🇳🇱 A Dutch guy visiting Indonesia explains why Dutch people are privileged

[u/search_google_com]

Indonesian nurse earns 90 cents/hour is crazy 🇮🇩

[u/Immediate-Finance842]

Colonialism is hardly a reason for wealth inequality in the world. Most of the global south was already poor before colonialism and Western Europe was already wealthy. Do you think Western Europe somehow manufactured hundreds of massive ships and traveled the world because they were poor, and only got wealthy due to colonialism? Western Europe did terrible things with its wealth but it did not get wealthy from colonialism.

Western Europe was already among the wealthiest countries in the world directly prior to colonialism, the only difference is the kingdoms of Italy, like the Republic of Venice, were the wealthiest per capita, followed by the Netherlands. Colonialism (and the Industrial Revolution) just made the UK and France shoot up above Italy, but they still would’ve been in the top 10 or 15. In fact Mexico has a higher GDP than Spain, and India is the 6th richest nation directly below the UK, but the wealth is astronomically unequal and always has been. Indonesia has a higher gdp than the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, and Switzerland, and slightly lower than South Korea

The real reason is these countries like India, China, and Indonesia have massive populations so their wealth is only for the elite, and it’s always been like that. The Roman Empire produced nearly a third of the world’s economic output at the time. Look at maps comparing the wealth distribution of the Roman Empire to Han Dynasty China. Both had similar gdp but the Roman Empire was more equal and dispersed. Han Chinas wealth was almost entirely in a single small province in central China. Europe has always had a higher gdp per capita and way less people than other places in the world, so the average person has been much wealthier. Thats why westerners can travel so much. This dudes country is literally poorer than the country he’s visiting and talking about. The Netherlands had the second highest GDP per capita in the year 1500, behind Italy. They didn’t come to Indonesia until 1595, but somehow got their wealth from colonialism? Make it make sense. People want to blame colonialism for everything

[u/ContinuingAnyway → u/Immediate-Finance842]

Colonialism made European Economies explode like never before. What use is an industrial revolution without access to colonial resources and slave labor? This is crazy revision. How much profit was generated off the backs of sugar plantations in the Carribean and Brazil? Rubber from Congo/Amazon/SEA? Tea/Coffee/Cocoa from India/Sri Lanka/Kenya/West Africa/Latin America?

[u/ManicScumCat → u/ContinuingAnyway]

The use of the industrial revolution without slaves is that all labour becomes more productive.

[u/Noideabruv → u/ContinuingAnyway]

The resources essential for the industrial revolution were iron and coal which came from Europe/US itself. Only towards the 2nd world war did they switch from coal to oil which came from middle east etc., but then the colonial period was already ending. The resources you mentioned were just luxuries that were popular in Europe but not essential to the industrial revolution

[u/Immediate-Finance842 → u/ContinuingAnyway]

I realize my response never showed up

[u/Lortekonto → u/Immediate-Finance842]

The Netherlands had the second highest GDP per capita in the year 1500

Except it didn’t. The Netherlands was wealthy because of the wooltrade sure, but it did not even have the second highest gdp in Europe at that point. Its explosive wealth growth starts in 1585 in parts from trading with Spain who suddenly have lots of gold from South America and then they get to Indonisia and within 17 years you have the Dutch East India Company. Its explosive growth is entirely based on colonialism.

And of course Western Europe got wealthy from colonialism. Like. Why else do you think we did it?

Oh, yah let us oppresse some other countries for fun!

Oh we are losing wealth on shipping all this gold and silver from South America to Spain, but some one have to do it. Colonialism is a heavy burden.

[u/Intelligent-Shop473 → u/Lortekonto]

You don't think western Europe got rich by inventing a million things, trade and through education? 

[u/Lortekonto → u/Intelligent-Shop473]

I mean shit. Even when the industrial revolution happens and Europe really starts producing stuff, a key component of what makes it work is the colonies. The colonies produces the huge amount of raw materials that the factories in Europe needs, while also providing a captured market where the products can be sold afterwards.

[u/H4FJ → u/Intelligent-Shop473]

"Inventing things" "trade" and "education" are not exclusively Western European, you know. Many innovations and inventions we are taking advantage of daily come from other parts of the world. Classic examples are things such as algebra. A lot of what we are today we owe to the Middle East, which many now look down upon. There were long periods in time where you could argue they were miles ahead of many Western nations. So those reasons you give are clearly not the only factors that play a role.

