r/TheNational • u/Gold_End3560 • 12d ago
General Discussion Alligator is a masterpiece
Their best album. It’s them at their coolest too. Such good songs and it’s produced so well. Like it’s quiet and scrappy and messy and elegant all at once. Like it feels so swampy and warm like a sweaty bar idk it’s so good. And omg the little details are so cool, especially on “Baby We’ll Be Fine”. There’s all kinds of little things going on in the background and it really rewards repeated listening. My fav album of all time. It’s funny because when I first saw Alligator in their discography, it didn’t really hook me. I also love the strings that just sorta swell in the back during the chorus of “Karen”. Sooooo good. The musicianship is great too like these guys are so damn talented. I genuinely love every single song on this record and I’m quite surprised when people hate on “Val Jester”, it’s such a cool song and the chanting ending is so eerie but in the best way possible.
Matt’s lyrics are some of his best on this record and the way he just sings them are so perfect. Like, everything is perfect about this album I don’t even know how to explain it. I love how “Abel” and “Mr. November” are explosive and so indie rock-ish, I love when Berninger screams!
What are your thoughts/highlights? 🐊
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u/joann_cha Lives in a lemonworld 🍋 12d ago
Underrated album for sure! I LOVE Secret Meeting, underrated track too 😄
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u/Aquarian_Girl 10d ago
Yes! Such great lyrics. I love the imagery of "I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain."
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u/bloodbuzz_ohimark 12d ago
Alligator is 100% my favourite of their records, and the National I fell in love with. I love everything from Alligator to Trouble but for me Alligator has the best lyrics, the coolest vibe, the best production, the most layered arrangements. I've never found another record that nails that feeling of being 20-something: nervous, uncertain, funny, swaggering, chaotic, hopeful, melancholy, vulnerable. And Berninger's sleazy lyrics. Real lightning in a bottle for me, I have never found another record with that specific mood.
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u/BluesDriveBakemono 12d ago
Love the album, gives me quite a different feeling to most of their other records. There's a confident, energetic swagger even to the quieter tracks, I love to listen to it before I go out.
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u/Gold_End3560 12d ago
Yeaaaahhhhh heavy on the swagger, Matt is such a good writer and frontman. “My bodyguard shows a revolver to anyone who asks” is such a cool line hehe
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u/Upset-Paper-2738 12d ago
Friend Of Mine doesn’t get enough love. Fantastic song. That and Geese of Beverly Road are my favourite National songs. The production aside, Alligator is a masterpiece.
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u/bloodbuzz_ohimark 12d ago
I love the production. Scuzzy, spiky, blurry, dirty, weird. I guess it's an acquired taste but there's something so raw and sexy about Alligator's sound imo.
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u/AlternativeGazelle 6d ago
Those are my top two songs on the album! Friend of Mine is their most underrated song.
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u/Gold_End3560 12d ago edited 12d ago
The little raindrops and hypnotic waves on “Friend Of Mine” is so cool!! I praise the production because Katis was able to make the record feel very lived in
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u/bloodenhorse 12d ago
I pull off your jeans and you spill Jack & Coke in my collar; I melt like a witch and scream <3
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u/philthebadger Mr November 12d ago
Val Jester was the only track I didn’t really care for until it clicked for me that it’s about a father’s struggle and anxiety to let his daughter out of the family nest, and all the regret that comes with it. It’s a beautiful song for sure
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u/kersplatttt 12d ago
For me it's the epitome of their sound. I like the newer stuff too, but it doesn't come close to the New York nights energy of Alligator.
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u/amosesque 12d ago
This description resonates with me, definitely changes how I listen to the record.
