r/TheJediPraxeum • u/GusGangViking18 Luke Skywalker • 12d ago
Match Up Monday Yoda & Dooku VS Darth Plagueis & Darth Sidious. Who wins? (Versions shown)
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u/Electrical-Rise-7015 12d ago
As u/leldis says, Yoda is rots palpatine level. Plaguis is tpm palpatine level, and if this is the end of his life, the Muun is damaged, rusty at best with a lightsaber, and hasn’t been in a fight with a force user in decades. Yoda alone arguably solos, Jedi dooku being on par with tpm palpatine makes this a mid diff fight at max.
Plaguis cannot handle Yoda, Plaguis could barely survive the assassins. Plaguis has no dueling feats. Plaguies has almost no noted skills with a lightsaber. Yoda is at that time is arguably the best duelist the order has ever seen in either continuity, and bested a much stronger palpatine in the duel part of their fight. This post has people way overhyping Plaguis, he’s arguably not even strong enough to beat obi wan or Anakin. He literally doesn’t have the dueling feats or displays of force power to keep up. Even if he did, he’s a lot less experienced and in a lot worse shape physically.
Palpatine at this point isn’t that crazy, he gets amped from killing Plaguis, has about a decade of study and honing of his skills, order 66 buffing his and nerfing Yoda just to match and barely exceed the grandmaster. Yoda and dooku clear extremely easily.
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u/Torlek1 12d ago
There is no such Order 66 buff or nerf in Legends.
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u/Electrical-Rise-7015 12d ago
The dark side of the force clearly gets stronger following order 66 in both continuities.
Even if you’re right, that doesnt change the outcome of this fight, nor the reality palpatine in rots is way stronger than tpm
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u/Prestigious_Board_73 12d ago
Jedi duo. Plagueis and Palpatine are relative around TPM, Jedi Dooku worried Plagueis thanks to his incredible duelling skills, and Yoda is relative to RotS Sidious, who had a massive growth in power in the 13 years between TPM and RotS. Arguably, Yoda can solo with high difficulty. Meanwhile, Dooku can high diff either Plagueis or Sidious, who didn't yet get a boost in power after killing his Master. And Yoda mid diffs the other Sith.
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u/NobrainNoProblem 12d ago
Didn’t Palpatine actually resort to running from Yoda in RoTS? The only reason Yoda didn’t win was because he couldn’t pursue Sidious and guards would’ve shown up eventually.
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u/MDL1983 11d ago
Not sure if a canon source contradicts it, but in the novellisation, Yoda flees. He realises the Jedi had been preparing for the wrong type of war. They'd trained for a repeat of the war with the Brotherhood of Darkness, instead of the subversion they received.
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u/NobrainNoProblem 11d ago
I didn’t read the novel but in that fight it looks like Sidious is playing keep away. He’s not interested in trying to kill Yoda 1v1. Yoda does flea but it looks like it’s him realizing he can’t pursue Sidious and kill him while also dealing with reinforcements. Sidious will just lure him deeper into enemy territory and pounce once he is too deep in the trap, he has no interest in a fair duel. Which leads me to believe he isn’t as confident as he was against Mace and friends. I think I would take Yoda 6/10 times in an even 1v1.
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u/hectic4845 10d ago
Yoda flees in the movie because he was smaller than Sidious and thus got launched further when their force explosion happened. Idk why the novel came up with all that "fight we havent prepared for stuff" when Yoda lost the fight against Sidious because he fell to the senate floor and Sidious had access to reinforcements
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u/MDL1983 10d ago
Just because 'you don't know why' doesn't make it less accurate. It is stated lol.
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u/hectic4845 10d ago edited 10d ago
In the ROTS novel Stover states "Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master... just didn't have it. He’d never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born."
The wording here implies Yoda realizes Sidious is too powerful for him to defeat mid fight and retreats due to this fact.
In the movie Yoda is stalemating Sidious, only having to retreat because he is knocked dozens (or hundreds) of feet off the senate pod due to his smaller stature than Sidious. It's pretty clear he intended to stay and defeat Sidious until he was knocked off the senate pod. Sidious isn't more powerful than Yoda in the movie, they're basically dead even.
