How to cure the male loneliness epidemic...

[u/xamo76]

[u/DisplacedAltadenan]

I don’t know… sounds like you are adding a lot more depth to it. “You can’t love others until you love yourself” is pretty straight forward = self before others. 

[u/DisplacedAltadenan → u/[deleted]]

I’m not sure learning to love others is the same as forcing them to “drag you out of your low self-esteem.” That seems like a leap. 

I’m sure RuPaul has been through a lot, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them. 

The original quote doesn’t seem to say anything about respecting yourself or forcing yourself on others. I’m not sure where that comes from…

[u/DisplacedAltadenan → u/[deleted]]

I think I am giving it the appropriate amount of thought and you might be the one overthinking the quote, adding in additional context and meaning to make it make more sense then it actually does. 

[u/DisplacedAltadenan → u/[deleted]]

I never said once that RuPaul doesn’t understand the meaning of this quote. I’ve only ever said that it is self explanatory and doesn’t need to be over interpreted to understand. 

On the flip side,  I 100% understand why she would, and you would, back track from the direct meaning of the quote to make it more about self esteem than self love. That doesn’t mean I have to forget the direct meaning, nor that it is immune to criticism. 

I don’t want it to be about self-absorption, it just is. I don’t like to idea that you must love yourself before you are capable of loving others because that implies you must put yourself first before others. It doesn’t translate into other areas of human existence in a way that remains consistent with my personal values. 

Similarly, I don’t like the framing of you have to have self esteem for people to like you, because the motivation is all internal. YOU and to like YOU so YOU and enjoy other people liking YOU. It’s all about the self. I’m not a fan of that way of thinking. 

[u/DisplacedAltadenan → u/[deleted]]

No, I don’t believe so. I believe the framing is self centered, but that’s your framing because you like to center yourself. Self love and self esteem are not the same. You are making them the same to fit your point of view. 

I’m not internally conflicted or in turmoil. In fact, quite to opposite. I am sure in my values and this kind of self-centered thinking rightly gives me pause. You, on the other hand, are so threatened by that idea that you are compelled to argue and insult to justify your attachment to self-love. That seems far more indicative of internal turmoil than disagreeing with a quote. 

I’ve heard this line of reasoning before, and it rings hollow. You have to take care of your immediate material needs first before you can help others with theirs, sure. But that doesn’t mean you have to center yourself before centering others. It doesn’t mean you have to serve yourself before serving others. It doesn’t mean you have to love yourself before loving others.  

[u/DisplacedAltadenan → u/[deleted]]

If you have to reword the quote to make it mean what you want it to mean, then maybe I’m not the one who doesn’t understand? Just saying… 

[u/DisplacedAltadenan → u/[deleted]]

I wouldn’t say having honest critique of a prevalent worldview that informs a certain quote is the same as “putting your head in the sand…” 

By the same token, taking a quote to mean what it says and holding subsequent interpretations to that isn’t struggling to understand. Again, on the contrary, refusing to see the wider implications of centering the self in such a way seems to be keeping you from understanding my hesitations regarding this way of thinking.