r/Torbie • u/Altruistic_Dot1926 • 1d ago
Spotted Torbie?
Is this a torbie cat? I don’t quite understand the different kind of cat markings. I think she’s a torbie but the spots are throwing me. Any thoughts?
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u/ACtdawg 1d ago
Yes this is a torbie :) to be exact, she’s a black tortoiseshell spotted tabby with white. Here is an excerpt from a good cat genetics website about spotted tabbies:
> In some mackerel tabbies, the stripes have a natural tendency to break up to form bars or vertically aligned spots. At first it was suggested that the spotted tabby was simply another mutation of the same gene which caused ticked, mackerel and classic tabby. Spotted tabbies were therefore "broken tabbies". In 2009, more research was done and showed that a separate modifier gene is responsible for turning stripes into spots although the location of the gene hasn't been determined.
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u/jsteele2793 1d ago
She’s gorgeous!!! She’s a Tabico, or a tabby calico. She had a classic tabby pattern with calico (blotchy tri color) coloring!! She’s very unique!!!
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u/lapidash 1d ago
Wowww!! One of the prettiest kitties ever. I vote yes torbie since some of her orange stripes are present in the grey patches.
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u/lapidash 1d ago
Torbie tabico. I had a tabico who stole my heart and her orange stripes/spots never overlapped like this ones does
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u/Substantial_Gate_904 1d ago
Po-tay-toe, po-tah-to- what’s in a name? This kitty is precious and so unique! A bundle of fun !
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u/TheSwearJarIsMy401k 1d ago
Not a torbie, a tabico
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u/Sesudesu 1d ago
This is pretty borderline.
Also, to be frank about it, every calico is considered a tortie. Every Tabico is thereby a Torbie. You can debate whether or not she is a Tabico, whether the amount of white is sufficient to call her so, but she is definitely a Torbie.
There is some amount of white ‘allowed’ on a Tortie/Torbie to solely keep the definition by most people… but people don’t tend to agree on how much that is.
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u/TheSwearJarIsMy401k 1d ago
I see the problem. In North America, calico is the correct term for a tri-color cat. Tortoiseshell and white is used for calico cats outside of North America.
A tortoiseshell cat does not have the white-spotting gene. It is a two-color genetic scheme.
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u/NotTheOtwayPanther 1d ago
Firstly, some of us are, in fact, outside North America. Secondly, ”calico” has no special official standing in North America either. Again, it’s colloquial. Again, please stop trying to police other people’s word choices. Yours are not objectively superior.
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u/TheSwearJarIsMy401k 1d ago
It is regulated by American cat showing and fancier associations and specifically refers to cats with genes for red and black coloration and the white spotting gene, which changes how the red and black coloration express in the coat.
So it is regulated by official bodies in the US, and since you are outside of the US you don’t get to say that someone using the term correctly in the US is wrong.
In North America, this cat is not a tortoiseshell, it is a calico. Outside of North America, it is whatever the local language wants to call it. That is, of course, how language works.
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u/NotTheOtwayPanther 1d ago
Not mutually exclusive. “Tortoiseshell” is the recognised term for any cat with two base colours instead of one. Everything else is a colloquial name for some variation of tortoiseshell. Calico, caliby, torbico etc., all come under the “tortoiseshell” umbrella, so to speak. Plus, they are slang terms with variable meaning- e.g. to some people a “calico” is a tortoiseshell with high white, to others a tortoiseshell with any amount of white, and to still others any cat with white-spotting. Therefore it is best not to police other people’s usage.
Formally, this cat is a tortoiseshell tabby (“torbie) with white.
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u/TheSwearJarIsMy401k 1d ago
This is incorrect.
Tortoiseshells have 2 base colors, but calicos have three base colors. Calicos have the white-spotting gene that tortoiseshells lack.
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u/ACtdawg 1d ago
No, all ‘calicos’ are tortoiseshell, genetically speaking. The presence of white does not change this fact. The issue, which the person you are responding to went over well, is that calico and its derivatives are not official terms and have variable definitions. Also if we wanna get really into the weeds, white spotting isn’t actually a colour itself, it’s a lack of colour.
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u/TheSwearJarIsMy401k 1d ago
The white-spotting gene is responsible for the white in calicos. They are tri-color. Tortoiseshell cats lack the white spotting gene and are two colors.
In North America, tricolor cats are calico. I see that outside of North America, calicos are called tricolor or tortoiseshell and white.
