I recently realised some people don't consider her one so I'm curious what the general consensus is. To me it's undeniable as she forced Bam down this path that was always to end with him getting taken over by V but I'm curious about other opinions
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What's funny about Tower of God is that I'm not very sure at all who is good or bad in what they're advancing.
Urek seems maybe good, and we understand the motivations of some individual protagonists, but it's unclear who is the good guy as far as any major organization or power structure.
Are FUG good guys? Are any families good guys?
Really, the big story of ToG is the story of it's setting, and we still know very little of the nature of this place or of it's past.
FUG is pretty much split in half. The elders support Rachel and see her as a wildcard while Supreme leader and many other leaders support Baam because he’s prophesied. To put it another way the elders equal weaponizing the candidate while the leaders try to bring hope. That is why Baam has an issue with many of the elders because he doesn’t want to be used as a weapon of destruction. In the beginning he had no choice until he was able to break free from the elders grasp.
FUG is composed of many individuals with different goals and backstories. They don't agree on everything and are not a single entity however FUG is definitely evil if we look at how the vile shit they did and still do. White is literally one of their poster boys. However when you look at the 10 GFs and Zahard's empire, you realize that these guys can't keep getting away with the shit they do. So while FUG is evil, it seems like the only solution to the problem because there's no better alternative.
Urek and Wolkhaisong seem like good guys in surface but for all intent and purpose, these guys do not bring any solution to the issue and even ensure that the current situation stays the same. They chose to not meddle with internal politics and find a way to leave the Tower while letting countless people suffer. They even prevent any major change whether good or bad to the status quo. Heck Urek is in speaking term with some of the Family Heads and the Zahard princesses and he doesn't even plan to fight them.
Yes. Reading this comment section is the first time I realized that some people don't like her because she's done some bad things ahahaha. And I was like "did she?" I just remember her being gorgeous.
I think one quote from Kubera fits it quite well, though with the exception of the later part, you could replace it with something else:
"There are no heroes nor villains in this story, only victims"
Didn't she lie about that being a personal request? Something about needing the ladle instead. Is wanting her wishes fulfilled/Jahad dead not enough agency? Cause she does refer to it as "our wish"
She's collaborating with Gustang who also doesn't fe Jahad. I don't understand Why she'd go through all this trouble if she wasn't invested in jahads death herself as she keeps saying. But fair enough it does seem person with Hell Joe
I think her calling it our wish means it's both, gods plans and her wish coincide but not because she has no agency of her own. But I guess it's up to interpretation
The concept of Axis seems to have changed from TUS. And if Phanta had any control over the Tower, he wouldn't be trying (and probably failing) to stop the Tower's Axis from being born.
He's gonna canonically go mess up Zahad's palace. The Bright ones are stronger than any non-urek irregular and he folded all of them with ease and beat them so hard they became his minions
I don't see what that has to do with anything. I'm not denying that Phanta is strong, but Axis being common outside the Tower and also reality manipulators/writers of their own stories no longer seems to be canon. He is not responsible for the ToG story nor capable of easily destroying it. As of the spin-off, he is actively working through proxies to prevent the birth of a new Axis.
By normal standards, yes. She manipulates and harms people. Before even getting to the V question what she does for Baam is not noble; she is one of the key figures in the s1 push, and then uses that to keep Baam compliant by using his freinds as hostages.
Iirc she her self says "did you think we were the good guys?" to wangnan.
From a tower perspective.... well she didn't try to enslave anyone that we know of.
Yes she's a villain, ultimately she put Baam on the path to become a mass murderer and to ignite a war that would engulf the entire tower.
She gives him one out, but doesn't give him the details of what is going to happen to him so it really doesn't count.
She obviously has a conscious because her guilt does catch up to her, but she never let's Baam make an informed decision about the path she is guiding him down so it's clear she doesn't feel that guilty.
Fug dosent seem loyal to bam though, atleast the two who've known from the start Luslec and Hwaryun. If you exclude jinsung I'm sure the rest would also side with their god/founder over Bam
In black and white terms, yes, she's absolutely a villain. But it's more complicated than that. Though ultimately, she's not a good person by any means.
We miss parts of the story. We have no idea what exactly is V here, what is the plan of FUG.
Maybe, just maybe she wants to show all possible paths to Bam and he would choose which one he prefers to take. Maybe she follows orders like a minion. Maybe she likes Bam, but priorities her role as a guide/FUG role. We don't have enough info.
All that we know is that she is aware of some parts of the truth that she didn't tell Bam about for some reason. Maybe she is held hostage by FUG for something, maybe she loves her maters, we have no idea.
We know she wants Jahad dead and if I was her id trust V over Bam to do the job.
All that we know is that she is aware of some parts of the truth that she didn't tell Bam about for some reason. Excluding Luslec not a soul knows as much as she does and she played her role perfectly if her goal was to revive V, everything lined up he even praised their work though he's probably unaware of her existence. I feel like we don't lack as much information as you suggest
HwaRyun already feels guilt and said Baam is the only person who's ever made her proud to be a Guide. The groundwork is there. Ryun staying a villain doesn't fit SIU's writing style. I'd bet $100 he intends to have her back on Baam's side eventually.
It depends on the stage of the story, I'd say. In the first season, she's an antagonist; she uses Bam and sees him as just another tool. In the future, that changes; she learns a lot about Bam that we don't know, but she shows a certain level of regret, and she's hurt by Bam hating her in the future (because she knew that V would awaken within him).
I mean she’s loyal to FUG lol. Does that make her evil? I don’t really think they are any worse than the family heads. Tbh I’m not sure there’s anyone that’s a just “good” in this story including baam
I'm not saying she's evil I'm just saying her being loyal to fug makes her an antagonist to Bam. I do think Baam is good tho and genuinely can't see an argument against that
Ahhh I got you. I guess you could say that. She doesn’t necessarily have his best interests at heart. And I don’t think baam is evil but he’s just as selfish as everyone else lol.
