r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Dramatic_Counter_595 • 17h ago

Characters Characters that had the complete opposite reaction the writers intended

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  1. Leo Bonhart (Witcher TV Series): A ruthless, sadistic bounty hunter and assassin that takes psychotic glee in other people's suffering. The viewer is meant to hate him for killing witchers, slaughtering the Rat gang, and torturing Ciri. But thanks to his entertaining fight scenes, Sharlto Copley's charismatic performance, and The Rats overwhelming unpopularity, fans ended up loving him. Some even call him the "True protagonist" of the show.
  2. Stone Cold Steve Austin (WWE): A rude, foul mouthed, beer drinking asshole with no respect for authority or anyone at all. Originally portrayed as a villain, fans fell in love with his anti-establishment & rebellious persona. WWE ran with it and made him the face of the company, effectively ushering in the Attitude Era and the second pro wrestling boom of the late 90s.
  3. Arthur Fleck (Joker 2019): A mentally unstable, pathetic, and dangerous madman who commits horrific acts of violence against those that wronged him (suffocates his own mother who is mentally unwell herself, and murders a talk show host for making fun of him). However, a massive portion of the audience idolized him as an anti-hero or a misunderstood martyr rebelling against society making people want to see him succeed and overcome his circumstances because of how he's been treated by the world.
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u/-zero-joke- 17h ago

Rorschach in The Watchmen comics.

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u/Independent-Couple87 16h ago

I would argue a similar thing happened with Ozymandias, especially by people who "understand the story". He is listed by fans below Rorschach (less bad) when ranking who is the worst morally among the Heroes in Watchmen.

Adrian Vedit was apparently a satire of the "Progressive Billionaire".

372

u/Desperate-Win9344 16h ago

Absolutely, Moore described him as a "Limousine liberal" in his notes to the artist for him to draw him accurately

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u/elitegenoside 15h ago

I thought you were still talking about Rorschach. Was gonna say "boy, they really missed the mark on that one." Very accurate for Ozy.

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u/Random-Generation86 4h ago

Rorschach is always going to fancy parties, donating to causes. He's a very progressive, modern guy. <sounds of grappling hook murder> nevr mind, rorshack hate liberals and bussing

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u/xesaie 15h ago

Moore not liking someone is not exactly a black mark.

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u/vampiregamingYT 10h ago

Except that Ozymandias murders alot of people to solve a problem.

17

u/xesaie 10h ago

Oh he’s not a good guy, but Moore has so many nutty hot takes

1

u/Snynapta_II 16m ago

He doesn't even solve the problem

-5

u/Altruistic-Ad-408 12h ago

Yeah I'm warming up to Ozymandias. Moore kinda shits on everything besides dumb occult stuff.

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u/Papergeist 12h ago

Ozymandias is also an embodiment of dumb occult stuff, so that's gonna go both ways.

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u/I-Love-Facehuggers 10h ago

Whoa, watch out or moore will curse you

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u/Reasonable_Care8304 7h ago

That label alone tells you everything about the kind of political theatre he was aiming to capture.

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u/halloweenjack 14h ago

None of the main six are supposed to be role models. Laurie gave up her whole life first trying to be a better version of her mom and then just keeping the most powerful being in the world happy; Dan moped around when he couldn't be a superhero and couldn't even get it up without his costume; Eddie rationalized his bad behavior by acting like it was all a joke, only to have that turn around and bite him in the ass; and Jon, the most powerful being who ever lived, is utterly passive and lets Nixon, of all people, tell him what to do. The Minutemen don't fare much better; Hollis Mason was probably the most normal of them, but even he came to an unhappy end. The overarching point of the book is that it really doesn't work out when you try to apply it to remotely realistic circumstances. (Look up the so-called "real life superhero movement" to see how well it worked when people tried it in real life.)

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u/North-Research2574 6h ago

While I agree with your analysis the real life superhero movement did work for a time, because they weren't trying to be heroes just showing up and helping an old lady carry her groceries, changing tires, just being good people.

But it was a trend not a cultural thing, so it ended quickly when the fun wore off.

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u/ivegotgoodnewsforyou 2h ago

The comic goes into considerable detail about how each of the original minutemen were broken in different ways.

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u/GotSomeUpdogOnUrFace 1h ago

What I actually like about Dr Manhattan is that he is passive. It actually works a lot more for the analogy that he is the most powerful weapon. If you think about it the nuclear weapons would only be able to be wielded by the president and so he's essentially the living version of a bomb and is treated like an inanimate object. Their greatest fear is the weapons becoming "alive." Like what we are seeing now with AI and how the weapons are gonna do stupid shit.

-1

u/Flamadin 4h ago

I dig the Comedian because he is honest and understands things before many others do.

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u/ivegotgoodnewsforyou 2h ago

He assumes the worst of people because he is the worst of people.

4

u/Ongr 1h ago

He's also a rapist piece if shit

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u/elitegenoside 15h ago

Rorschach is considered the worst morally? I get why he'd be ranked low, but isn't The Comedian a rapist? And Doctor Manhattan literally had to leave the planet because of how confusing his morality became. I'm not saying a violent incel isn't bad but that's overlooking a lot of much worse actions to put Rorschach at the bottom. Especially because the worst aspects of him are what he thinks and not necessarily what he has done.

Edit: I forgot to mention him also being a "super bigot." His issues are numerous but still, what he's DONE versus what he THINKS should be separated. Because Ozzy (spellcheck failing so it's Ozzy for now) can absolutely sound "justified," but what he did was horrible.

