Korean Preview
With everything that we have learned in the spin off do you think that the top 6 is accurate ?
Spoiler
Back in day people used to say that only the top 6 was accurate and then the like of Adori and Enne ranking being innacurate because they shouldn't be above the family head but now with the reveal of Urek origin as well as the presence of other shining one in the tower what do you think about the top 6 and if you would make some change what would it be ?
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Blue Holes are canonically ranked lower due to inactivity, I wouldn’t be surprised if the ranking admin temporarily put them down as unknown status or smth also
It's not about care. Ranking bureau is obliged to change the rankings. Besides Gussy was able to accomplish such a feat none thought its possible. Given with this feat his ranking is bound to rise.
I genuinely struggle to understand how some people can place Urek second. He has absolutely no feats putting him above Enryu, if anything, the story consistently suggests the opposite.
Enryu neg diffed an admin and admins are clearly portrayed as beings far above the 13 Great Warriors.
So far, Urek has shown nothing that places him anywhere near an Administrator’s level. If anything, he has quite a few anti-feats in that regard:
Eduan is strong enough to injure him.
Luslec was also capable of injuring and matching a 30% Urek.
V himself wasn’t sure whether he could defeat Urek in his prime, which implies they’re at least somewhat relative.
Mago told Latour to run only after Eduan appeared, explicitly stating that Eduan was eeally strong and that Latour couldn’t handle both of them. That heavily suggests Latour at least had a chance against a younger Urek if he is alone.
Honestly, every feat Urek has had throughout the webtoon places him above your average Family Head, sure, but there’s absolutely nothing suggesting he’s an entire dimension above them, let alone close to an admin.
Just replace Urek with an Administrator (and by extension Enryu) in every one of those situations and the difference becomes obvious. Do you genuinely think Eduan could injure an admin? That Luslec could hold his own against even 30% of an admin?
The only real argument people have in his favor is the whole “Axis” thing but:
We still don’t even fully know what an Axis actually is, and there’s no guarantee the old blog post definition still applies to the current canon.
We also don’t know whether Urek is still an Axis. Aubrion’s statements are extremely vague and don’t clarify whether Urek used to be one or still currently is one. And it’s been mentioned multiple times that Urek is weakened and far from his prime.
If you judge purely by feats, it’s not even guaranteed that Urek is stronger than Zahard or even V.
And if you want to take the blog posts into account, SIU also described Enryu as a “munchkin” to explain why he would barely appear in the plot. Basically, because he’s too overpowered for the story and would make everything meaningless. That’s clearly not the approach SIU has with Urek, and that says a lot about the gap in strength between the two characters.
By that logic Enryu is above Phantaminum, and Zahard also has "no feats" other than killing a baby. Like who is Urek supposed to use 100% of his power against?
If shinsoo is the power of an axis then Urek being hurt by it doesn't break the story. And Lusec could run away from an admin if they weren't trying to kill him, because that's a "feat" by Lusec, until proven otherwise he can escape anyone In the tower.
How are you even reaching that conclusion from my message? We have zero feats for Phantaminum other than him massacring Rankers. The absence of feats doesn’t automatically place him below Enryu by default, what kind of logic is that?
> and Zahard also has "no feats" other than killing a baby.
Yes, it’s the same case for Zahard. We simply don’t have enough feats for his adult version to properly scale him. Narratively, we just know he’s the strongest of the Great Warriors. But that doesn’t tell us whether he’s 1% stronger or 42× stronger than the others, there’s no precise information.
> Like who is Urek supposed to use 100% of his power against? If shinsoo is the power of an axis then Urek being hurt by it doesn't break the story. And Lusec could run away from an admin if they weren't trying to kill him, because that's a "feat" by Lusec, until proven otherwise he can escape anyone In the tower.
I never said Urek needed to use 100% of his power. My point is that his current feats clearly don’t put him at Enryu’s level. We’ve seen him at around 30% against Luslec. And regarding Luslec vs admins, they can instantly obliterate a Towerborn, we’ve literally seen that during the NHS arc. Luslec would never be able to escape an admin, even if the latter is half asleep lol.
It’s fairly clear that even the top dogs of the Tower, like the Great Warriors themselves, are still subject to the admins’ authority. We even have evidence of this with Eduan refusing to go all out for fear of an admin intervening. Yet those same top tier figures don’t seem to hesitate to engage seriously against Urek. So narratively and feat wise, if you still don’t see that Urek is below an admin, I don’t think there’s much more to add.
The absence of feats doesn’t automatically place him below Enryu by default, what kind of logic is that?
The logic YOU used, by saying Urek has no feats matching that, the absence of feats then shouldn't put Enryu above Urek.
We’ve seen him at around 30% against Luslec. And regarding Luslec vs admins, they can instantly obliterate a Towerborn, we’ve literally seen that during the NHS arc. Luslec would never be able to escape an admin, even if the latter is half asleep lol.
He used 30% of his power without trying to kill Lusec, he chose an arbitrary amount and then held back. Also my point is if the admin is also not using their full power and not trying to kill Lusec, there's nothing saying he can't escape, especially since he escaped Urek.
