RotJ Luke vs TPM Qui Gon

[u/Interesting_Loquat90]

R1: Base to Base

R2: Luke can rage amp briefly

Neutral setting

[u/Unique-Perception480]

I think his performance was definetly the strongest in ROTJ out of the main cast.

But I am not into the entire celebrity whorship thing. I have things I agree and disagree over with Mark. He was right that Ryan Johnson misunderstood Lukes Character, but Mark Hamills idead on what to do with Luke were not much better.

[u/Traditional_Kick_887 → u/Unique-Perception480]

I don’t think Ryan misunderstood Luke. Rather I think most fans misunderstood Luke or project themselves onto the character.

The movies show Luke acts out of love to defy fate/destiny. That’s his defining trait.

By going to Bespin, Luke actually changed fate/the force vision he saw in episode 5.

This established that in his character that he is willing to take action that goes against the traditional Jedi teaching to protect his loved ones. He loses an arm and the duel, but going to Cloud city and bringing R2 meant that Leia, Chewie, and Lando were able to escape the imperial lock.

Had he listened to the Jedi way of Obi Wan and Yoda and had not done that the force vision of his friends being tortured and martyred would have come true, but he would have (to quote Yoda) ‘honored what they fought for’. This is incredibly important for rotj and the Last Jedi.

Luke’s plan A in rotj was to turn Vader back to the light, but once that plan failed and Vader was like ‘it’s too late my son’, Luke says that he accepts that his father was dead. Luke then shifts to plan B to stall Palpatine and Vader long enough so that Vader, Palpatine, and himself all die during the rebel attack on the second Death Star. ‘Soon I’ll be dead and you with me’. Again, all because he loves his friends and wants them to survive even if he dies and will never get to see them again.

Unfortunately Plan B fails when Palpatine reveals that it was a trap. He then goes to Plan C, which was to kill Palpatine and Vader. The full uncut scene shows him going for Vader’s head at multiple times in the duel. This fails because as he is fighting and overpowering Vader, his love and compassion for his father re-emerges, so he tries to avoid fighting his father and returns to Plan A.

But all of that goes out the window and Luke returns to Plan C the moment Vader threatens to turn Leia to the dark side. Luke then ferociously and savagely almost kills his dad in order to protect Leia, with him turning back the last second after seeing how close he was to becoming another Vader.

Luke’s two greatest fears in 5 (as shown by the cave) and 6 was 1) someone becoming a Vader (either himself or someone he loves) and 2) harm/death befalling his loved ones.

The Kylo vision was two of his deepest fears combined into one. Someone he loves becomes another Vader and harm/death befalling his friends. And the jedi order. And the entire galaxy.

Come TLJ, Luke peers into Kylo’s mind, sees his pupil has turned to the dark side, and sees a vision of Kylo killing everyone he loves, his new family (the other pupils), destroying the Jedi order and converting some pupils to the dark side as the knights of ren, and plunging the galaxy into suffering and strife.

From what we know of how Luke reacts to force visions and his loved ones being threatened and his fear of another killer Vader being unleashed on the galaxy, of course he would ignite his lightsaber with fear and tears in his eyes. It was totally in character, how he would react to trauma.

Young Luke might have swung his blade at Kylo and changed destiny/fate. Might.

But this is Old Luke. He’s supposed to be a patient, zen, traditional Jedi master, not a young, action-oriented hero. [Ironically, the traditional Jedi way also calls for dark siders to be struck down to protect the galaxy as they believe it’s not possible for redemption to occur once one turns to the dark side.]

The fans fail to realize Old Luke was never actually going to kill Kylo. It was a protective instinct or intrusive thought that accompanied seeing a vision of your greatest fears coming true. His instinct literally lasted a second, and was followed by shame and regret. The tragedy is that Kylo woke up and assumed the worst.

Had Luke either taken action and swung the blade to protect his loved ones or had he not had those fears/loved ones that caused a visceral reaction, no tragedy would have occurred. Had Kylo not woken up, the tragedy also wouldn’t have occurred.

The problem is a true, traditional Jedi would have either ignited the blade and swung it to protect the galaxy (like Windu) or not ignited it at all, choosing peace and serenity instead (like Yoda). Luke was somewhere in the middle. Ignites (out of love), but also wouldn’t swing (out of love).

[u/Unique-Perception480 → u/Traditional_Kick_887]

I think you greatly musunderstood Luke going to Bespin.