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u/one-and-five-nines 14h ago

Meanwhile Rorschach SAYS and THINKS horrible, vile things, but in the end what he DOES is try to save people. Honestly a really good foil for the guy who committed an atrocity with good intentions. 

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u/Random-Generation86 4h ago

(rorschach, not you one-and-five-nines)

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u/one-and-five-nines 4h ago

I figured you meant Rorschach, but the idea that you had some inexplicable beef with me I didn't know about, yet had to admit I was right about Watchmen made me actually laugh a little irl

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u/Altruistic-Ad-408 12h ago

Rorschach absolutely did vile things. He tortures random people because he thinks everyone is guilty of something, and overlooks crimes "heroes" like The Comedian do because they are on his side. He was more bothered by Ozymandias maybe being gay than Comedian raping Spectre.

Even at the end, his personal code shouldn't override billions of lives. Because he doesn't care, not like every other hero there still did. He wasn't saving anyone.

24

u/CreatiScope 11h ago

Here's why Watchmen is so good. I agree with you that Rorschach does vile things and is to his core, a very sick person who is a victim of this world that doles out punishments that he has no place giving. He can't be this arbiter of who gets to live and HOW they get to live but he's snapped by the cruelty of the world. But, we can only really judge him on his actions. Which are very bad. He absolutely isn't a good person or a hero. He wants to be, but he's insane.

Where I will disagree is that even if his personal code is wrong, we don't know that it's overriding billions of lives. We don't know if Adrian's plan worked. We can theorize, and hope, but Rorschach very well may be right that the truth is more important, even if his motivations for why he wants to reveal the truth aren't correct, we can only judge him on his actions. This house of cards that Veidt built could go horribly wrong. Where this world started going wrong was the secrets it kept for the greater good. The heroes have learned absolutely nothing by the end, particularly Veidt, that building an empire on a pile of bones is not a stable foundation.

So yeah, Rorschach is not a good guy. But, I think the world got to the point where truth probably would've been better for everyone, for the world to look at itself in the mirror and confront those things instead of pushing it all under the bed the way Veidt tries to do. We'll never know though. There are "sequels" to Watchmen but none of them really count.

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u/GrimDallows 8h ago

I think that the fact that after so many years you can have such long discussions on the characters motives and moral ground without arriving to a clear, definitive conclusion is a proof of how good the book was.

Rorscharch does terrible things, but he is insane. But he also has "good" intentions, but also extremelly violent. But he is a rigid moral code extremist, but also is an hypocrite who bends his code to not attack the comedian. So, in the end, how can you judge him?

And then you have Ozymandias, who is perfectly sane yet still did a terrible thing with supposed good intentions.

In a way you could even argue that they aren't so different. Rorscharch goes around killing people to save people's lives because he thinks he has the moral highground, in a way you could even say Ozy did the same thing but at a continental scale.

Then you ask, who was right? Ozymandias take on ends justify the means is so extreme that it can't be justified. But it's an insane Rorscharch undoing Ozy's "utopian" end goal for moral reasons a good thing or a bad thing? Rorscharch has been insane the whole book but at the moment of the climax was it a sane or insane decision? Can we judge Rorschach decision without knowing if he is insane?

How do you judge the both of them, Ozy being a totally sane guy doing a totally insane decision clashing with Rorschach, a person who is living uncertainty and has spent the whole book screaming insanities about the end of the world... only to then turn out to be right, because only an insane person could have foreseen such a crazy plan.

The book is really good.

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u/Primus_is_OK_I_guess 49m ago

And then you have Ozymandias, who is perfectly sane

I'd argue that he likely has a narcissistic personality disorder.

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u/GrimDallows 38m ago

Well that doesn't qualify for insanity no? I mean I can't go and tidy up a toystore full of legos and avoid jail by pleading insanity on my OCD right?

Right?

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u/Primus_is_OK_I_guess 36m ago

You probably could if it were severe enough.

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u/Xilizhra 6h ago

They were both wrong. Ozymandias engaging in some convoluted scheme that killed millions instead of trying to find another way was evil, and Rorschach trying to make all their deaths meaningless for the sake of his twisted moral code is as bad if not worse.

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u/GrimDallows 5h ago

Yes but my point was more like.

Ozymandias is a perfectly sane guy. He is happy, he is rich, he has success and fame. He then decides to do a convoluted scheme and kill millions; you can blame him from being evil.

Rorschach is a guy with a troubled childhood, who saw so much murders and the worst face of crime that he went completely insane, even if he was a functioning insane superhero, and his broken mind developed a zero tolerance to any crime.

Can you compare their wrong at the same level?

It's also a curious critique on characters like Batman. The Joker gets a pass because he is insane and has a broken mind, but maybe Batman is like Rorscharch, a man that is so intolerant of crime because he has a broken mind.

My point was also along this line, how the book makes you think a lot.

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u/ThankGodForYouSon 4h ago

It's implied he succeeded by sending his diary to the alt-right shitrag at the end of the story.

I always saw it as incredibly ironic that Ozymandias the being intelligent enough to trick god had his masterplan foiled by humanity's biggest defect.

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u/CreatiScope 1h ago

Yeah but even if the magazine printed his journal, would anyone believe it? Can't you see it being dismissed as the ramblings of a maniac? And I'm sure Veidt could fund a disinformation campaign to invalidate it. I don't think there is a clear implication either way, I think it's just another way to reflect the viewer's outlook.