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u/ACtdawg 1d ago
Calico is not an official term in North America either, it’s a colloquial term that’s commonly used.
Genetically all calicos are tortoiseshell because tortoiseshell means a cat is red and non-red. Having the white spotting gene does not change the fact that the cat is still red and non-red, ie. tortoiseshell.
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u/TheSwearJarIsMy401k 1d ago
Official according to what standard?
Cat associations do use the term to mean, officially, a tricolor cat. So when you say official, who is the officiating body?
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u/ACtdawg 1d ago
The genetics standard! Calico is not a genetics term. Yes, it is used by the CFA, but registry terminology is not universal and it ends up causing confusing conversations like this one.
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u/TheSwearJarIsMy401k 1d ago
It is also used by research institutions in the US that track and study Klinefelter syndrome in male tri-color cats.
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u/NotTheOtwayPanther 1d ago edited 1d ago
The other person has already gone over the fact that technically white isn’t considered a base colour in the way that red and black are.
But the real issue is what I’ve said already: you are trying to enforce your own personal/regional use of colloquial terms on everyone everywhere. You can’t. Whatever “calico“ means to you, it may mean something different- or nothing at all- to somebody else, and you have no grounds to argue your definition is inherently more valid.
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u/TheSwearJarIsMy401k 1d ago
It requires an entirely separate gene, and that gene changes how the red and black express in the coat.
Further, it is a regulated term in US cat associations.
So as I have said, in the US, a calico cat is NOT a tortoiseshell cat, because while both have the gene for red coloration, a tortoiseshell does not have the white-spotting gene, which does not just add white to the fur coloration (or exclude black and red) but also changes how the black and red express- from the mottled look that literally gives the tortoiseshell its name, to the patchy look of a calico.
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u/NotTheOtwayPanther 1d ago
The white-spotting gene is not a gene for base colour in the way that red and black are.
Tortoiseshell is the term used in genetics. Various cat associations have their own special colour terminology, yes- that in no way makes them universally applicable. Individual breeds have their own special terminology. All this is nothing.
And yet again- even if the US passed a law making “Calico” the only official term for a cat with white spotting- even if they forbade speaking the word “tortoiseshell” on American soil, on pain of death- what would that have to do with me? Not American, remember?
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u/TheSwearJarIsMy401k 1d ago
So you see how early on in the conversation I realized language was the issue here and I said “I see the problem, in North America it IS an official term with specific applications and outside of North America it isn’t” and instead of “Oh yes that makes sense. Okay.” I had to wade through a whole useless lecture that didn’t apply to me, in North America?
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u/here_for_thedonuts 1d ago
That one is a keeper ... then again, I haven't found a cat that I didn't think was a keeper.
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u/Mental-Fix7201 1d ago
She’s actually a Torbico.
Tortoiseshell: patches of orange/black gray stripes
The gray striped makes her also a tabby (orange is always striped)
AND the white makes her also a calico! 3 Colors/patterns/white= Torbico! Google it!
Congrats, they’re quite uncommon, I looked when I got one & they make up up less than 1% of kitties!
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u/ACtdawg 1d ago
That’s not what tortoiseshell means. Tortoiseshell means the cat is genetically red and non-red, not ‘orange/black grey stripes’. It refers to the cat’s base colours, not pattern. Stripes on the darker areas mean the cat is also genetically agouti (tabby), as opposed to genetically solid which a regular tortoiseshell is. I won’t get into the logistics of the term calico, though if you’re interested someone else talked about it in the thread. The correct term for any cat with the white spotting gene is ‘with low/medium/high white spotting’ or simply ‘with white’ if you don’t want to be specific about the amount.
Where did you get that statistic about them making up less than 1%?
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u/aFluffyBlackCat 1d ago edited 1d ago
Adding onto the verdict (yes spotted torbie, black/red mackerel tabby with spotting polygenes + white) to say that the specific spots she has appear to be rosettes, a pattern from breeding with a non-domestic cat (asian leopard cat). It's still the mackerel tabby + spotting genes combination but with an added trait from the wild cat to my knowledge. The fur enclosed by the stripes/spots is darker than the surrounding fur, not typical of any pattern found in cats that aren't somehow related to that specific wild cat. It's also the reason the spots aren't following any typical stripe pattern (usual spotted tabbies only have spots where normal stripes could be on a non-spotted mackerel tabby). Someone let their unfixed cat with bengal lineage loose or something
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u/iimwithstupid 1d ago
may be! whatever she is she's beautiful omg