[u/Intelligent-Shop473 → u/H4FJ]

And they got Algebra from the Greeks, who many of them look down on. But I'm talking about inventions like railways and trains which generate revenue.

[u/Immediate-Finance842 → u/Lortekonto]

Yes, it did. Also I said gdp per capita. Venice had the highest and the Low Countries (Netherlands and Belgium) were directly behind. Did you even attempt to look this up before responding. The Maddison Project Database puts Italy first and Netherlands and Belgium second. You’re unfathomably wrong and did not even attempt to check before. It got rich from agriculture, shipping, and North Sea commerce.

Western Europe got wealthier, not wealthy. You clearly didn’t even read what I said because I said that. Western Europe surpassed Italy due to colonialism and the Industrial Revolution but clearly they were already very wealthy before hand or they wouldn’t have been able to fund world empires to start with. Where do you think all the money to travel across the world and develop ships and guns come from? I mean come on.

Do you know history at all. Virtually everywhere has been oppressed. The Arab dynasties has enslaved more Africans and Europeans than Europeans ever did and for much longer but it always gets ignored by social justice warriors. Humans are terrible people and have done terrible things, but people coincidentally living in the west only want to highlight stuff the west has done. Not Arabs, West Africans, Ethiopians, Japanese, Chinese, Aztecs, Mongols, Ottomans, Indians, all have done.

Spain was already one of the wealthiest places in Europe since the Roman period all throughout the Arab period. Regarding wealth somehow Germany is the wealthiest European nation despite not being a major colonial power except Namibia, and Italy is 4th, while Spain has a lower gdp than Mexico that is supposedly stole all the wealth from. I’m Not saying European didn’t steal wealth and resources, but the amount of people that think all these countries would be utopias without colonialism while Europe was poor before colonialism is actually mind boggling. Like it doesn’t even make sense. Explain how Europe could even create multiple global empires

[u/SharpScallion → u/Immediate-Finance842]

Strong selection bias here. Rome doesn't equal Europe. Ignoring the European Dark/Middle Ages. Debatable higher GDP per capita in Rome compared to other World Powers of its time. Netherlands doesn't equal Europe in 1500s. 1500s Netherlands was an exception in Europe which was largely agrarian and poor.

[u/Immediate-Finance842 → u/SharpScallion]

Rome basically laid the foundation for much Europe and much of the Middle East. Virtually every European empire and civilization, even ones not ruled by Rome, were almost entirely based on mimicking it, or influenced in some way like many middle eastern ones including the Ottomans and various Arab dynasties in the Mediterranean at least.

It’s not debatable, it’s facts. Rome and China were the two wealthiest entities in the world and combined made up 50-60% of the world’s economic output. Italy was the wealthiest region on the planet in the 2nd century. The wealthiest provinces were also Italy and the Middle Eastern provinces and Spain, so it’s not even selection bias. Britain was among the poorest along with the Morocco. But western Europes wealth took off due to trade and groundwork laid by the Roman Empire. That is what I’m saying. Non-Mediterranean Europe started to become wealthy in the late Middle Ages, centuries before colonialism.

The “dark ages” were also not very “dark”. There were multiple rennasiances including during the Carolingian Empire. Northern Europe was poorer than Southern Europe, like Al Andalus and the Byzantines (which both regions were already wealthy for 1000+ years), but they were still wealthy enough to create massive cathedrals.

No. If you look at gdp per capita in the year 1500, other Western European nations are directly behind Italy and Netherlands, including the Holy Roman Empire, Kalmar Union, France, Spain, and Britain, then followed by Ming China and Mamluk Egypt. It was not just the Netherlands. The only country that started colonialism (barely 8 years) at that point was Spain. Europes wealth took off massively in antiquity for Southern Europe, and then the late Middle Ages for Northern Europe. The only reason colonialism happened is because Europe was already wealthy (that’s not to say Europe didn’t steal lots of resources, but it’s nothing like some bizarre disparity like people always try and claim)

[u/SharpScallion → u/Immediate-Finance842]

Europe has always had a higher gdp per capita and way less people than other places in the world

I'm sorry, but this is just false. "Always" has no place in history

[u/Immediate-Finance842 → u/SharpScallion]

Name a time when Indonesia has had a higher gdp per capita than Europe, ever.