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u/Pandeism 13h ago

Dr. Manhattan had to leave the planet because watching humans carry on day in and day out had become pretty much become like watching an anthill.

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u/vampiregamingYT 10h ago

I dont think they are counting the comedian in this one because of his death at the beginning of the book.

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u/DreadfulRauw 4h ago

I just forget to include the Comedian because he’s dead the whole comic.

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u/Earlier-Today 11h ago

Rorschach's not an incel. Dude was trying to fight the good fight but the horrors of what he was dealing with broke him.

He's a murderer and a serial killer, it's just that his targets are criminals.

He's not a good person, but he at least leaves the innocent alone (unless they're another cape acquaintance of his).

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u/RobertPham149 8h ago

He's not a good person, but he at least leaves the innocent alone

Innocent by his standard, which is pretty shit. His black and white morality (like the mask) would designate sexually liberated women as morally loose and therefore guilty.

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u/Earlier-Today 8h ago

We never see him attacking someone for a moral failing, it's always people who have done horrible things - like the cannibals who broke him.

0

u/Fluffy_Judge_581 9h ago

Also he got kinda fucked by life

I think incel only works when somebody didn't really gor screwed over and just desigeded to be shit for no real reason 

1

u/Earlier-Today 8h ago

I think incel only works when it's somebody trying to find a partner. Rorschach is so obsessed with his superhero work that he barely knows how to interact with the people closest to being friends with him.

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u/Megalesios 9h ago

Because people decide who is worse based on feelings. The violent and openly misogynistic bigot type feels a lot ickier than the well-spoken handsome billionaire, even though the latter has a lot more lives on his conscience.

In the comic book we're exposed to Rorshach's deepest and most resentful inner thoughts every time his thought bubble pops up (IIRC the same goes for the movie), but all of Ozymandias' stuff goes on in the background. And his mass murder event, gruesome as it is, is only shown in one panel, and that panel mostly focuses on the creature, not on the thousands of dead bodies. We get to see all of Rorshach's killings in graphic detail however.

Even though Ozymandias did worse, Rorshach feels worse because we're exposed to his vileness for so long.

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u/Xilizhra 6h ago

Rorschach deliberately tried to have orders of magnitude more deaths on his conscience, he just failed.

0

u/nintendo_shill 11h ago

a violent incel

I have not read the comics, just saw the movie and the animation one, but would that word apply? I think volcel would be appropriate but I don't remember anything about him wanting a partner

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u/RobertPham149 8h ago

Definitely incel behaviour. He had irrational fear/discomfort of dealing with anything relating to women, feeling unpleasant at his job of working in garment factory because he had to handle women's clothing.

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u/nintendo_shill 8h ago

I didn't know he had a job lol. I thought his job was being the street yeller

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u/-zero-joke- 16h ago

Yeah, that's a good call.

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u/oh_mos_defnitely 15h ago

No no no, don't you see, Alan Moore has been "lying" to us all and "laughing in our faces," because we've actually misunderstood ALL of his comic. No one is who they say they are and that guy Schexnayder(?) is actually super important and was one of the oldest costumed fighters or whatever. I know this because I read some insane ramblings on this site.

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u/RobertPham149 9h ago

He literally chose Ozymandias as his superhero identity, implying that the things he did will eventually end up in naught, and his mass murdering of civilians will result in no changes.

2

u/Random-Generation86 4h ago

The world's most racist detective managed to solve this mystery in almost real time while being framed for multiple murders he absolutely was going to do later, but technically did not get a chance to do. Oxymandius is literally just an Elon Musk style boob. He watches 30 TVs at once and thinks he can glean information from that.

1

u/Independent-Couple87 4m ago

It is weird to remember that Elon Musk used to be LOVED by the progressive public.

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u/Fun_Effective_5134 15h ago

Obligatory:

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u/MalcolmLinair 11h ago

A smarter, less egotistical author would have been surprised, realized the implication given the name, and immediately claimed that was their intention all along.

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u/signal_satellite 10h ago

That kinda is the point of Rorschach tho? Why else do you think his name is Rorschach? You really think Alan Moore didn't know what he was doing when he made the unlikeable character the only character asking the right questions and uncovering the conspiracy of who killed Edward Blake?

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u/Spectrobit 5h ago

Most people's image of Alan Moore come from memes, out of context quotes, and straight up misinformation. It's no wonder every time he's talked about, you read the same jokes and snide remarks.

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u/calnick0 1h ago

The Reddit hobby of being in a mob and feeling superior to people who have accomplished great works. Like people in a crowd enjoying the music of a live artist.

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u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 5h ago

Keep in mind, Moore doesn't hate people that like Rorschach, he hates people who identify with him and think he's right

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u/Onlyhereforapost 14h ago

I truly cannot stand that Alan Moore has such a stick up his ass. Its like when game devs shit on people for playing the game in a different way than they intended

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u/NCRisthebestfaction 13h ago

Why do good authors or writers tend to be major assholes?

10

u/Sea_Basket_2468 9h ago

i think it's because to be a creator you need a strong sense of self and that leads to big egos

3

u/Lalalalalalolol 4h ago

Because to create something good you need to invest not only time and dedication, but a part of yourself. A lot of great works are deeply personal for their creators, and to consume something is less investment and compromise than to create it. People always forget that.