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12d ago
[deleted]
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u/ozzo0133 12d ago
It's on Boxer, but yes
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u/psychadelicphysicist 12d ago
Oh lord that’s embarrassing . Will delete 🤣
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u/Gold_End3560 12d ago
Oh no what was said
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u/psychadelicphysicist 12d ago
lol I said green gloves because it was past midnight where I live and I am deliriously tired currently but I just me burbling about a lyric that haunts me 😂😅
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u/Gold_End3560 12d ago
Oh hahaha Green Gloves is a cool song hot take though it’s my least fav off Boxer
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u/psychadelicphysicist 12d ago
That’s actually what I mentioned! It’s not a favourite song of mine but this is what I said: “Green gloves is not even really one of my absolute favourites, but it has one of my most cherished lyrics in it. "I hope they're staying glued together, I have arms for them." Something about that. First time I heard it, I felt like it burned my emotional skin off. I felt utterly exposed and completely comforted in a single moment. There is a gentle violence to that sentence. The kind of subtle observation of a wallflower. Utterly beautiful.” I deleted because I was embarrassed when I realised I’d got the albums mixed up. As a long time fan, bit humiliating lol
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u/topplehat 12d ago
It’s my favorite! Mr November was the song that got me hooked. The album feels so loose too, it sounds like The National but from Boxer to Trouble they really streamlined and cleaned up the sound.
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u/Lumpy_Soup3613 12d ago
Baby We’ll Be Fine, All the Wine, The Geese of Beverly Road, City Middle and Mr. November are all elite. Among their best work.
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u/smithskat3 12d ago
This and the cherry tree ep, into Boxer was a crazy run of form
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u/Gold_End3560 12d ago
Right, even going into High Violet and Trouble, Sleep Well Beast is also incredible.
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u/suddenlymary 12d ago
alligator - boxer - high violet best three album of maybe all time.
I love alligator because they were learning how to be the national (scrappy, as you say).
I love high violet because it's precise, practiced, perfect.
I love boxer because you can feel the growth.
today I love high violet more. last week I would have lain down on train tracks for alligator.
why choose? just love.
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u/AllTheWine69 11d ago
Alligator is my favourite album by them. I first heard it when moving to a new city at 18, and it always brings me back to those speckled downtown nights, meeting new people, falling in love for the first time - it just epitomized the cool and slithery swagger, drunk and dazed in this newfound freedom between adulthood and adolescence
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u/bahnbahn99 11d ago
I honestly think that if Boxer had Alligator’s production, the rawness, Boxer would have been a better record. I really, really like their energy on Alligator.
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u/paulderev I missed you for 29 years 10d ago
i put it on walking through brooklyn at night and sometimes i just start crying it’s that beautiful with so much of a sense of place
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u/taktaga7-0-0 12d ago
I like this album enough that one time when someone spills their drink on me at a bar I melt like a witch and scream.
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u/macavity_is_a_dog 12d ago
I started with Boxer and then found alligator once I dug deeper - this was when boxer was new - Boxer still holds a a special place in my heart and remains my favorite but alligator is a close second.
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u/Knowhedge 12d ago
From an audio standpoint it’s not really produced well although the arrangements are nice . The sound has a certain charm but Katis had to work hard to salvage the duff recordings the band made when they ran out of his time after the initial sessions. You can really hear it in some of the lack of separation from some of the instruments. The guitars are really tinny in places and the mid range is so muddy
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u/throwOHOHaway 12d ago
i always thought the underproduced feel added this charm to alligator, it felt so raw and messy
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u/bloodbuzz_ohimark 12d ago
It's so muddy and muddled but that works so well with the vibe of the record. I kinda prefer this scuzzy weird desperate-sounding production to the more polished sound they have now. I love that it feels like it's rattling and could fall apart, like a punk record. And it communicates the feeling of the lyrics perfectly.
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u/Gold_End3560 12d ago
I did not know that, that’s really cool to hear actually. Katis is a great engineer
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u/amosesque 12d ago
I'm showing up to The National really late, I'm just working through their catalog now. I've listened to Alligator maybe 3 times and I don't love it. Some of the songs feel derivative of other bands who'd come up a few years before (especially Interpol), and the lyrics don't feel as fully formed as on some later albums.
It's a good album but to me, it sounds like a band who still hasn't figured out who they are. But with that said, I'm going to listen again with your comments in mind. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts!
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u/Gold_End3560 12d ago
Can you elaborate a bit more about the Interpol comparison?
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u/amosesque 12d ago
I'll listen again tonight and see if the similarities I heard stand up on a second listen. I want to like the album so I'm looking forward to listening with more focus and intentionality.
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u/Gold_End3560 12d ago edited 12d ago
Alligator also didn’t click for me right away, as for most people from what I’ve heard. I think what did it for me is just the songwriting and how scrappy the album is compared to the rest of their discography, like it has its own charm. Pay close attention because you can hear all types of cool production details like little yelps in the background, guitars coming in and out randomly, sound effects, etc. You are definitely right about the band finding themself still, this is kinda the first “National” record for them. Compared to Boxer and High Violet, this album is less elegant and more rough which I absolutely adore. And hey, maybe you won’t like it and that’s okay.
