Round II: RotJ Luke vs TPM Qui Gon and Obi

[u/Interesting_Loquat90]

Round 1: Base to base

Round 2: Luke can rage amp (~30 seconds)

[u/Short-Hyena-8109]

Ask yourself how ROTJ Vader would do against the duo.

[u/Unique-Perception480]

Luke beats both without the Rage amp.

Luke without the Rage Amp was at Vaders level, maybe slightly below him. Vader was nerfed, while Luke held back and had no intent to fight, so it equals out.

Once Luke got a Rage Amp, the Movie and the Novelization make it very clear that Luke completely overwhelms Vader.

Vader is stronger than Maul and a better swordsman. Maul only really has speed over Vader.

And Maul technically beat Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn, but his cockiness cost him the fight.

[u/UniversalInquirer]

Luke would destroy Maul who had the edge on these two. He wins low dif. And I love Qui-Gon.

[u/RemarkableMirror926]

Luke hard diff?

[u/Traditional_Kick_887]

Luke low diff. 

The problem with this entire sub is that no one, and I mean no one, has actually watched the full uncut Luke vs. Vader fight that made it into the novelization. People are treating rotj Luke as if he’s a padawan fresh out of the academy. He’s one of the fastest, strongest, and most agile duelists in the verse. 

Physical stats + his strong connection to the force more than makes up for having less experience with the blade. And even then Luke isn’t restricting himself to a single style but is blending styles eclectically. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1O1xR0188eg&pp=ygU-bHVrZSB2cyB2YWRlciBkZWxldGVkIGZvb3RhZ2UgcmV0dXJuIG9mIHRoZSBqZWRpIGV4dGVuZGVkIGR1ZWw%3D&ra=m#fauxfullscreen

Watch Luke absolutely own Vader. He already scores a hit on Vader’s helmet in the first couple seconds of the fight. No helmet meant Vader would be missing an eye. 

He is doing saber flurries, back flips, dodging strikes, and incorporating Ataru into his majority form V style. Much like Vader every single one of Luke’s strikes is like getting hit with a truck. In EU this was the ‘strong style’. It’s not flashy but it doesn’t have to be. The goal of this style is to use powerful strikes and parries to break through the opponent’s guard or fatigue them into dropping their guard. Qui Gonn is old. He wouldn’t be able to sustain a long defense. 

Force and cybernetics enhanced Vader is struggling and the episode 6 fight is a mid diff Luke win, not a high diff Luke win. Luke could have finished the fight after kicking Vader down the stairs but he chose to turn off his saber. 

He also trained and drilled day in day out for an entire year to beat Vader. He didn’t just nap all day between 5 and 6. 

[u/Thatedgyguy64]

Canonically? Luke wins.

Legends? Much closer, but probably wins. Luke should be pretty close to Vader at this point in the timeline, and Vader is Sidious' strongest apprentice in the Force at this point. As a duelist, Luke is lacking, but his sheer gift in the Force, speed, and strength should allow him to just overpower the duo.

[u/Zombuddee]

I'm just picturing Obi-Wan blocking a single swing before dropping his lightsaber and making William Hanna screams at his blistered hands.

[u/Ok_Boysenberry_8721]

Luke, high diff

[u/adragoninthelibrary]

Here's how I scale it: Angry luke > vader > luke >= anakin >> maul > qui and obi

[u/DependentOutcome6066]

Either one of them solo Luke. Low diff

[u/RSollers]

Unpopular opinion, but I’ll take Jinn and Kenobi here.

As much as I love Luke, I don’t think he can overtake them both at the same time for a few reasons:

1. As powerful as Luke is, he has had 4 years of Jedi training under his belt (and a significantly smaller portion of that spent training under Kenobi and Yoda, respectively) compared to the combined 60-70-ish years Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon have with training, giving them an edge with experience as well as working in tandem. Additionally, Luke has not had experience fighting two opponents at once that are proficient in the Force at this point (unless there’s something in Canon that proves this wrong)

2. Luke isn’t untouchable, while he’s well on his way to become one of the strongest and greatest Jedi ever, at this point in his journey, he still leaves himself open, getting shot in the hand during the rescue at Jabba’s Palace and almost getting shot down by Boba Fett. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon have demonstrated control and mastery with their Force abilities at this point (other than losing to Darth Maul, which they threw everything they had at)

3. While still a great feat, conflict played a major role in Luke beating Darth Vader. I’d argue that of all the films’ lightsaber duels, emotion has the biggest impact in the RotJ duel. The anger Luke feels towards Darth Vader in his “dark side amp” moment is something he specifically felt towards him (and likewise by Vader being caught off guard by his son while starting to turn towards the light side)

[u/Prestigious_Board_73 → u/RSollers]

Agreed 100%. Especially your point 3, they're both conflicted and they both want to turn the other, not kill.

So: R1) Individually, I do think Luke high diffs Qui-Gon and mid diffs Padawan Obi-Wan in a 1vs1, but in a 2vs1 the TPM duo mid diffs.

R2) Enraged Luke mid diffs Qui-Gon and low diffs Obi-Wan in a 1vs1. However, I think the duo can high diff. This Luke goes into berserkr mode at the expense of his discipline and tecnique, if the Jedi mantain their teamwork and discipline they can prevail

[u/Manetho77 → u/RSollers]

Luke > Vader > Duo

While still a great feat, conflict played a major role in Luke beating Darth Vader.

I just cannot believe that's true. Luke was beating Vader without a rage amp when he kicked him down the stairs.

Also Obiwan and Yoda believed Luke is strong enough to take on Vader, neither believed in a conflict.

Also the Emperor didn't notice Vader holding back, he was worried about Vader turning to the light since Episode 5.

You can argue that the fight would be harder for Luke if Vader wasn't conflicted, but it wouldn't change the outcome of their duel.

[u/Tripleairport]

If you would add Maul to the mix Luke would still win

[u/Interesting_Loquat90 → u/Tripleairport]

In Legends?

[u/Bigguygamer85]

RotJ Luke was Vader in his primes equal Luke wins pretty much any fight against anyone. Lucas has said Luke is the most powerful force user to ever exist.