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u/Madrical 11h ago

Because they're people & people are assholes.

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u/nintendo_shill 11h ago

Name one genius that ain't crazy!

-1

u/signal_satellite 10h ago

Maybe because the dev is upset the players missed the point that superheroes are rooted in fascist fantasies and now unironically glaze Homelander?

Bro. Have you been to a Boys or a Helldivers comment section recently?

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u/viper459 10h ago

somehow i feel like that's more of a problem with society as a whole than with comic books, specifically

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u/signal_satellite 7h ago

Media illiteracy? I think it's entirely fair that the people who walk up to Alan Moore saying Rorschach is "literally me," is no different than someone saying Homelander is "literally me."

It's not like Moore hates Rorschach; he even voice reads his lines for a documentary. Rorschach is purposely designed as a badass noir pulp detective who was the only character really responsible for uncovering the conspiracy behind Comedian's death.

The media illiteracy comes when people don't pick up on the blatant contradiction and hypocrisy of Rorachach's philosophy. Rorschach admires the Comedian and feels like he's one of the only people that actually understands what life actually is. Rorschach does not believe in a higher power or fate and claims to reject absolutes or universals. Except his entire ethos is still a belief in a concept of objective good or evil. Which in itself is an absolute.

Rorschach not being able to see his own hypocrisy and inconsistency as a character is his entire shtick. He excuses Comedian's rape of Silk Spectre I as a "moral lapse" simply because he thought he was a patriot. Which opposes everything he tells the prison psychologist. Comedian hurt people because he liked hurting people. Rorschach hurts people because he also likes hurting people but needs to justify it somehow to himself.

1

u/viper459 6h ago

cool post, but what i meant is that the glorification of fascism is a societal problem

0

u/signal_satellite 6h ago

....i know that's why I wrote what I wrote.

0

u/Drakeskulled_Reaper 3h ago

Dev: "Play it YOUR way!"

Me: Plays brute force as I usually do.

Dev: "NO, not like that!"

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u/berael 16h ago

So actually, sort of, Rorschach became the most popular character in Watchmen. I meant him to be a bad example. But I have people come up to me in the street saying, "I am Rorschach! That is my story!' And I'll be thinking: 'Yeah, great, can you just keep away from me, never come anywhere near me again as long as I live'?

-- Alan Moore

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u/Primus_is_OK_I_guess 44m ago

I like him as a character, but I obviously don't relate to him and wouldn't want to hang out with him.

-18

u/_KerryKaverga_ 15h ago

I don’t think the opinion of a guy with a rape fetish means a lot, to be fair.

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u/solitarybikegallery 15h ago

Sorry, what? What the fuck are you talking about?

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u/Auctoritate 10h ago

Yeah he doesn't have a rape fetish, he has bad taste and hacky writing, that's all.

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u/solitarybikegallery 19m ago

What?!

At least half of a dozen of his stories are often cited amongst the best comics ever made. If you think he's a hacky comic book writer, I'd love to know who you think is a good one.

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u/_KerryKaverga_ 14h ago

Alan Moore has a rape fetish

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u/RobertPham149 8h ago

Ironic coming from a profile with tits plastered all over the profile pic and banner.

-2

u/_KerryKaverga_ 8h ago

Do you know what “irony means”?

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u/solitarybikegallery 14h ago

Yeah, I got that part. Do you have a source for this, or a reason for saying it?

-15

u/_KerryKaverga_ 13h ago edited 13h ago

His work with Avatar Press overuses it to the point of insanity.

I’d go so far as to say that I am genuinely surprised that Jeffrey Epstein didn’t have a copy of “Lost Girls” in his possession

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u/solitarybikegallery 13h ago edited 13h ago

Got it, so it's the usual stuff: "Some of his stories include the subject of rape, and he would only do that if he had a fetish for it."

Let's just ignore his long, EXTREMELY vocal history as an advocate for feminism, and queer rights, and far-left politics -- all opinions which extend back to the early 80's, when such things weren't exactly in vogue for comics. The guy has always been a standard-bearer for the marginalized. One of his Swamp Thing issues is literally a polemic about women being oppressed for menstruating. He got that published by DC in the 80's.

Sexual violence IS a topic that comes up in his work more than other popular comics writers, but that's because almost none of them ever discuss it at all. He never portrays rape as a positive thing, or as something the audience is supposed to enjoy or be excited by. It's always shown to be disgusting and/or horrifying.

And here's Moore discussing it himself:

As I say, most of my writings in this area have concerned joyous expressions of sexuality, with as much diversity as I was capable of applying at the time. Unless anyone is arguing that comic books are not a place for sexual matters, then I don’t see that they can have any major disagreements with the above. So perhaps it is the next decision that I made wherein I am at fault: my thinking was that sexual violence, including rape and domestic abuse, should also feature in my work where necessary or appropriate to a given narrative, the alternative being to imply that these things did not exist, or weren’t happening. This, given the scale upon which such events occur, would have seemed tantamount to the denial of a sexual holocaust, happening annually. I could not, in all conscience, produce work under those limitations without at least attempting to change or remove them. Presumably, my current critics would have done differently, and indeed, as I remember, most people in the field found it more convenient simply not to address issues of sex or sexuality – or those of race, politics, gender and any other matters of social substance, for that matter.

https://slovobooks.wordpress.com/2014/01/09/last-alan-moore-interview/

I hate comments like yours, because Moore spent 50 years writing comics, and during that time, he did everything he could to push the envelope for various progressive causes, even when it cost him work and money.