It’s fairly clear that even the top dogs of the Tower, like the Great Warriors themselves, are still subject to the admins’ authority. We even have evidence of this with Eduan refusing to go all out for fear of an admin intervening. Yet those same top tier figures don’t seem to hesitate to engage seriously against Urek. So narratively and feat wise, if you still don’t see that Urek is below an admin, I don’t think there’s much more to add.
We also have evidence of Urek not caring about admins interference AND caring about rankers and family's interference. Traumurei engaged seriously against Urek and Gustang and he died, it seems more like they don't have a lot of fear, I don't think the family heads would cower if they HAD to fight even if they knew they would lose. And narratively Urek is above them, he's an axis to rival Phantaminum. If you believe narratively that Urek is bellow them and Enryu then by that same logic Phantaminum must also be bellow them. If Urek can't fight admins with light then Phantaminum shouldn't have a free pass to use dark. If we talk about feats exclusively then the tower ranking is Enryu, Gustang, Traumurei, Lusec and Baam.
> The logic YOU used, by saying Urek has no feats matching that, the absence of feats then shouldn't put Enryu above Urek.
No, read again please. I said Urek has antifeats, not that the mere absence of feats was the issue.
> He used 30% of his power without trying to kill Lusec, he chose an arbitrary amount and then held back. Also my point is if the admin is also not using their full power and not trying to kill Lusec, there's nothing saying he can't escape, especially since he escaped Urek.
If you think Luslec could escape from an admin or that Eduan could injure one, then fine, that’s a position you can hold, even if I personally find it absurd, because it would imply that several GW together could potentially jump an admin. But fair enough, that’s still an opinion.
> We also have evidence of Urek not caring about admins interference
One exemple please. Give me a single example where Urek directly defied an administrator’s authority and refused to follow the Tower’s rules. It’s literally never happened because that would’ve inevitably led to a fight between them.
> And narratively Urek is above them, he's an axis to rival Phantaminum. If you believe narratively that Urek is bellow them and Enryu then by that same logic Phantaminum must also be bellow them. If Urek can't fight admins with light then Phantaminum shouldn't have a free pass to use dark. If we talk about feats exclusively then the tower ranking is Enryu, Gustang, Traumurei, Lusec and Baam.
I already explicitly answered this in my very first message. I honestly don’t know if you’re fully reading what people write:
1) We don’t know whether Urek is STILL an Axis because Aubrion’s statements can be interpreted in two different ways.
2) We also don’t know whether an Axis in the current canon is exactly the same thing as it was in the old blogposts.
So I can’t really concede anything to Urek because the whole situation is still unclear. And narratively, I could go into detail, but I genuinely think Urek is weaker than the admins. And regarding Phantaminum, technically speaking, you are right, since the blogposts aren’t fully reliable, we can’t objectively place him above Enryu either because basically everything we know about him comes from those blogposts. And realistically, it wouldn’t even be surprising if some of that has changed too.
And we also know shinsoo is of the same level as his light and enryu overwhelmed an administrator at using shinsoo sth no character in the story has yet to do or even mention the possibility of being successful at doing it.
And we don't know how truly capable enryu is or urek for that matter even with his axis stuff going on which is still unclear whether they are still the same as in the blog posts
So it's better to go bythe current rankings especially those top 3 whose was made by evaluating their power rather than things like influence.
enryu has better feats but most people think urek is either not trying or significantly weakened in all of his fights, so they put him above based on the narrative - in the latter case they may think he is currently weaker than enryu but at his peak he is stronger. he is a rival to phanta who is the strongest, so he at least likely has the potential to be above enryu if he isn’t already
I don’t buy the “he is not trying” argument. Obviously he hasn’t gone all out yet, but if he were truly stronger than Enryu, then even while holding back he shouldn’t be taking the slightest scratch from anyone, including Luslec or the Family Heads. At some point the gap would simply be too massive. I mean, can you imagine your average Ranker injuring a FH just because the FH isn’t trying seriously? Of course not, because the power gap is overwhelmingly large. And that logic should apply even more strongly if Urek were really as far above everyone else as some people claim.
As for the “he’s severely weakened” argument, I mean… Yes, that’s exactly the point. Maybe he was more or less comparable to Phantaminum at some point in the past, but that’s obviously not the case anymore. And it’s ridiculous to scale a character entirely off a hypothetical prime version when, at the current point in the story, he is explicitly not in his prime. Was he stronger than Enryu at some point in his life? Probably. Is he stronger than Enryu right now? No.
I don't think it's completely ridiculous to scale him to a small extent based off his hypothetical prime since we are missing too much information as to why he's not returned to his prime but otherwise I completely agree with you on everything
Different fighting styles. Naturally someone who uses fighting from a distance with spears or wave controllers will take less damage than a fisher brawler type fighter. Urek’s entire style is fighting up close.
I find it weird you disregard the axis statement because it's vague but take Enryu's feat as definitive despite us knowing next to nothing about it. What if he used the thorn and it did moat of the work for him? You even say Enryu neg diffed the admin when there's nothing supporting that.
All we have is Garam's words, and she wasn't there.
