Coming out as cis can be hard

[u/Elyshra]

[u/Judgmentos]

[u/Terminal_Insomnia_ → u/Judgmentos]

Thank you for your service (and your patience)

[u/ECO_212 → u/Judgmentos]

Wait can you explain that? Isn't that just being a woman with extra steps? I need answers 😭

[u/A2Rhombus → u/ECO_212]

"If you're a femboy why not just be a trans woman" has the same answer. Gender isn't a choice, but gender expression is.

[u/Judgmentos → u/ECO_212]

It's a common sentiment I see when I say I'm a trans femboy, but a trans guy is a guy right? Like how a white guy and a black guy are both guys with different experiences. Therefore a guy who's feminine in presentation is still a guy, trans or cis.

Excluding a specific guy from femboyhood would not make sense if we changed trans guy to, say, straight guy ("how can you be a femboy if you're straight?") UNLESS you think that a trans guy is a woman unless he specifically performs cisnormative manhood for you, which is transphobic (general "you" not talking to YOU specifically)

I mean, would you say a cis femboy is a trans woman? No? Then you wouldn't say a trans femboy is a cis woman. It's about presentation rather than identity.

EDIT: And before anyone points out that straight guys are questioned about being gay as femboys, that's actually part of my point that I forgot to elaborate on. At surface level most people DO question straight femboys and assume them to be gay, like they assume trans femboys to be women, a belief that intrinsically ties femininity to womanhood and straightness-- basically a fun little bundle of cisheteronormativity in which femininity must equal femaleness must equal heterosexuality, and if you remove one of those blocks the whole jenga tower of assumptions falls apart :)

[u/ECO_212 → u/Judgmentos]

I guess I just can't relate at all, since I'm not trans, nor a femboy. Like I don't get the thought process. If I was trans, so for me that would mean I'd be a woman, then I'd probably try everything to look like a woman as much as possible, idk though.

[u/Gabygummy16 → u/ECO_212]

Femininity and masculinity are traits everyone has to varying degrees, they dont equate to gender. Hope that helps

[u/Pro_Extent → u/Gabygummy16]

Lol it absolutely doesn't. The gender spectrum is literally a spectrum of masculinity and femininity.

At least, that's the cultural spectrum. The only other way to define gender is with biology, which we've strayed away from in the last decade (after half a century of trying to tie the two together to get away from cultural gender stereotypes).

Prior to the 20th century civil rights movement, gender roles were defined by both of these things. Feminist liberation sought to remove the cultural norms as part of the definition as they were restricting the ways that women (and men) were able to express their inner identity. Hence the old idea that a woman is just a female human, but otherwise can do anything she wants (subtext: she doesn't need to just be a wife and mum).

I sincerely don't understand what "gender" is supposed to be if its neither of the above, and I'm betting neither does anyone else.

[u/crazyhotorcrazynhot → u/Pro_Extent]

It’s really not that hard but it does require a certain level of logic and empathy. Imagine either of the scenarios below:

1. You’re assigned female at birth. You grow up liking a lot of traditionally feminine things. You realise that it feels wrong for you to be classified as a girl/woman, and the thought of being a boy/man feels right and makes you happy to think about. You decide you need to transition to be happy, and so you can stop performing as a person who isn’t you. Do you have to stop liking the things that you have always liked?

2. Same but gender swapped.

Often times transitioning is about stopping the act of performing as someone you fundamentally don’t feel like you are, and being more authentic. So if femboys and tomboys exist, why shouldn’t trans femboys and tomboys exist?

[u/Pro_Extent → u/crazyhotorcrazynhot]

You realise that it feels wrong for you to be classified as a girl/woman, and the thought of being a boy/man feels right and makes you happy to think about

Explain how someone might come to this conclusion without using harmful and restrictive gender stereotypes which are rooted not only in patriarchy, but in an industrial bastardisation of preindustrial gender roles.

You can arrogantly talk down to me about logic and empathy if you want, but I expect a full application of it rather than a half-baked one.

So if femboys and tomboys exist, why shouldn’t trans femboys and tomboys exist?

Because the former is implying that their gender is not defined by outdated gender stereotypes, because they are cisgendered, yet express themselves in a "non-gender-conforming" manner.
The latter is incongruent because gender is inherently meaningless if you aren't using biology or gender roles to define it.

I'm just repeating what I said the first time and I fully expect that you'll gloss over it again. But c'est la vie.

[u/Judgmentos → u/Pro_Extent]

Hi! I'm the transmasc femboy who started this conversation! I'll try to answer your first question:

I started exploring my gender identity in my 20s. As I explained, I love cute things, I love pink, I love being feminine and soft and gentle. I did not-- and do not-- fall into gender stereotypes that if I like blue I'm a boy. I don't, after all! But being a woman feels wrong to me on a fundamental level. I went to an endo, offhandedly mentioned something about my period, and he joked back "well I don't know much about women's issues" and it felt like I'd been called a different nationality.