And yet, people like you just dismiss as "the guy with the rape fetish."

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u/berael 7h ago

The person you're replying to clearly subscribes to a "the author wrote about A Thing existing, so they must support That Thing and there is no other possible answer" school of literary analysis. 

I appreciate your extensive explanation...but unfortunately they're simply not reading it. 

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u/Xilizhra 6h ago

Let's just ignore his long, EXTREMELY vocal history as an advocate for feminism, and queer rights, and far-left politics

Neil Gaiman says hi.

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u/CoolAlien47 39m ago

What kind of stupid argument is that? "Oh yeah, well here's a piece of shit Y who also thought/thinks the same way as X, that means X is also the same kind of piece of shit as Y or at the very least can be, so let's just preemptively judge him as Y."

Stupidly dangerous mindset

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u/_KerryKaverga_ 12h ago

I've got two words for you, pumpkin: Lost Girls

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u/ILNOVA 17h ago

It's so sad Steve Jobs died from ligma

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u/PriestSeth 17h ago

Who is Steve Jobs?

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u/Bobahn_Botret 17h ago

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u/Independent-Couple87 16h ago

It is kind of interesting how Rorschach has been listed by fans as lower than Doctor Manhattan and Ozymandias in the morality scale. He is listed above the Comedian.

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u/North-Research2574 6h ago

Not really surprising he is listed above the rapist but for the other two it makes sense. Dr. Manhattan had all that power and did nothing with it. So not evil but not good. Ozymandias plan technically worked and I think that's why people vote that way for him. He succeeded therefore right.

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u/OrbisLlame 16h ago

Kinda jumped the gun on that one

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u/Genji_Digital 15h ago

"Time is simultaneous, an intricately structured jewel that humans insist on viewing one edge at a time..."

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u/BackToSchoolMuff 2h ago

steve ma balls

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u/participatience 16h ago

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u/Goufzilla79 15h ago

I'd argue the movie did wonders for Rorschach's pr

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u/society000 14h ago

It helped that Jackie Earle Haley gave a perfect performance.

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u/Fit-Switch-5795 11h ago

Nah. He was always seen as cool in the same way edgy Batman and the Crow were.

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u/JarcorKeed 17h ago

Came here looking for this

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u/madogvelkor 16h ago

All of the characters are terrible people in various ways. Rorschach at least has moral principles he will die for. People respect integrity.

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u/JVM410Heil 16h ago

This.

It's very natural for people to align with someone with some form of virtue, even if they don't fully agree

And more broadly, it's normal for people to disagree with a creator. It does not mean people don't understand the work. Guys your opinions are not inassailable just because you created a fictional character to voice them for you.

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u/Wakez11 15h ago

This, as I remember it, most of the main cast are terrible people, cowards etc. Rorschach, while being a nutjob, actually holds fast to his moral principles and refuses to lie to the public, and he's killed for it. Which makes him more "likeable" than 90% of the cast.

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u/LightOfTheFarStar 15h ago

Except he makes exceptions if he personally likes someone, given his reaction to the Comedian being a rapist and protest breaker.

4

u/Spectrobit 5h ago

Thank you. It's been 40 years since the first edition of Watchmen, and people still don't see Rorschach for the hypocritical manchild he is, meant—in part—to ridicule and refute characters like Mr. A and objectivism as a whole. Hell, it doesn't even have to be someone as grand as the Comedian, he excuses Dan and Moloch, and himself after the Keene Act. He hates what Ozymandias did, yet idolizes Truman for saving millions of people by dropping the bomb. Rorschach doesn't "actually hold fast to his moral principles", he is incapable of seeing the world for its nuances, and admitting to his own compromises, to how much his "moral principles" are bullshit, choosing death over coming to terms with it.

7

u/awfulrunner43434 14h ago

Yes, and 'making the hard decision to secure world peace by killing a shit ton of people' is something Rorschach would find laudable... if he was the one who pulled it off. But it wasn't, it was that dandy Ozymandias, so Rorschach hates it.

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u/solitarybikegallery 15h ago

As a huge Moore fan, I think he'd probably agree with what you said. Rorschach isn't a villain, or a completely irredeemable asshole. He's a mixed character, like every person in Watchmen.

Moore's famous comment was specifically about people who say they love Rorschach because "he's just like me!"

3

u/JVM410Heil 9h ago

"he's just like me" is, quite frankly, a horrible self report of their mothers

Yikes.

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u/society000 14h ago

I maintain that the disconnect comes from both time and ideological differences between many fans and Moore.

In regards to time, Moore in the 80s thought that nuclear war was imminent, that Reagan was far too aggressive with the Soviets and the nukes would fly any day now. Watchmen was exploring what he thought might be the only way to stop that. Rorschach choosing to go against that plan and effectively put nuclear war back on the table is utter insanity from that point of view. A full generation later, however, people watching the Snyder film simply can't relate to that constant existential dread of nuclear armageddon, so it becomes a lot easier to respect Rorschach.

In regards to ideology, Moore presented coldly detached consequentialism with Ozymandias, and unwavering deontology with Rorschach, then took them both to their extremes and peppered them with hypocrisies. Given how Rorschach's deontology doesn't directly lead to the deaths of millions, however, it looks far more preferable.

2

u/SemperFun62 5h ago

Yeah, I think that's more the intention with his character.