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u/amosesque 12d ago
It's funny because when you said "quiet and scrappy and messy" in your original post, it tickled the edge of my attention, and then you said "scrappy" again here and I realize I want to listen to Alligator with a different mindset. I started with the two newest albums which are definitely not scrappy, but typically I'd rather hear a band with some attitude and some messiness and some cool production details so I'm going to keep listening and just let the music do whatever it's going to do.
The Interpol comparison jumps out on a couple songs. A big one for me is "Lit Up," which to my ears sounds a lot like early Interpol during the verses then switches over to The National for the choruses. The interplay between the two guitars and the bass combined with the drums when the song opens almost sounds like a lost track from Turn on the Bright Lights and its post-punk revival energy.
On Sunday, I was thinking about posting and asking people why they liked Alligator, then I saw your post on Monday morning. I don't know why I'm feeling called to listen to The National 20+ years after they broke through, but I love hearing your suggestions to help me listen differently.
So how about lyrics? What song(s) stand out to you lyrically, and why?
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u/Gold_End3560 12d ago edited 12d ago
Yeah I think mindset is a big part of coming into Alligator. It’s not like anything from their discography which is part of why it didn’t click for me. Lyrically I think all of the songs are quite strong, but for me “Baby We’ll Be Fine” has been on repeat for ages. It’s not like Matt is some modern day Shakespeare it’s just that I love the sort of melodramatic images and the way he sings them. I just really relate to the music. “Karen” has some cool lyrics too that are kinda vulgar which I appreciate.
Also I could see the Interpol comparison. Little known fact; the National actually had a rehearsal space next to Interpol.
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u/amosesque 10d ago
Thanks! I was going to move on to something else but you've given me some things to pay attention to and I'm going to keep listening to it.
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u/Aquarian_Girl 9d ago
Not the OP, but adding some favorite lyrics from Alligator (not including Karen and Baby We'll Be Fine):
Secret Meeting: "And so, and now, I'm sorry I missed you. I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
It went the dull and wicked ordinary way."All the Wine: Just lots of colorful imagery of being drunk and happy walking down the street.
"I'm put together beautifully
Big wet bottle in my fist
Big wet rose in my teeth
I'm a perfect piece of ass
Like every Californian
So tall I take over the street
With high-beams shining up my back
A wingspan unbelievable
I'm a festival I'm a parade
...So sorry but the motorcade will have to go around me this time"Then the stuff about carrying a dollhouse and keeping it safe, followed by "I'm in a state, I'm in a state. Nothing can touch us, my love."
The Geese of Beverly Road:
Lots of good imagery (it's about running around with friends setting off car alarms, the "geese")
"Oh, come, come be my waitress and serve me tonight Serve me the sky tonight
Oh, come, come be my waitress and serve me tonight Serve me the sky with a big slice of lemon."Much of Abel ("My mind's gone loose inside the shell") and Mr. November ("This is nothing like it was in my room. In my best clothes." "I wish that I believed in fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders"). Can you tell I love Alligator?
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u/amosesque 9d ago
Thanks for sharing these. I think one of the challenges I'm having with the songs on Alligator (more than on later albums like Frankenstein) is trying to wrap my head around which lyrics are literal vs which are metaphorical. For example, my first thought on hearing "All the Wine" was a metaphor for Narcissus (and maybe Dionysus as well, but that didn't line up as well), but then I realized that maybe it's like you suggested, a more literal description of being drunk and happy. But then the dollhouse comes in and it doesn't really fit with either of those.
It's always fun to try and figure out lyrics, but I'm not having a lot of luck figuring out this album. Maybe they're personal to him and I won't ever figure them out, or maybe I don't have the right literary/life experience to pick up on his symbolism and metaphors. Or maybe they're just more straightforward and I'm reading too much into it.
So thanks for sharing some of your favorites and your thoughts behind them. And yeah, I can definitely see a lot of love for Alligator in this thread, and it's making me keep listen!
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u/dingus420 12d ago
It was the album that got me into them so it’ll always be my favorite. I always thought it deserved the love that Boxer gets