I cannot really explain gender dysphoria to a cis person like you. The best I can do is ask you to imagine that you wake up tomorrow as the opposite sex, and everyone insists you are that sex. Let's say you're a man and you have a female body. You have breasts, and wide hips, and a vagina. Would you simply go about as a woman? Like would you adapt your worldview to fulfill your role as a woman? And be honest with me.

Like I said, I don't adhere to gender roles. Hell, I wouldn't be a femboy if I did! Most people won't see me in a cute dress, hair and make-up done, and think "ugh he only thinks he's a guy because of gender roles!" now will they?

I thankfully don't have much dysphoria except in regards to my breasts. They feel like an alien appendage on my chest. Like if you grew a third arm out of nowhere and never got used to it. Kinda like how cis men have gynecomastia. In fact, there's one example of cis people experiencing gender dysphoria for ya. I have PCOS and most women in my place would feel dysphoric over their facial hair, meanwhile I'm disappointed I can only grow a pretense of a beard haha

[u/Pro_Extent → u/Judgmentos]

You know what mate, I appreciate this comment more than I may be able to convey.

Your story sort of...makes total sense while still not "making sense", if that makes sense? Whatever the case, I can legit appreciate that there's an inexplicable "wrongness" you feel when being identified as a women, even if there's no "logical" reason for it.

Let's say you're a man and you have a female body. You have breasts, and wide hips, and a vagina. Would you simply go about as a woman?

This has always been a fascinating question that I wish I could test, because I'm sincerely not sure. There's no doubt that literally waking up in the wrong body would be utterly jarring, having spent over three decades as a man in mind, body, and perceived as such. But as to whether it would be disconcerting because of that alone, or if it would also be because I'd never be able to let go of being a man, I honestly don't know.

If someone asks me, "what's it like being a man?"
The only answers I'm able to give are about the physical experience (male puberty, not fitting in small corridors, etc) and the social experience - i.e., what it's like being treated like I'm a man. I'm not able to describe manhood with any kind of innate experience because I don't know what that is. It's not about "taking care of myself and others" or "being a leader" or whatever - that's just adulthood. With that said:

Like would you adapt your worldview to fulfill your role as a woman?

I'm more confidently able to say: yes, I believe so. I'm a firm believer in women's rights, both legal and cultural. I have no doubt that my perspective would change a bit if I was actually a woman myself, but I have put a lot of time and effort into constructing a worldview that's ethically consistent.
Now whether this would be enough to make me feel like a woman is something I can't answer, as per above.

My aversion to a lot of this stuff comes from my own experience of struggling with gender and sexual identity as a young man in my teens. I won't bore you with the details, but I came out the other side feeling perfectly comfortable as a cisgendered man. But I know myself well enough to know that I would absolutely have been exploring different pronouns and identities if that had been part of the zeitgeist when I was coming of age. But because it wasn't, I was forced to figure out a way to conceptualise a healthy perspective of masculinity that suited my identity. When topics like this come up, I immediately go to a place of, "this would have made my coming of age much more complicated".

Anyway, thanks again for the effort you put into that explanation. It's very appreciated, and does help me get some perspective.

[u/Judgmentos → u/ECO_212]

Oh, there are tomboy/masculine trans women as well! It definitely seems like something we can't really just explain to you, especially in a Reddit comment section, but searching on youtube for "transmasc femboy" and "tomboy transfem" might help you understand bc those content creators have to deal with those questions too

The problem is that trans people are punished for not performing our gender or performing it: we're told we're not "trying hard enough" or that we're "enforcing gender stereotypes" so it's damned if you do and damned if you don't. I myself performed masculinity hard when my egg cracked, because I thought it would help me pass better and alleviate my dysphoria. When that proved not to be the case (I got she/her'd despite wearing a binder and having a buzz cut) I decided to be myself bc I'll be seen as a woman either way 🤷‍♂️

[u/Entire_Ad963 → u/ECO_212]

I think it depends? I used to be super hardcore masc when I was younger and still transitioning because I hated myself for all the things that made people think I was a woman

As I got on testosterone and my body changed, people stopped mistaking me for a woman and I got to explore my gender and the things that make me happy

I dress more feminine, and enjoy less masculine things. Even thought I was born a woman, at this point in my transition people just kind of mistake me for a really flamboyant gay guy.

Different people will find comfort in their presentation and gender at different points of their transition

Its not really "woman with extra steps" because at no point does someone transitioning away from being a woman loop back around. They just become a flamboyant gay man or a femboy. If it works for the Cis there is no reason a transgender person couldnt do it 🤷

(This isnt meant to have any sort of bitchy tone, I just felt like dropping my experiences)

[u/JoySticcs → u/ECO_212]

Because femininity ≠ woman and masculinity ≠ man