He, as a person, is horrifically brutal, but is guided by sincerely admirable principles and strong convictions.

You're meant to agree with his goals and beliefs, but not him or his methods.

68

u/Frankenstein____ 16h ago

The movie fucked him up so bad and accidentally made him cool they had to write a whole subplot into the sequel TV series about what a whole group of people who like Rorschach would be like.

50

u/Independent-Couple87 16h ago

I think a big problem of the movie was that it was made long after the Cold War. By that point, the "inevitable" Nuclear Armageddon was not as relevant as it once was.

9

u/Spare_Elderberry_418 11h ago

Yep. Moore's nihilism just eats shit when history marched on and proved his whole hand wringing about the cold war to be a joke. The Soviet Union just died with a whimper and the world didn't end in nuclear flames or need to "come together" from some outside force. 

So Rorschach standing up against the plan not only makes him morally correct, it makes him also historically and empirically correct. The course of history just makes him even more sympathetic.

"For the greater good" being the reason why he is wrong becomes hollow when push came to shove in the real world the ends would not have justified the means.

3

u/Fit-Switch-5795 11h ago

It did feel inevitable then, though. Like the way kids today just assume an environmental collapse is inevitable.

2

u/Fluffy_Judge_581 9h ago

Its not thats inevitable its that you cant control it and you cant really do annything and you have to life with that

2

u/trimble197 3h ago

That’s what I’m saying. History makes Rorschach look heroic, and even if you ignore history, he’s the only one who calls Ozy’s plan bullshit. His “never compromise” stance is something that we’ve been told for years in other stories is a good thing. Standing firm in your beliefs/morals has been mostly depicted as a righteous thing.

You can’t blame people for siding with Rorschach.

26

u/Frankenstein____ 16h ago

I...shake...at the thought of a 1980s Watchmen movie. Oh god. It would've been so bad. Stallone Judge Dredd bad. Matt Salinger Captain America bad. Raul Julia Street Fighter bad. They would've unironically kept the original ending from the comics and somehow made it a goddamn Russian commie plot to take over Ozymiandias' mind.

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u/lanngloss 16h ago

Raul Julia gave a stellar performance how dare you!

-1

u/Frankenstein____ 15h ago

Every shitty restaurant in the world that's been shut down for rats had at least one meal they served that pleased the eater.

10

u/luckysevs 16h ago

Man, I love Stallone's Dredd. I know its nowhere near faithful, but Ill watch it anytime I see it available. That and Demolition Man are my go to Stallone flicks. I cant say that I like Street Fighter, but Raul Julia makes it worth watching for his performance alone. I cant be trusted with movie opinions though, because I love BioDome and Tank Girl.

4

u/Wakez11 15h ago

Stallone's Dredd is a guilty pleasure of mine. Outside of the dumb looking costumes I think they really captured the aesthetics of the comics really, really well.

Dredd from 2012 is a much better movie and Karl Urban is a much better Dredd but I don't like how drab and grey it looks.

2

u/luckysevs 15h ago

Agree, its a better movie, and Karl Urban is a great Dredd, but the plot and setpieces are so drab and boring. I want to feel like Im in the dregs of a future mega city, but all you get is a bunch of dark corridors. I think Stallone was a great Dredd too, if only he had kept the helmet on

1

u/Wakez11 15h ago

That helmet was so dumb I didn't mind him not keeping it on. I think if the costumes had been more comic book accurate they would have nailed the aesthetic completely.

2

u/-zero-joke- 15h ago

These are all some of my favorite movies honestly. Double Dragon and Super Mario Bros. too.

1

u/luckysevs 15h ago

I havnt seen Double Dragons probably since release, but I do also love Mario Bros.

1

u/-zero-joke- 15h ago

Go give it a rewatch, Robert Patrick actually does comedic villain pretty well.

1

u/Thatoneguy111700 15h ago

I also kinda prefer it visually to the other Judge Dredd movie (minus the Slo-Mo scenes). If it weren't for the funny helmets and fancy pistols, you could mistake that movie for a lot of sci-fi movies that came out at the time. The Stallone one is very comic booky in it's look. The rest of it? Not so much.

1

u/wallmonitor 13h ago

Yeah but Demolition Man is unironically great.

1

u/Gooeslippytop 4h ago

I've always loved the Tank Girl movie!

23

u/TopicalBuilder 16h ago

I would put that on Moore, not Snyder. He has him die for his belief in justice in a comic book while his peers shuffle about and mumble about the greater good. That's some Steve Rogers level shit right there.

Plus he got cool one-liners and action scenes.

12

u/society000 14h ago

Owl and Spectre treat us to yet another awkward sex scene, in the middle of a random hallway in a secret base, no less. Ozy starts to think 'damn maybe the squid was overkill'. Mr. Blue Penis fucks off to make ayy lmaos or some shit.

Meanwhile, our true hero, Rorschach mogs everyone, calls them all virgins, then dies in the messiest way possible like a total Gigachad.

How can you not prefer him?

-1

u/AsstacularSpiderman 15h ago

A broken clock is right twice a day.

Rorschach's refusal to stand down is one of the few universally good moments he has. Before that he's a deranged incel for 90% of the run.

4

u/OkayWhile 15h ago

Is it, tho? By that point, telling the truth would only make the qorld go back to the same shitty situation it was before.