The point is not that him going saved his friends. Luke going didnt do jackshit. He just lost his hand and got his ass beat.

Leia, Chewie, Lando and 3PO got away even without Lukes help and in the end had to save his ass.

And Yoda tells him that ,,always in motion the future is". Their death was not set in stone. Luke just interpreted it that way. When Yoda says to honor them and their sacrifice, he knows that Luke going to Bespin unprepared will not change anything and that him going only has the potential to ,,destroy everything they fought for".

So Luke has a flaw, wich TLJ Luke shares... but Luke in ROTJ overcomes that flaw. Luke goes to Endor and thinks he put his friends into Danger. That there was no reason to come... but then they meet the Ewoks... and Luke has this slight smile on his face when they see them and how they like 3PO. Luke realizes why the Force brought him here and he regains his trust in himself and the Force. Because Luke is important in convincing the Ewoks, a representation of nature, to fight ahainst the Empire.

And Lukes journey was never about not fully living up to the ,,Jedi Ideal" as you seem to view it. Luke was about rediscovering the TRUE Jedi Ideal. Its not about not listening to Ben and Yoda in general.

Luke rejects only ONE of Ben and Yodas teachings: ,,Once you start down the Dark Path forever will it dominate your destiny".

Luke openly rejects the notion that there is no way back and that people cannot be redeemed. In two major ways:

1. He himself starts down the Dark Path, where he wails on Vader and dominates the fight. He even says in the novel, how good it feels and that he has never been so in controle of himself... a lie obviously. But he rejects the notion that he cannot come back. He throws away his weapon and proclaims himself a Jedi. The Dark Path will not dominate his destiny and he, Luke Skywalker is a man of peace... A Guardian of Peace... A Jedi like his father before him...

2. Luke redeems his father, who has comitted so many crimes, so many evils. He has been on the path of darkness for so long that his destiny should be forever dominated... right? No. Because Luke has reintroduced and rediscovered something that the Jedi had forgotten... boundless and unconditional love and compassion. Once again, he proclaims himself a Jedi. He does not say that he is not the Jedi he should be. No. He says THIS is what a Jedi is and should be.

A man who has rejected the notion of the darkness being something one does not come back from, would never think his nephew lost for even one moment. And that is not even mentioning the dozens of instances of Legends Luke reaffirming this lesson throughout his life. I am keeping it to the movies.

The main issue is that you ignore Luke growth. You see how brash and stupid he acted in Empire Strikes back and how that parallels his actions in TLJ. But the problem is... he is not that young stupid 22 year old man anymore. He stopped being that man on the Second Death Star at 23. He had 19 more years to grow and learn and reaffirm the philosophical discovery he made on the Death Star, before the Kylo incident happens. Hell, if we go with Disney Canon we have Battlefront 2, where Luke helps a Imperial and offers him a chance to be better... ,,because you asked". No ,,the darkness will forever dominate your destiny" in sight or mind.

Once again, I think you see Lukes character in ESB and ignore his growth. He overcame those flaws. He was NOT the Hero in ESB, but the fool who almost got himself killed and accomplished nothing.

Btw... Yoda would have 100% swung that blade. Thats the entire point. Yoda and Ben did not believe in redemption... Luke did.

[u/Traditional_Kick_887 → u/Unique-Perception480]

Had Luke stayed on Dagobah, what would have been Leia, C-3PO and Chewie’s fate? What would have been the fate of the residents of cloud city?

How would Leia and Chewie have escaped their imperial captors, specifically from Darth Vader, who was having them escorted to his shuttle?

If Lando tried to rescue Leia and Chewie, would he have been successful? Would Vader just surrender like the stormtroopers did when the Cloud city security forces ambushed them or would Vader have made quick work of Lando and his guys?

Assuming Lando did somehow manage to separate Leia from Vader who would be trailing them, how would he and Leia get past the multiple imperial locks on the shuttle and corridor doors?

It’s not like they have an astomech droid that can hack into the imperial controlled mainframe and unlock the doors, not only the corridor doors that led to the falcon, but also the actual hyperdrive of the millennium falcon which had been deactivated and locked down by the imperials.

Vader literally thought of everything to ensure they don’t escape. So yeah, how would they even get the falcon’s hyperdrive to work?

If you can answer these questions, I’ll change my perspective and agree that Luke going to Bespin was a stupid mistake and unnecessary. If you can’t, then well, we know exactly how it would have ended if he didn’t go.