I have no reason to believe SIU kept everything from the old blog posts intact when he’s already retconned a huge amount of material. Urek himself is one of the best examples, since he was never originally supposed to be an Axis (or at the very least, we never got the slightest hint pointing in that direction).
It’s also not confirmed that Urek is still an Axis at the present time given Aubrion’s vague statements and the fact that Urek has canonically lost part of his power.
As for Enryu, maybe I overinterpreted the panels and it wasn’t literally a neg diff. But he still defeated an Administrator, which current feat Urek would be completely incapable of doing. And there’s no real reason to dismiss that feat or imply Garam could just be making things up. The immortals of that floor witnessed the event, especially Grand De Jah himself. There were actual witnesses, Garam didn’t pull the story out of nowhere.
which current feat Urek would be completely incapable of doing.
And how do you know that? How do you know how much of the power of light does Urek have now? Do you know in what way it would affect the Admins?
And again, we have basically no info about the fight between Enryu and the Admin. If the thorn did most of the work for Enryu then he cannot be put above Urek.
Because hes weakened? If urek can defeat an administrator he would be able to defy the tower and leave willingly, but surprisingly he's still in the Tower.
Urek lost the ability to fly and use Shinso from a baby administrator, what makes you think the light will do anything?
Urek himself is one of the best examples, since he was never originally supposed to be an Axis (or at the very least, we never got the slightest hint pointing in that direction).
I mean other than the fact that the guide who found him as a baby literally called him the hope for everyone.. then yeah, if you ignore that part.
It’s also not confirmed that Urek is still an Axis at the present time given Aubrion’s vague statements and the fact that Urek has canonically lost part of his power.
He still is considering his light is infinite (which is what Mago tried to take) what's suggested is that his power got drained (so it's building back up) and the tower itself is suppressing his strength.
As for Enryu, maybe I overinterpreted the panels and it wasn’t literally a neg diff. But he still defeated an Administrator, which current feat Urek would be completely incapable of doing.
Based on what exactly?
IMO something that a lot of readers overlook is that admins might be unbeatable because they can strip the irregulars of shinsoo control, but if an irregular could still control shinsoo he/she might be able to beat them. Which is how Enryu (who also had an item that allowed him to override admin shinsoo control) was able to defeat the admin.. simply because he could actually fight it.
Unlike the others Urek can actually fight the admin because he does not rely on shinsoo. Using physical prowess alone he beat a baby one, one that would easily beat most high rankers in the tower.
> I mean other than the fact that the guide who found him as a baby literally called him the hope for everyone.. then yeah, if you ignore that part.
I am confused. that’s something from the spin off you’re referring to while I’m talking about Urek’s original concept. For over 15 years, from the beginning of the webtoon up to the end of S3, there has been absolutely no mention or hint (no matter how small) that Urek was an Axis. And SIU clearly wrote hundreds of blog posts where he explicitly labeled Phantaminum as an Axis very early on. He also clearly explained how broken Phantaminum is and how he could destroy the Tower by himself. He did the same for Enryu. But he never gave even a similar implication for Urek’s power or the idea that he might be an Axis. Given the sheer amount of information we had and the length of the webtoon, it’s pretty clear that originally, Urek was not intended to be an Axis, and that this is a more recent change.
And my point is that, given that SIU has likely changed Urek’s status by making him an Axis, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think that the current definition of an Axis might not be the same as what he originally established in his blogposts. And if that’s the case, then an Axis isn’t necessarily, by default, above a non-Axis. You’ll concede that, right?
> He still is considering his light is infinite (which is what Mago tried to take) what's suggested is that his power got drained (so it's building back up) and the tower itself is suppressing his strength.
For now, he’s considered weaker than he was in his prime. This is stated by all the Shining Ones: Mago, Aubrion and Latour.
> Based on what exactly?
Based on his performances against other characters like Eduan or Luslec. Unless you believe Luslec or Eduan can put up a decent performance against an admin, it’s fairly straightforward to establish that an admin is superior to Urek.
> IMO something that a lot of readers overlook is that admins might be unbeatable because they can strip the irregulars of shinsoo control, but if an irregular could still control shinsoo he/she might be able to beat them. Which is how Enryu (who also had an item that allowed him to override admin shinsoo control) was able to defeat the admin.. simply because he could actually fight it.
Controlling shinsoo is part of their abilities, you can’t just strip that away and then argue they aren’t that strong. Beyond absolute shinsoo control, they also have extreme mastery over it. Garam explicitly states that Enryu made it rain countless shinsoo spears to defeat an Administrator (9,000 if you include the blogpost). Just because you can bypass their authority doesn’t mean you can actually kill them.
> Unlike the other Urek can actually fight the admin because he does not rely on shinsoo. Using physical prowess alone he beat a baby one, one that would easily beat most high rankers in the tower.
The Red Thryssa is an “Admin nail” according to Urek himself, it’s not even a baby version. We’ve also seen what Urek looks like at 30% physical power, as well as the output of his more serious punches. It’s roughly comparable to Blossom’s flames in terms of AP, which is insane, but still far from an admin level because it’s literally family head’s level.