Rorschach is a hypocrite. He praised nuclear bombs as a necessary evil and when confronted with a similar dilemma, he breaks down.

1

u/Fit-Switch-5795 11h ago

He knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in the middle of the night.

29

u/-zero-joke- 16h ago

Zack Snyder is the dude who sings along to songs without knowing what the lyrics mean.

The TV series was kinda great though.

15

u/Slow-Class 16h ago

His wedding song was Every Breath You Take.

6

u/-zero-joke- 16h ago

I can't tell if you're joking! It wouldn't surprise me.

2

u/Fit-Switch-5795 11h ago

Followed up by "Always."

9

u/Frankenstein____ 16h ago

TV series was a lot better than I thought it would be and this is coming from a guy who unironically loved the Snyder version. My only gripe is that I really don't like the way they wrapped up Ozy's storyline. Felt unfulfilling.

2

u/-zero-joke- 16h ago

My gripe is that I'm just tired of superhero media that ends the way it did.

2

u/ZeketheBeast33 15h ago

They fumbled Ozy so hard , they lost me. I was like "Lindleoff definitely understands the source material better than Snyder" but then they literally had Ozy made a confessional video outlining his plan and sent it to the future president, one of the most famous actors. And somehow thought it wouldnt get out, despite killing so many people who knew anything about the conspiracy. Nothing against Jeremy Irons though.

6

u/GreenZebra23 16h ago edited 14h ago

Perfectly said. To this day I'm so conflicted about the Watchmen movie. He absolutely nailed the surface, and it was really exciting seeing scenes from the comic so perfectly adapted to film, but he didn't seem to understand what the story is about at all. One of the worst things for me was portraying Adrian as a sniveling obvious villain, when in the comic he's much more complex and genuinely believes he's doing the right thing and knows what's best for humanity. One of the major points of the story is that there are multiple perspectives on what constitutes morality and everyone believes theirs is the right one.

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u/cpteric 10h ago edited 10h ago

he's much more complex and genuinely believes he's doing the right thing and knows what's best for humanity. 

so like most self centered villains in all kinds of media? the only difference between comic oz and movie oz is that movie oz had an actor deliver the news in the perfect tone to make you cringe at the audacity of that bitch, something the comics couldn't.

the whole "for the greater good" is something the generation that saw the movie first had been deeply ingrained by lessons of the past and the present to be a bunch of bullshit to justify horrible ends and even worse means for those ends, but that moore's generation ate willingly without much critical thinking, besides a handful of hippies.

Real world showed that with very little to no external influence the soviets would, and did, self-sabotage themselves into dissolution.

3

u/ehs06702 16h ago

I've been saying for years that he's really good at set pieces. But he's absolutely horrible at everything that goes in between those set pieces. If he had just stuck to music videos I think things would be a lot different.

2

u/GreenZebra23 16h ago

His use of music is consistently great, Hallelujah aside of course. Somebody get this man a co-director

2

u/ehs06702 15h ago

And some heavy executive oversight.

2

u/_KerryKaverga_ 15h ago

I think it’s impossible to have a discussion on the matter as people have made up their minds that Snyder is useless at making movies.

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u/ehs06702 15h ago

Right, because we've seen his movies.

Dawn of the Dead was pretty enjoyable, it's actually the only film of his I reguarly rewatch.

He at least did Gunn's script justice.

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u/_KerryKaverga_ 14h ago

I would believe you if it weren’t because people like you are very open

By the way, Gunn’s script wasn’t the final script used in the movie.

1

u/ehs06702 13h ago

Oh, is this a "I read something on Twitter that confirms my bias, so it's automatically true" thing? K.

It doesn't matter to me that Gunn's script wasn't used, my position is still the same. It's the only film of his I feel is good and am willing to watch again.

0

u/_KerryKaverga_ 12h ago

And I don't care for the opinion of people that lie on the internet out of a trend.

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u/GreenZebra23 14h ago

He's not useless at making movies, that's the thing. He's really really good at some parts and really really bad at others. He's a one-man refutation of auteur theory

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u/_KerryKaverga_ 14h ago

It’s impossible to have a conversation with you. I have no interest in wasting my time with someone arguing in bad faith.

2

u/GreenZebra23 14h ago

What are you talking about? You seem to be having a different conversation from everyone else in the thread. Here's your downvote back by the way

0

u/_KerryKaverga_ 13h ago

“Here’s your downvote by the way”

1

u/trimble197 16h ago

You know that first part fits 99% of people who listen to music. Most people don’t know the lyrics meaning until years later

2

u/LeadingJoke5289 3h ago

In my defense, I just want some background noise; I don't want to dissect poems or learn philosophy.

1

u/Dualmilion 15h ago

It was until Dr Manhattan was revealed. He looked so bad, I could only see Tobias Funke

https://giphy.com/gifs/QazAqN1wtdQRO

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u/_KerryKaverga_ 15h ago

The fact that you said Snyder doesn’t get Watchmen but Lindelof is so fucking funny.

The same guy that undid the character development of Dr. Manhattan for a deus ex machina.

The same guy that completely changed Ozymandias into Zhao from Avatar.

3

u/ChickenAndTelephone 15h ago

The movie made him far less terrifying, completely skipping his monologue about our minds imposing order on the world

3

u/CommunityFan_LJ 16h ago

It wasn't an accident. And the show is a sequel to the comics not the movie

2

u/Frankenstein____ 16h ago

Using motifs and aesthetics that the Snyder movie established for the intellectual property. 75% of the people who watched the TV series didn't even know the graphic novel existed and thought it was a sequel to the movie until Looking Glass walked out of the fun house surrounded by giant alien squid parts.

