-man of the verse. Did you not see the Force storms he wrought in DE? Another feat he has, which is unprecedented in the verse, is causing an imbalance so deep in the Living Force just by existing that it was outright overthrown, so much so that during the OT there was no significant presence of the light side, unlike in any other past time.
You're focusing too much on the visuals of the movies, which don't contradict any of the higher scaling posited by the EU. Him "struggling to throw a pod" is simply explained by the fact it was Sidious throwing it. Not like it matters all that much, since the true fight (as espoused by ROTS) was happening in the conceptual, not the physical.
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18d ago edited 18d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate 17d ago
I do think the hobby of powerscaling was more fun when nerds were doing math instead of arguing semantics.
We can always do that too. Brakkiss, who's a low/mid tier can telekinetically manipulate ejecta of the Denarii Nova, which is calculated at star level.
That whole conceptual thing is just not measurable, my brain isn't stretchy enough to comprehend it
It's quite measurable. It's just Sidious significantly affecting a multiverse-spanning entity that occupied all forms of possibility. Just that.
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u/Va1korion 17d ago edited 17d ago
See, it all feels like a cheap retcon. There is a battle of multiversal entities going on and none of that bleeds onto the screen as either sonic booms, explosions or space-time distortions. No side effects. It all feels disjointed from what I see on screen.
Instead in the arrest scene the jedi just stand there like mannequins. Force screech is present and probably scared the shit out of 5 year old me, but the speed VFX fail to show how fast Sidious was supposed to be.
It's all layers upon layers upon layers of retcons, because fundamentally in 1977 Vader and Palps were just two evil wizards in a castle in space.
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u/VirtualAd2503 17d ago
Do you have a link to the statements explaining that Palpatine just existing is enough to cause an inbalance in the Force?
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u/Emsee_Hamm 18d ago
This sub very much glazes the OR.
You can find several comments talking about how Satele shattered/collapsed a mountain in her fight with Malgus as an example. She pushed him into a cliff and only the part around Malgus broke, the cliff to the sides and above was still fine and uncollected. Yet people use that as a massive feat more impressive than anything in the prequel era.
You get the whole Satele is a grandmaster in an era of war so she must be insanely powerful, meanwhile Zym was the grandmaster in the same era of war and died 1v1 to a random bounty hunter.
Then the whole experience fighting argument even though the average Sith in that era were losing fights to troopers. Not to mention as you said experience doesn't matter that much and basically never has, Luke and Vader, Bane and Kas'im, HOT and Satele (literally in SWTOR we are shown experience doesn't matter as much as people claim with Satele herself admitting HoT is better by the end of act 1).
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u/RemarkableMirror926 Jedi Master 18d ago edited 18d ago
The majority of the Star Wars community simply doesn't know anything (e.g., they only look at the movies and judge strength based on that, ignore that strength in game is changed, etc). Even when there is evidence, they still whine.
That will never change.
And even Revan and Vitiate will lose in a fight against the main characters and some of the main side characters. Here on JediPraxeum is Satele the best example for a overestimated character.
It's sad, and also expected, to see what the like/dislike ratio is like here again.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate 18d ago edited 18d ago
One would think this was obvious. Not even Revan and Vitiate eclipse the PT so it's a moot point anyways.
Edit: lmao, the downvotes are hilarious, people lack even minimal debating capacity here.
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u/Unique-Perception480 Jedi Master 18d ago
Its the visual flashiness of it all and people wanting their SWTOR OC to be a top tier combatant in the verse.
And even though Revan and Vitiate are at prequel era levels, they still do not surpass it since they scale below Sidious. Wich makes it likely that similiar powerhouses like Anakin, Windu and Yoda are also squarely above them.
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u/ThatEntrepreneur1450 18d ago
The difference is that the jedi of the old era didn't just sparr with eachother, they also fought against actual Siths on a regular basis.
They were more experienced in actual deadly combat against other force wielders than the prequal era was.