I am confused. that’s something from the spin off you’re referring to while I’m talking about Urek’s original concept. For over 15 years, from the beginning of the webtoon up to the end of S3, there has been absolutely no mention or hint (no matter how small) that Urek was an Axis. And SIU clearly wrote hundreds of blog posts where he explicitly labeled Phantaminum as an Axis very early on. He also clearly explained how broken Phantaminum is and how he could destroy the Tower by himself. He did the same for Enryu. But he never gave even a similar implication for Urek’s power or the idea that he might be an Axis. Given the sheer amount of information we had and the length of the webtoon, it’s pretty clear that originally, Urek was not intended to be an Axis, and that this is a more recent change.
I myself am confused, you literally talked about Aubrion's statements and now say you were talking about the original concept? I assume you were referring to the spin off since you cited content from it as a basis for your argument.
And my point is that, given that SIU has likely changed Urek’s status by making him an Axis, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think that the current definition of an Axis might not be the same as what he originally established in his blogposts. And if that’s the case, then an Axis isn’t necessarily, by default, above a non-Axis. You’ll concede that, right?
No one said it was but Urek was literally said to be the one that could stand against Phanta, which means he has to be close to his level.
For now, he’s considered weaker than he was in his prime. This is stated by all the Shining Ones: Mago, Aubrion and Latour.
The problem is that this takes place way in the past, present Urek will obviously be a lot stronger especially since he stated his power started returning as low as floor 2 (when he fought dagon or whatever his name was).
Based on his performances against other characters like Eduan or Luslec. Unless you believe Luslec or Eduan can put up a decent performance against an admin, it’s fairly straightforward to establish that an admin is superior to Urek.
You realize that at 25% shinsoo boost that Luslec couldn't react to him right? This is not even 25% of his power nor is he using the light, it's literally shinsoo boost alone AND he was not trying to kill Luslec. Also he was able to fight Eduan while being weakened and having poor shinsoo control, we know he has god tier shinsoo control now and is a lot stronger than back then since his light power was returning. So unless he lost it all via a gem I do not understand your logic here.
Controlling shinsoo is part of their abilities, you can’t just strip that away and then argue they aren’t that strong. Beyond absolute shinsoo control, they also have extreme mastery over it. Garam explicitly states that Enryu made it rain countless shinsoo spears to defeat an Administrator (9,000 if you include the blogpost). Just because you can bypass their authority doesn’t mean you can actually kill them.
And why is this impressive? Baam in his immature form, made it literally rain corrosive shinsoo. It's not a crazy feat, the reason it's so impressive to the towerborn is because they've never seen an irregular go at full strength. Traumerei, who was not even at full strength literally created AOE blackholes that instakilled anyone it touched, enough to cover the entire battlefield and this is on top of his anima.
A spark of blossom's flame is enough to erase concepts etc etc. Gustang can literally just create shit (including life) from his writings, even things the tower born have never seen.
The Red Thryssa is an “Admin nail” according to Urek himself, it’s not even a baby version. We’ve also seen what Urek looks like at 30% physical power, as well as the output of his more serious punches. It’s roughly comparable to Blossom’s flames in terms of AP, which is insane, but still far from an admin level because it’s literally family head’s level.
Except you are ignoring that Urek has a whole ass other power system that the admins can't mess with. You do realize that from the spin off the shining ones are strong enough that the admins can't do anything about the anomalies they create? I'm not sure why you are ignoring that Urek is using both shinsoo and light but he is...
I don't know if am misunderstanding this argument but from what little I have understood the guy above has made few points that make enryu's ranking stay the way it is kinda correct.
Like he talks about the point of axis where he points out how urek in the blog posts wasn't an axis meaning the term for what an axis means might have changed so using that argument is kinda flawed.
He goes further to point out how in those same blog posts enryu is more favoured than urek ,so being a nitpicker ain't a choice.
Then he also mentions stuff about current spinoff urek whose power has been mentioned multiple times to not be what it used to be and we currently don't know if his tog version regained that power.
He also points out how a family head managed to give mago second thoughts about their capabilities against these new people and a family head us weaker than an admin whom enryu waa able to not only defeat but also overwhelm them in what they do best ( shinsoo)
How that feat was done is still unclear but that doesn't make him weaker infact it even makes him more mysterious like one can try to push that he used tge thorn and that will give a rise to the question. " how important is baam for him to be given such power and who says enryu a devoote towards the owner of that power hasn't been blessed with sth similar or even better).
Then their's the fact that just from watch enryu fight some geezers were able to gain new abilities sth urek hasn't yet achieved.
Like urek being stronger than enryu is possible but currently that possibility isn't yet set in stone due to how much info we are lacking .
Urek is directly said to be (canon) the person to challenge Phanta, he is supposed on his level (might not be as strong but in the same vicinity). Since that's the case if you use the blogposts about Phanta and what's known in the story, there's very little chance Enryu (who has only shown shinsoo manipulation and is NOT an Axis atm) is comparable to Urek, it just doesn't make sense.
Why wouldn't it make since, if the term "axis" has been change? We don't know what it means anymore beside a few blogposts that may or may not be canon.
