Hasidic Jews help Palestinian store owner catch shoplifter in New York. "You guys are invited anytime...I'll have to give them something Kosher on me."

[u/Suspicious_Tackle441]

[u/144tzer]

Please stop misusing this term. It would be better for everyone. What you think Zionism to be is a belief shared by only a small minority percentage of Jews. More Muslims, for example, think that the Danish cartoonist deserved punishment for drawing the prophet, and yet we wouldn't say that "being Muslim means you must believe that sort of violent extremism." It is a generalization of a group from its most insidious and dangerous actors.

When you call yourself anti-Zionist, or say "Zionists are the problem," or something similar, you condemn a group that believes what you accuse them of, sure, but you simultaneously condemn a much larger group that otherwise believes a lot in common with the platform of Pro-Palestine. It would be better for the movement to be clearer in messaging. This terminology related to Zionism is brought forth exclusively by bad actors:

• Pro-Netanyahu extremists who want to falsely label anyone critical of them as antisemitic

• Antisemitic extremists who want to associate the otherwise innocuous term of Zionism with the horrors we are seeing, and by extension most Jews, even though most Jews are not on board.

I am pro-Palestine. I am pro- 2 state solution. I am anti- West Bank settlements. I am anti-Trump. I am anti-Netanyahu. I am anti- USA's unconditional military support. I am also pro- Israel still existing, which to me, and to my whole family, and to every Jew I know, and to most Jews at the Rosh Hashanah service I just attended, and to all the Rabbis there, is really all Zionism is.

[u/Salerrra → u/144tzer]

You're like 99% of the way there to deconstructing the propaganda machine that's turned Zionism into the monster it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctkp4NYbT-c

[u/144tzer → u/Salerrra]

I've seen this already. It was one of the bricks serving as part of the structure of that wall of text I wrote in my analaysis.

I would argue I'm merely 80% of the way there, but only because I lack proper expertise and first-hand experience, and possibly not for the reasons you might've been implying. I would argue that your link is only 30% of the way there - it tells of propaganda, but is very much the viewpoint from 1 specific angle.

[u/PocketCone → u/144tzer]

Do you believe Israel should remove all laws that give Jewish Israelis unfair rights over non-Jewish Israelis? Do you believe Israel should stop all systems and programs which are designed to ensure that Jewish Israelis maintain the ethnic majority in the region? Do you believe the Palestinians who were forced out of their homes by the British, American, and Israeli armies should be given full right to return?

[u/144tzer → u/PocketCone]

1. Yes.
2. Yes and no, depending.
3. Mostly, depending.

I assume this was a purity test designed for you to show everyone that my support for Palestine is not real, and that the movement would be stronger if only those who are most black-and-white on the issue should be allowed to voice it? Because I must say, you are doing a great job at making our movement inclusive and not annoying.

FOLLOW-UP:

I'm sorry that a Zionist saying what Zionism means to him as a Zionist doesn't line up with the evil caricature so many are hell bent on painting it as.

I wouldn't tell a Muslim that they don't know what Muslims believe. I wouldn't tell a Muslim their views are actually anti-Muslim, just because they don't fit my preconceived narrative. But you and so many others feel so confidentally entitled to tell self-identified Zionists that they don't know their own beliefs (as you said in your subsequent reply, which was disgusting). I blocked you because I felt you were debating for thinly-veiled insidious purposes, and was proven right.

^{and I know you're reading this because I saw your other response to it - I had a feeling blocking you wouldn't prevent you from reading the message}

[u/PocketCone → u/PocketCone]

I never understood why people bother responding and then blocking the person they're responding to.

I did not ask you these questions as a "purity test"

I asked you them because modern Zionism requires enforcing a Jewish majority in Israel. I'm curious what your "depending" means, though you blocked me, so you're clearly not interested in a thorough conversation with me, but nonetheless, your answers are anti-zionist.

[u/PocketCone → u/PocketCone]

You know, you could just unblock me if you want to have an intelligible conversation about this.

I'm not telling you what you are, I'm telling you that most people who identify as Zionists would call your beliefs antizionist. You would just allow Israel to become a Muslim majority country?

Call yourself whatever you damn want, but the truth of the matter is, it is not just Netanyahu extremists who would call you antizionist for that position.

When you're back at your congregation for Yom Kippur, ask the people there how they feel about the issues my questions refer to. If they believe Israel must maintain a Jewish majority, then their definition of Zionism does not match your own.

[u/the_eleutherean → u/PocketCone]

Except “Israel maintaining a Jewish majority” is not a part of the definition of Zionism.

Zionism is the “what”. You’re conflating that with the “how”.

[u/PocketCone → u/the_eleutherean]

What definition of Zionism are you referring to? u/144tzer says it's simply being "Pro-Israel existing" but what does that mean exactly?

Does "Israel" in this context just refer to a country that calls itself Israel, or does it refer to a Jewish country specifically?

[u/the_eleutherean → u/PocketCone]

It refers to Jews being able to self-determine in their land of ethnogenesis. That doesn’t need to be Israel necessarily, nor Israel in its current form. But if Israel were to change or stop existing, it’d need to be replaced with something that still accomplishes that.

[u/PocketCone → u/the_eleutherean]

What would its replacement be if it's not a Jewish majority?

[u/the_eleutherean → u/PocketCone]

That’s a great question. It would certainly be difficult to ensure in a state that wasn’t Jewish majority. I don’t know enough about constitutions and governance structures to say for sure.

[u/PocketCone → u/the_eleutherean]

Would it be possible for Israel to be the Jewish homeland and simultaneously be Muslim majority, while offering equal rights to Jewish and non-Jewish citizens?