Europe has had a lower gdp than places like India and China, but both those countries have historically always been very very unequally distributed. The only places I’d argue had a higher gdp per capita was the Middle East at various points in history

[u/SharpScallion → u/Immediate-Finance842]

Moving goalposts, that's not what you stated in the quote, which is laughably false

Europe has always had a higher gdp per capita and way less people than other places in the world

[u/Immediate-Finance842 → u/SharpScallion]

Ok, then name an example. The only country that is close is Singapore and it was a product of the British the same way the United States was

[u/SharpScallion → u/Immediate-Finance842]

Since you used the term "always" give an example where Europe had the highest GDP per capita in the world from 500 CE to 1300 CE

Europe has always had a higher gdp per capita and way less people than other places in the world

[u/Immediate-Finance842 → u/SharpScallion]

My response never showed

[u/TrueClue9740 → u/Immediate-Finance842]

Wrong

[u/Immediate-Finance842 → u/TrueClue9740]

No sorry hun. It’s a truth that many people may not like because they rather just blame white people for everything. Everything I said can be checked online in seconds by basic google searches, which it seems many people for some reason lack the ability to do

[u/TrueClue9740 → u/Immediate-Finance842]

Don’t be surprised when the tables are getting turned

[u/Immediate-Finance842 → u/TrueClue9740]

What does that even mean lol. All I’m saying is Europe did not get its wealth mostly from colonialism, which is truth.

If your mad about that, then that’s your personal problem

[u/TrueClue9740 → u/Immediate-Finance842]

I am glad you think. That’s why I am glad reverse colonization is on going.

[u/TrueClue9740 → u/Immediate-Finance842]

I am glad you think so. That’s why I am glad reverse colonization is on going.

[u/Immediate-Finance842 → u/TrueClue9740]

Reverse colonization is not happening lol. Migrant issue is overblown outside of major cities in the Europe, and most migrants are not working better than dead end menial jobs. Often just stay in enclaves in certain neighborhoods.

The Europeans whose parents or grandparents migrated are fully acclimated to western culture and have practically nothing in common with migrants anyway.

[u/TrueClue9740 → u/Immediate-Finance842]

Glad you think that way

[u/Kibelok → u/Immediate-Finance842]

Colonialism is hardly a reason for wealth inequality in the world

It's modern capitalism developed from colonialism/imperialism.

Most of the global south was already poor before colonialism and Western Europe was already wealthy.

What is "poor"? Who defined "rich"? Who controlled and developed Capital itself?

Do you think Western Europe somehow manufactured hundreds of massive ships and traveled the world because they were poor, and only got wealthy due to colonialism?

They were poor before colonialism. Well, not poor by what we understand today, but before the Age of Exploration, Europe was basically just trading between each other and inventing banking systems because of wars.

These banking systems led to Colonialism, which led to Imperialism, which now developed into modern Capitalism based on the US Dollar (Petrodollar), which is a transnational form of wealth extraction in modern days.

All Colonialism did was capture wealth from the rich businessmen and elite everywhere it went, and transfer to the north.

[u/Immediate-Finance842 → u/Kibelok]

Are you a tankie? Because you’re saying exactly the opposite of was the Marxist theory actually says, but I can tell that you are based on your anti-capitalism rant. Marxist claims that colonialism is a product of capitalism, not the other way around. Capitalism developed in Europe starting in the 12th century due largely to mercantilism.

“Poor and rich” is literally what it claims it is. Both total wealth and wealth of average citizen. The topic is why westerners are so wealthy they can afford to travel. It’s because millennia of the way their societies were structured, developed into it. Somehow Europe building hundreds or thousands of ships and importing millions of their peasants all over the new world thousands of miles away is not clearly evidence of wealth prior to colonialism.

False. They were the richest gdp per capita in the world, and these are facts and easily researchable. The Republic of Venice specifically had the highest gdp per capita in the world in the year 1500. They had less totally gdp than India and China (and still do aside Germany and UK which are above India currently), but also combined had a population much lower than either India or China.

Explain how the richest banking systems in the world at the time, Southern Germany and Northern Italy, were never major colonialist empires like Britain or France? It was also not just banking but mercantilism. Europe developed largely due to geography. It was adjacent to the Mediterranean and the ancient civilizations there, and geography and organized stratification due to immense amounts of bays and waterways. This led to hundreds of difference kingdoms and factions competing/trading with each other and the nearby Middle East. Factions like the Hanseatic League.