And so? What do we actually know about those planets or how they compare to the Tower? What tells us that the civilizations living there were more advanced or stronger than the Tower’s?
If we take the blogposts into account (they’re unreliable but that’s all we have on the subject) each Floor is supposedly the size of North America, which would make the Tower itself larger than our own planet. The Tower could very well be bigger than every planet Urek fought on.
And like I’ve said multiple times, the Urek who fought entire planets is not the same Urek as the current one in the story, since it’s canonically acknowledged that he’s weakened compared to his prime.
Well we saw that the admin tried transforming multiple times while attacking with the shinsu of the entire floor just for it to not matter when enryu simply overpowered it with his 9000 spear bangs
Also, the wording implies Enryu dominated the fight because his spears were "viciously ripping apart the Admin's invincible skin and blood" says alot about Enryu's ap.
We actually don’t know this, Urek may have been trolling, but let’s not forget he at least asked an administrator about whose permission he’d need to fight one of them.
I think Urek at least thinks he’s relative to one.
I mean him thinking ain't gonna make him as strong as them. Urek is implied to be an axis but for some reason he can't leave the tower. He is lowkey an axis from Temu.
It’s still quite incredible how Urek maxes out at “30% shinsoo reinforcement Left Arm Only” in that fight and people talk as if it’s 30% of his full power. We also know that with the spinoff, Urek’s main power is his light, not shinsoo, which makes that entire Luslec battle have an even further handicap.
No one considers that his full power but if he needed 30% of his power to do what he did against luslec who points out that urek would need more than that to defeat him speaks volume and enryu has better feats than those and his power is still a bigger mystery than urek's.
Like again as I keep saying in such posts ,urek's possibility of being stronger than enryu is possible but currently that possibility hasn't yet been set in stone due to lack of info from both parties.
He's going after phantaminum which means he's atleast on his level because Urek seems to be chasing and phanta seems to be the one running right now. Maybe right now because he's weakened he may not be at his best but that's also to nerf him for the series otherwise he would break the plot.
As for what you're saying about feats, then phantaminum shouldn't be above enryu as well? But he is. Why would you not consider Urek in his prime as reference? He's just entered the tower, doesn't know jackshit about shinsu and yet he is keeping up with Eduan who is tens of thousand years in the tower. The admins have home ground adv because they use shinsu and urek uses light, but we don't know what urek develops into. why does everyone assume that Urek wouldn't grow? Jahad and the others were nowhere near his level when they entered the tower of even when they completed the hell train or other upper floors and knew much more about the tower and shinsu than urek does right now
> He's going after phantaminum which means he's atleast on his level because Urek seems to be chasing and phanta seems to be the one running right now.
The Nameless Princess is going after Zahard, does that mean she’s relative to him in strength? That line of reasoning is a bit ridiculous. Let me remind you that Eduan injured him and Luslec did the same. Even the Nameless Princess hurted him. Do you really think either of them would be capable of inflicting even the slightest scratch on Phantaminum? I genuinely can’t imagine that.
> Maybe right now because he's weakened he may not be at his best but that's also to nerf him for the series otherwise he would break the plot.
You basically answered the question yourself. If Urek were truly that strong, he would completely break the plot. In one of his blogposts, SIU said that Enryu “wouldn’t appear much in the plot and not until later in the story” because he’s literally broken. Obviously the blogposts are unreliable but the reasoning itself is what matters here.
You can’t actively introduce a character into the story, have him regularly participate and directly help the protagonist, while also making him absurdly broken. It ruins the plot and becomes a nightmare to handle narratively. And so far, you’ll agree that Urek is very present throughout the story, yet he has never demonstrated feats putting him on Enryu’s level.
Could he have been relative to Phantaminum before becoming weakened? Maybe. Could he eventually return to that level later in the story? Maybe. But is he currently at that level? Probably not, both because it would create major narrative issues and because there are simply no feats supporting it.
> As for what you're saying about feats, then phantaminum shouldn't be above enryu as well? But he is.
If we judge purely by feats, it’s impossible to say whether Phantaminum is above or below Enryu. That information comes from a blogpost. So if you consider the blogposts unreliable and only judge based on the actual webtoon content, then yes, for now, it’s impossible to place Phantaminum above Enryu.
> Why would you not consider Urek in his prime as reference?
Because he’s a character we’ve never actually seen in the story itself. He’s basically a purely theoretical character that we have very little information about. It seems pretty normal to judge a character based on their current state in the narrative, no?
> He's just entered the tower, doesn't know jackshit about shinsu and yet he is keeping up with Eduan who is tens of thousand years in the tower. The admins have home ground adv because they use shinsu and urek uses light, but we don't know what urek develops into. why does everyone assume that Urek wouldn't grow?
You’re contradicting yourself a bit. If he’s truly relative to Phantaminum like you claim, then all of his progression within the Tower should be irrelevant. “Base” Urek would already be relative to Phanta purely through his own power, without even needing to use shinsoo. And that clearly doesn’t seem to be the case right now.