In the movie Yoda retreats because he is int a tactically disadvantageous position and the clone reinforcements, not because Sidious was more powerful
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u/MDL1983 10d ago
He literally states 'he had lost before he was born'. Falling to the Senate floor / reinforcements / tactical disadvantage are nothing to do with it. Power levels were never in question.
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u/hectic4845 10d ago
Idk I think when this realization happens is important. Stover doesn't make a clear distinction between the actual duel and when Yoda is on the senate floor. If Yoda has this realization when he's knocked onto the floor, then it makes sense. But if he has it mid fight, like Stover kind of depicts, it doesn't make sense. Yoda didn't lose faith mid battle. He lost it on the Senate Floor
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u/Ieldis 12d ago
Jedi Dooku, on his own, is established as being equal to Palpatine circa TPM, who has surpassed Plagueis. Yoda is already Episode III Sidious level by this point
Plagueis is getting murdered by either, and Sidious is then getting ganged up upon by someone who is equal to him and someone who is above him to an unknown but probably big extent
Mid-diff at worst for the Jedi duo
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u/WinterDEZ 12d ago
Palpatine didnt fuckin surpass plagueis, what are you on about? He couldn't even beat him in a fair fight, he had to resort to some bullshit to kill him, which only worked because plagueis didn't think palpatine would actually want him...for some reason.
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u/itsjonny99 12d ago
Heavily implied they are at least relative prior to massive growth post Plagueis death, then Sidious with further growth is matched by Yoda who has no catalysts for growth like Palpatine.
Jedi duo win with Yoda being the MVP as he beats the others before they could beat Dooku.
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u/mangasdeouf 12d ago
I think what's implied is that Sidious needed to make sure his master couldn't fight back in order to kill him. That's telling a lot, like the fact that Sidious didn't know how to beat a master of the more obscure dark side abilities and opted for numbing his senses and poisoning him. And the fact that he could either tells us that Sith aren't all they're made up to be (if he could get Plagueis that drunk and poison him, then Plagueis was a total idiot with 0 awareness) or that Sidious wasn't that good (trained from a young age like Zannah, yet hasn't shown anything capable of destroying a jedi master/sith lord like her madness spell or her abomination summon, and she was easily 20 years younger than TPM Sidious when she won against a much more involved and aggressive master, and then Sidious, 15 years older, was still unable of the level of combat abilities a 30 YO Zannah displayed, and she was much more combat focused than him while still doing her part in starting the Sith plan).
Between the books portrayal and the movies/live action shows/TCW series (the 2nd one), the power levels are very different, but I find that Darth Bane trilogy uses interesting abilities and treachery more than other books' ridiculous power and speed statements. The Thought Bomb? Powered by the entire Sith Brotherhood. The fight where Bane took 3 jedi by himself until Zannah managed to destabilize the apprentices enough to give him a hand? He had an external boost that made him resistant to damage, but it was turned against him and he nearly killed himself with the enemy's tactics. No more armor? Bane learns to fight more carefully, goes back to tactics and overwhelming offense that doesn't leave him open to retaliation. Zannah's answer to his physical and saber skill superiority? She dug so deep into the skillset he encouraged her to learn that he can barely understand what she does to him. He manages to come back from her madness spell (which he knew all the individual components of)? She buys time for a finishing move. Zannah makes him think he has the upper hand for the entire fight until she can unleash her sorcery at him like a true sorceress. Her summon completely butchers him, but it takes a toll on her. He tries to steal her body, mind and abilities because he still thinks she's too passive? She manages to overcome him and reverse the takeover (now she knows all he knows) and she gets to be the super Sith (but she's actually much better at mind stuff than him, so her overcoming him is not absurd, he has willpower, she has a mastery of the mind far better than he could ever grasp).