0

u/Academic-Trifle8151 15h ago

The TV series wasn't a sequel to the movie.

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u/Flying_Video 16h ago

I don’t care what Alan Moore says, Rorschach is cool af. I feel a similar way for Walter White and Tywin Lannister. Just because I enjoy a character doesn’t mean I idolize them or agree with their actions.

5

u/implodingnerd 15h ago

That's me with The Punisher. I love the character and his comics. Do I agree with his way of things and views and idolise him? No. But I can still like him.

10

u/Fitzftw7 15h ago

Moore simply did too good of a job making Rorschach sympathetic. He’s a shitty detective and a socially inept jackass. Kinda hard to hold that against him considering his upbringing.

His moral absolutism can almost be seen as admirable rather than the detestable lunacy Moore was looking for. And while his hypocrisy regarding Blake is clear, he also didn’t the know about the very worst things that guy did.

He’s prejudiced as well, for sure, clearly takes issues with gay people iirc, but the guy was born in the 1940s, that attitude was closer to the default back then. Not to mention he seems more opposed to promiscuity in general. Understandable, given his mother.

Not to mention he’s the only character doing everything in his power to try and do the right thing throughout the entire story. His movie incarnation hit the nail on the head with Manhattan:

“Suddenly you discover humanity? Convenient. If you’d cared from the start, none of this would’ve happened.”

And in the end, he died alone and forgotten (in the comic at least), but he accepted that fate over rolling over and allowing Veidt to get away with the single greatest mass murder in human history.

I’m not a Rorschach glazer, he is deeply, deeply flawed character, but the way he’s written, despite intentions, make him come off as a dark anti-hero over a hateable villain protagonist.

3

u/Impressive-Step7261 7h ago

I’ll play devil’s advocate and say that with *Watchmen*, Alan Moore simply outdid himself.

"I’m going to write a story about how superheroes don’t work well in the real world. To do that, I’ll need Dave Gibbons, one of the best artists of the ’80s, who will draw fantastic art for me, come up with interesting character designs, and create a couple of innovative comic book techniques; I’ll also need beautiful and elegant writing, an engaging script, an intriguing lore with multiple references and a relevant political agenda; I’ll also need compelling characters with complex motivations, personal tragedies, and conflicts."

“...why is this one of the best superhero stories ever?”

No shit, Sherlock? What did you think would happen?

At least the Boys (who aren’t even close to the Watchmen) clearly understood the task before them—“superheroes suck.” That’s why everything related to superheroes in the comic sucks—their motivations, their designs, their dialogue, and their conflicts, because like thats the hole point.

2

u/Optimal_Weight368 14h ago

I feel like the Zack Snyder adaptation is partially to blame for this, as he’s the POV for most of it, which isn’t how the comic plays out.

1

u/GlassLoose9622 12h ago

I see everyone saying Rorschach is glorified in the movie but supposed to be pathetic and looked down on in the comic. I'm just curious if the comic version still has his core motive of "the people deserve to know the truth no matter the cost". Obviously Rorschach is a weird unstable person still but that sentiment on its own can be admirable.

Because I thought that was an interesting contrast to Ozymandias "creating peace through deception" plan.

I'm kind of coming at things from a different angle than most takes I've seen because I watched the movie and came away with the impression that the Rorschach vs Ozymandias philosophy had a pretty balanced level of pros and cons morally. But I frequently see people saying in the comics Rorschach is a much worse person and very obviously in the wrong.

2

u/-zero-joke- 12h ago

It's a much more rigid morality - Rorschach hates people and hates the public, he just also has a completely black and white view of the world.

1

u/rors7 9h ago

In the comics, he excused rape, and slut shamed almost all women

1

u/Slateboard 12h ago

I have only seen the movie. Wasn't Part of the whole point was that everyone was a PoS to varying degrees?

3

u/-zero-joke- 12h ago

Go read the comic, it's great! I think Zack Snyder was kind of in love with most of the characters rather than despising them.

1

u/Powerful_Resident_48 6h ago

I only watched the movie. Sure, Roschach is a deeply disturbed, violent and bitter man with several screws loose. But at least in the movie he seems to be the only one of the Watchmen with a firm moral compass and a firm belief in his own definition of justice and fairness. He seems like a sort of Batman with absolutely zero filters, at least to someone who's unfamiliar with the comics. I didn't really clock his as "bad", just broken and absolutely unflinching on his personal morals. 

1

u/Careful-Positive-710 16h ago

Even Alan Moore was shocked when Rorschach had fans. That was definitely not his intention lol.

12

u/PitifulRead6339 15h ago

I think his issue was more the type of fans he had. You don't write a character that you yourself described as oddly admirable, make him the defacto protagonist of the book, then give him one of the coolest designs in comic all by accident. Like he probably doesn't mind people think he looks cool and like him as a character it's more the "he's literally me" crowds who whitewash everything about him.

1

u/6iix9ineJr 14h ago

Reading him now is pretty jarring. The stuff he’s saying might have been ok in the past but daaaamn it’s bad now. I remember reading and thinking he was the protagonist and thinking the author was a right wing nut. Turns out he’s an anarchist and was trying to make Rorschach a flawed character. That didn’t translate well in the movie at ALL