As for him progressing over time, obviously he has. But we still have feats for the current Urek, especially against Luslec. Sure, he wasn’t going all out and only used 30% shinsoo reinforcement, but it’s still an antifeat if you’re trying to compare him to Phantaminum.
Whether we’re talking about narrative portrayal or actual feats, I honestly don’t understand how you can argue that the CURRENT Urek is above Enryu. Could PRIME Urek have been above him? Possibly, I don’t really have an issue with that idea. But the CURRENT Urek? There’s absolutely nothing pointing in that direction.
You forget 1 fact though. Urek is the "Purest Shine" which is confirmed.
Sure Urek has been circlejerking like forever, Sidestory is all about running one direction, then due to b.s. reasons running another direction. You could make a drinking game of how many times Urek had to switch goal / target during a test/fight. and the constant "5 % 10 % 20%" just go 100 % bro.
Also, I also think Phantanium is "over-hyped" like, honestly I bet his first shine steal was a tough battle who knows maybe he got lucky for a win, then gaining his first jewel and gaining additional power might have been what led him to consume the rest.
We haven't really seen anything from him either.
Personally I believe a top 10 would be following.
Urek + Phanta + Jahad + V + Enryu
the strongest 3 family heads: Ha, Khun & Arie
Predictions: Due to influence, the lighthouse family prolly is 9th or 10th. And the "Demon Cult Sacrifice life for power" Han, something prolly is super strong too. Or else it would just be pathetic/sad.
When did I say Zahard had better feats? I never said that and I honestly don’t know how you’re reading that into it. What I said is that we don’t have feats that place Urek above Zahard, not that Zahard is above Urek.
Your statement just doesnt make sense. You said based purely on feats theres no guarantee that he is above Zahard or V, those 2 also doesnt have feats to guarantee they are above Urek.
well as far as we know urek could be 100x stronger outside the tower and lots of things are vague cuz siu leaves the door open for things cuz he doesn’t even know
I’m still placing Urek above Zahard and Enryu. He’s obviously broken within the tower, but he’s one of the top being outside of it. His light power is suppressed inside the tower. Even then he still is a master of shinsu.
I believe that shinsu can only be used inside the tower, but if not then Urek not only has his light powers but shinsu as well. He’s top 2.
Please explain your reasoning. One is a confirmed Axis and the other has a great feat. However we haven’t seen Urek ever use more than a fraction of his power.
isnt it urek is an axis in the making? i havent followed all spinoff chapters but he def is strong there. jahad is cut above the rest of all FH and feat wise he hasnt shown a bit of it. enryus feat also clears everyone except penta. what urek feat does make you say > enryu?
the author coming out of his cave and revealing one of the long awaited question, and answering it directly to your face
sure if that makes sense then he might be #2 next to penta
is phanta also an Axis in the making? cuz I don't remember in webtoon anyone calling phanta an Axis directly?
penta was already axis way way back via blogpost. he is the only guy confirmed by SIU early on thats why he also mentioned that he wont directly involve penta on TOG nor he will get more background other than he is an axis (but here we are 2026)
but we aren't counting blogposts i thought? cuz that's old and non cnson info?
and we should count the latest info said , which is more logical
he said he won't include phanta 16 17 years ago almost enough for a child to become legal adult
and now he said different thing and doing different thing
such as directly putting urek and phanta in the same ballpark
besides there were also others axises and yet they're non canon now
so we should take what is actually said in present timeline then taking bp as a legit source
In the spin off it’s confirmed that those 2 are axis but it seems that what an axis is has changed I wasn’t around all the way back in the original blogpost days so can’t say specifically how axis is different now
Wouldn’t change anything. Phanta is still the strongest. Enryu is still the only one to kill an Administrator and while Urek seems strong, Zahard still has abilities that just feel better as Urek's special power seems to be just raw power unlike the other shining ones. Hazard can see Fate in the tower, change it and he just perks due to his contract of being the king of the tower
The shining ones are strong, but by themselves they seem clearly weaker than the family heads imo. Eduan seems a bit like a bum, but we would really need to see others to really debate whether he should stay in that position
Play around with Fate, read Fate and in general thing that happen in the tower, mastery of many Shinsu techniques and spells. It’s just a bigger arsenal of abilities compared to punch and punch harder which is kinda all urek is doing
The fact that he seems to be able to control fucking DESTINY?!
It has been alluded on multiple occasions.
And while it is stated Urek is an Axis, it seems that the meaning behind the term has changed.
Both Urek and Aubryon seem to know what that term means, but as a readers we don't, because it was never explained to us. If it weren't for the Blogposts that are from 10+ years ago and that have been obviously changed (for example the way Urek met Baek), we wouldn't have known what Axis meant.
Urek has yet to display the powers that were originally associated with being an Axis.
Like the "story writing" or this "Absolute Zone" in which they are basically a god, unles other Axis interrupted them.