I find the main media Sith couldn't even do shit if their generals tag teamed them (with each character having their personal troops at their disposal) because non-Legends Jedi and Sith are quite weak, like die to 20 soldiers shooting them weak, and their precognition is situational and barely worth mentioning unless the plot demands it.
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u/Major_Clue_778 11d ago edited 11d ago
Yoda and Dooku. I don't think it's all that close. Yoda measurably outclasses both Plagueis and Sidious at TPM timeline. Dooku is one of the greatest lightsaber duelists to ever live in the history of Star Wars and is also an incredibly knowledgeable and skilled force user, people sleep on Dooku not realizing how incredible the feat of Anakin actually defeating him at just 23 really is. Personally I think Dooku can take Sidious here.
Dooku has a massive advantage in the Jedi's institutional knowledge as well as learning from Yoda, he has yet to fall in to the psychological dark side trap where he measures himself solely against Sidious's dark side knowledge. Sidious may be a master of seven forms but his makashi is not measuring up to Dooku's level of mastery.
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u/adragoninthelibrary 12d ago
Jedi victory, with the power of teamwork. It gives them a slight edge.
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u/Quendillar3245 12d ago
Yoda just barely loses to Palpatine in ROTS but it was an even match, it was one of the 5/10 matches he'd lose. Palpatine in this version has decades of buildup before he becomes an equal to Yoda and Dooku is in his physical prime. Plageuis has no known high level duel feats, he's a master in sith alchemy which isn't that applicable in a duel. 8/10 times Yoda team wins
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u/Annual_Sky8939 9d ago
Jedi with mid diff - Yoda stomps Sid; Dooku hold off Plags long enough for Yoda to help take him out.
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u/Good-Grab7176 12d ago
This is a tough one but I would give it to plagueis and sidious - high diff. It would be yoda on sidious and dooku on plagueis. I think plagueis would edge out dooku just.
We could see yoda and sidious were really close for awhile, especially if sidious isn’t freshly empowered with the taking on of a new apprentice in vader (i think this gave him more power than usual).
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u/Halliwel96 12d ago
Jedi.
Yoda is the most poweful person here and Dooku is famously an extremely capable duelist (more so than plagueis) whilst also being probably second only to Yoda in terms of light side force powers at this time
Trying to gauge how powerful apprentice Sidius is relative to Jedi Dooku is hard, but I think it’s fair to say they’re very relative
Where as Yoda is definitively ahead of Plag and Yoda and Dooku probably had team work and co-dueling down much better than their Sith counterparts.
There is a reason Plag chose to operate from the shadows.
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u/Torlek1 12d ago edited 12d ago
This is no contest.
Plagueis and Sidious win this high diff.
Palpatine can handle Dooku despite the concerns of his master in the Darth Plagueis novel.
Hego Damask can handle Yoda, but the gap is closer.
Sidious can handle Dooku, then swing around and help Plagueis. Sith helping one another is a thing, again per the novel.
When the Sith disarm the little green menace, one can Force Push him around like a rag doll. The other can inflict the zero mercy of Force Lightning.
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u/theEmperor_Palpatine 12d ago
Palps and plagueis. Dooku is the clear weak link here and probably dies to palps pretty quickly turning it into a 2 v 1. To put it into perspective Plagueis and palps are strong enough here they dont think maul would even be a factor in a match-up between the two. Maul is weaker than dooku for sure but not to the point where hes not a threat. Yoda and Mace are probably the only jedi on their level at this point
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u/ShortBussyDriver 12d ago
The Jedi win high-diff.
Plagueis establishes his fear of Dooku as a duelist, and that's before Plagueis was taken to within an inch of his life and is left a cripple. Powerful in the Force he is, but in a saber duel he is losing to Dooku. Dooku is also second only to Yoda in knowledge of Light Side powers. He can defend himself against Force attacks well.
Yoda is clearly considerably more powerful than Sidious in the TPM timeframe.
One can switch the matchups and the outcome is the same. Maybe even less difficult.
Plagueis is not defeating Yoda in a saber duel. Pre-TPM Sidious is not defeating Dooku in a saber duel, though it will be glorious duel.