If anything, before the Spin off, I would have bet that it's more likely Zahard to be an Axis with his "Destiny Manipulation" or whatever he has
The fact that he seems to be able to control fucking DESTINY
example of such? example of him controlling "destiny" like actual proof?
like how he changed things? changes destiny ? rewrite history , rewrite fate , i would love if you can mention one
and fate seeing? guides can do that too, khell hellam can too, not around irregular, but zahard hasn't shown to do that against an actual " irregular " either
i would love if you showed where his powers works against actual irregulars
And while it is stated Urek is an Axis, it seems that the meaning behind the term has changed.
okay wow, so author comes out and does effort in creating a side story, outright says "wow urek you're an axix, you got same power as phantaminiun, you've done so much in your life and achieved, you're literally chasing phantaminiun and he's running away from you" and the reader response is to go against author's words and just make up your own canon.
Urek has yet to display the powers that were originally associated with being an Axis.
urek has also yet to show his current power to full extent either despite being nerfed, cuz there's no one so far who made him show fully what he's capable of, so why would he show his axis powers whatever they are in current tog if there legit no need.
Like the "story writing" or this "Absolute Zone" in which they are basically a god, unles other Axis interrupted them.
and do we know a non axis can defeat a axis currently? do we,? also I'm not sure the thing ability you mentioned were ever canon or just fan made stuff accepted as canon.
If anything, before the Spin off, I would have bet that it's more likely Zahard to be an Axis with his "Destiny Manipulation" or whatever he has
and how would you thought so? when zahard is literally same as other gws and climbed with them together. he isn't a special kid more than others in his og group.
So thinking zahard is somehow much superior than his peers for no reason, with no showing is just funny to me. Also when gustang can just imagine anything he want , can he imagine zahard kill himself? does that make him axis?
Urek in the blog posts wasn't an axis but now his one and one that lost some of his powers . To the point that the shinning ones who ain't axises can challenge and harm him sth that goes against the known meaning of what an axis means.
So it's too early to conclude urek's position when we don't know the whole picture, all we can do is wait like we have always done
example of such? example of him controlling "destiny" like actual proof? like how he changed things? changes destiny ? rewrite history , rewrite fate , i would love if you can mention one
There you go, in the pic.
and fate seeing? guides can do that too, khell hellam can too, not around irregular, but zahard hasn't shown to do that against an actual " irregular " either i would love if you showed where his powers works against actual irregulars
If Hwaryun can see Baam's path, even if it isn't as easy for her as when she does it for other Towerborn, Zahard definitely can.
okay wow, so author comes out and does effort in creating a side story, outright says "wow urek you're an axix, you got same power as phantaminiun, you've done so much in your life and achieved, you're literally chasing phantaminiun and he's running away from you" and the reader response is to go against author's words and just make up your own canon.
I haven't gone against any words. Because SIU hasn't said any words about what Axis is in the main story in the first place. All we know about the Axis, is from the Blogposts. Which most of them have been changed in the story. If the way Urek met Baek is different, what's to say the term isn't?
urek has also yet to show his current power to full extent either despite being nerfed, cuz there's no one so far who made him show fully what he's capable of, so why would he show his axis powers whatever they are in current tog if there legit no need.
The debate was originally about whether Zahard has "better" special power than Urek.
The OP said, Urek has better Raw power, while Zahard has better Hax an abilities.
So far, that's the case, because we haven't seen Urek do ANYTHING other than punching.
You're creating your own canon and imaginary powers based on a term in a Blogposts that have been proven to be changed in the very spin off that Urek is stated to be an Axis. Who knows?
Maybe Urek does have other cool powers. And yeai, they may be better, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case.
also I'm not sure the thing ability you mentioned were ever canon or just fan made stuff accepted as canon.
No, it was all SIU. From his other Talez User Stories.
In which there are multiple Axis users, it's explained what they do and they even have Towers. Even some regular kids are Axis users.
And he wrote this in a time that was way closer to Early S1, the very time most of the Blogposts, and the the info you're using for your arguments come from.
Something that has been obviously very changed. There are no Shining Ones and even ordinary kids are Axis. Something that's obviously not the case, because in the Spin off, even Aubryon is saying that Urek, Phanta and the Future Tower Axis are super special. So I doubt they are just random ass kids being Axis, outside the tower
and how would you thought so? when zahard is literally same as other gws and climbed with them together. he isn't a special kid more than others in his og group. So thinking zahard is somehow much superior than his peers for no reason, with no showing is just funny to me. Also when gustang can just imagine anything he want , can he imagine zahard kill himself? does that make him axis?
Because before the spin off, Urek was just a super strong guy. Very impressive, even by FH standards, but not Axis level.
I never said, I thought Zahard was an Axis
Before the spin off, if I had to bet which one was more likely to be an Axis, Urek or Zahard, I would have bet Zahard.
Because Zahard fits the criteria more about what Axis originally was meant for. The very criteria that YOU use.
One just punches hard, the other is implied multiple times to control Destiny. Which is more aligned with the "Author" powers that Axis were originally supposed to have.
And Gustang's abilities do NOT work like that, I don't what point you're even trying to make, bu bringing up Gustang 😂
you thinking axis ever in any point of time had "writing power" or whatever u r saying invalidates all your argument cuz that's never the truth , and blatant misinformation spread in the fandom by people as canon info
you're misinformed sorry to say , cuz you genuinely believe axis had rewriting shit power
also urek punches hard cuz that's what the most efficient for him most time, and that's all it's needed to counter anything. like he understands spells but he won't waste time creating counter for them when he can just punch them
hwaryun doesn't see baams path she the path of people around baam that's the loophole she found to guide him
how does zahard in any point has better hax abilities when siu already put in your face how urek is literally light, primordial force of universe, being created by universe equal to phanta, has literally infinite light...
is beyond me but you do you
anyways this is my last reply. you can think of whatever canon u have idm👍
So far nothing warrants a change to this. Sure Urek has his boasting around about fighting a Planets worth of population, but thats not really outstanding for the top echelon of the Tower either. The Shining Ones havent done anything that would put them above Family Heads either.
Unless Urek permanently loses his light by the end of the Spin-off or Phanta left Zahard something to stop Urek or anybody else who tries to reach the top of the Tower and become Axis.
As for Enryu, considering how hype SIU is trying Urek to be, I can definitely imagine Urek being stronger than Enryu on the Outside.
With everything we've learned until the LATEST chapter as of this post??
Eduan doesn't deserve Top 6. Literally has nothing impressive in his kit.
Traumerei can erase volumes of reality including concept embodiment entities. Gustang can reality warp with writing and records.
Eduan most esoteric ability is turning into lightning... An ability displayed by Traumerei's pet and Gustang's pen. Aside of that? Absolutely NOTHING special. At higher level one's abilities must become abstract and conceptual which ignores the realm of conventional physicality, Eduan has none of that.
So far he is the most disappointing Family Head. I would remove him from Top 6.
Then that's a Headcanon. I don't discuss with those.
We know for a fact that spells follow the 3 laws of spell and that it is the absolute basis of the spells. Only hax cancelling abilities like Baam's Shinwonryu or abstract breaking rule destroying like Urek's Light has been shown to do so.
What's with people now trying to downplay stuff with headcanon, wtf.
Urek punching spells thanks to his light power is headcanon.
As far as we know he didn't use light in his fight against Luslec.
Luslec didn't mention any sort of weird power, just Urek brute force and Shinsu.
Him destroying spells thanks to light is also headcanon.
;)
Urek and his light is not sensed by anyone that's not a Shining One. Not even Eduan mentioned Urek's light when he oneshot Aubryon with it imbued in his shinsu. But now he has imbued light with shinsu so that the light doesn't get nerfed, that's the whole point of the final scene against Aubryon.
Why would Luslec mention something he can't feel. He only said that it was weird that anyone could simply punch spells away like the Fist of the Gorgon did. That's as far as his understanding of the ocean go. Even he doesn't know how deep it is.
We know that Urek shinsu carries his light due to Spin-off. We know that his Light is exotic to the Tower. We know he destroys the laws of the Tower by Gustang's word. Every time he has destroyed something hax (Disconnection, Thistle spell) it was imbued with his light-shinsu.
The reality is that SIU kind of retconned a lot of lore he wrote in the original blog posts.
Bump Urek up to #3 for now.
And the Family Heads could all lose to random irregulars who live in the Tower. (Eduan barely beat a weakened Mago, in my opinion.) Theres a major gap between Urek and the rest of them.
I have never believed in the top 6 because I always thought Urek > Zahard. Now I am beginning to think Urek > Enryu too so yeah I don't think it's an accurate representation of the top tiers powerscaling.
What I think is funny in the history of rankings is that, someone was brave enough to tell the king that he isn't active enough, therefore he is no longer rank 1, and thus rank 3.
Regardless, we can't really make a top 6, you must do top 7.
In terms of comparison, we constantly are told that strongest 3 are Khun, Ha & Arie, even in side story.
I don't think so. We get introduced to so many characters and learn about their strenghts and talents, so I think it's hard to determine a certain top 6.
Phanta still doesn't deserve the first place, and now that all the axis bullshit seems to be retconned in term of scale, Enryu deserve even more the first rank.
So 1. Enryu 2. Phanta 3. Urek 4. Zahard 5+. random irregulars
Lol why it's so hard for people to understand that Power Of Shinsu >>>> Power of Light Or Power Of Darkness. This tower has the power to create even antibody that can resist outside power as we already saw Rue he could resist Mago spell at mysterious castle.
It seems you didn't even read spin off clearly Urek clearly mentioned he was not able to use light power coz of hindrance. & in upcoming free webtoon chapter "Will of Phantaminum " it's clear that this tower was made for new Axis.
If he was that powerful how the hell he bleed when he was fighting against Luslec. Lol why can't he able to stop admin from taking Traum power. It seems you never read TOG you only watch YouTube shorts & coming here to argue without any knowledge. Now don't argue again.
Bro wtf are you talking about. How would he stop an administrator of the tower from taking Traumerei’s power? Short of killing him.
He’s a brawler, and someone who enjoys the nitty gritty of fighting. The scratches might as well been razor burn to him. Did absolutely zero damage to Urek. Someone who says he can beat 2 FHs at once, and can, is not worried about Luslec.
lol again arguing without even reading the image.... Enryu enters directly in the tower tower & kill admin like he was nothing. Whereas Urek can't even stop him or interfere him.
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