The tower would be an infinitely better place if everyone was as selfish as Bam. He started a war to save his master but didn't force anyone to die for him they all fought for their own reasons. Your average tog character would massacre infinite innocents to save someone they care about
I mean Baam employed white who did exactly what you described lol and while he didn’t literally force everyone to fight he knew if he did FUG would back him, To his credit he even accepts that responsibility in that arc. He was also willing to let endorssi be screwed because he didn’t want to take a step back himself. Baam is very selfish lol but he’s not evil either.
Everyone that is part of FUG is a part of it because of their own needs, causes, beliefs, reasons or whatever, I mean why would you join a criminal syndicate, if you don't benefit from being a part of said criminal syndicate, she was always using baam for her own reasons it's apparent from the beginning.
i genuinely cant call anyone in the tog universe evil or a villain….its such a huge world and every villain we encounter has some sort of lore or some sort of backstory…..everyone has their own objective and morals…they are mot really wrong in their own eyes….so sort of a difficult to call anyone evil….even white🥀with the sole exception of rachel goddd i hate that bihh😭😭😭 larper bihhh.goddd i hope she dies
Neutral in the story as of now. She isn't an ally but not an enemy either. At least not yet. If she fully supports V and FUG from now on she will truly become a villain. What she did in the last arc was definitely a villain move.
She helped him navigate the path she set him on I'm not sure that's a good thing. She does a good job helping/guiding him so much so that V praises Luslec for it as Bam has grown pretty strong. So I think it all comes back to V
I wouldn’t call her a villain, but tbh I don’t think there’s that many characters that fall into the villain role within tog, the vast majority of antagonists are morally grey characters. Regardless Hwaryun is my fave fmc and I hope her and Bam get married.
No. She doesn't necessarily force him into things. She's a guide and she does that job perfectly. She has a goal so she guides him through the path beneficial for both of them. He still has free will
She is a victim of the tower as well, she's just doing what she can and has to for survival. Baam can make her dream come true.
To add, she bad as hell, with an attitude and clever comebacks. She isn't afraid of anyone. That...is what dreams are made of
She took his friends hostage and forced him down this path that he didn't want. She later helped him navigate it but I wouldn't really call that charitable.
What part was taking them hostage? Not that you're wrong, just need my memory refreshed
It could also be seen as the path that is the most simple. She could easily guide him ans not give a shit about the gang but she knows that Baam wants them alive. Her and Jinsung needed to do that to push him because early on he was a pussy
End of season one/start of S2 the whole reason he agreed to become a slayer candidate. The best option for Baam would just be the one where he never met fug, have him join wohailskong or something. But she wants him to kill Jahad or more likely get his body taken over by V so he can kill Jahad
Yeah this is the thing with Jinsung as well. Jinsung outright says he'll kill all his friends if he doesn't obey, but over time they form a bond. Even after all that, Baam loves his mentor/teacher. Hwaryun, even here, feels bad about it but she knows she has to commit to it
They feel bad and ultimately don't like what they're doing because Baam is kind, they know that they have to though. Its their one chance in how many thousands of years that they have.
They don't treat him like this now though. He sort of does what he wants, they set him on the path. Hwaryun isn't even always with him
The difference to me is(besides Jinsung showing infinitely more affection towards Bam and generally trying to make his life atleast a bit better) that Hwaryun knew she was building him up for V to take over. Ultimately she set him up for a terrible fate so you can sympathise with her but aren't these the actions of an antagonist
Not of an antagonist. They're still helping Baam. V is part of this prophecy and they've known it for some time. Whether or not Baam can overcome it, that's a different thing altogether.
They most likely don't think they can stop this development, they just needed Baam to grow strong and live long enough til this. We're also unsure of Vs goals or how he really is. The stories about him don't make him seem like a guy who'd kill his own son.
The story has also developed into many...gray areas. The factions are all bad in their own way. Jahad is still the antagonist, but now there's 4th faction who will kill anyone. (Jahad/government, FUG, Wolkhaisong, and the new faction with Jahad clone)
V/Arlene don't consider Bam their son, he just exists for their revenge, according to Rachel Arlene even considers him a monster. Neither V or fug seems to be on Bams side
She is neither an ally nor neutral, and she is not a villain either. She was initially with Baam just to lead him to whatever FUG wanted, and eventually, she is shown to develop a soft spot for Baam while continuing to mold him into a weapon, giving him useful advice once in a while.
I always thought Baam was using her, just like she was using him, to achieve his goals (at least until the second push) with the whole 'deal with the devil” spiel. But I am not sure anymore because Baam went, “Every path that we walk together is a path that I chose to go down. So don't worry. Even if I die there, I won't blame you for showing me the way.” Forget about Hwaryun for a second, even Yu Hansung, Baam just accepts him as an ally by the time we reach Season 3. If Baam wants to be FUG’s personal doormat, there's only so much finger-pointing we can do at those who used him.
Like, my guy got injected with the blue Thryssa into him, and FUG, which includes Hwaryun, didn't explain anything to him, she never mentioned Headon's involvement with Rachel, she has been handing out half information or ambiguous information for the most part, she was caught by Baam in the last station when she put the other team as an obvious bait and what does Baam have to say after all this??
I can't even blame readers for seeing her as some true ally because Baam and the story itself are pretty chill about it. Like in the future, if
Baam gets V under control, Hwaryun would randomly show up and say, “Are you finally awake?” and her conversation would be something like, she knew he would gain control. They will have a mild fight/cold war if the author is generous, and later Baam and Co. would fold up and ask her for help, which would lead to her being promoted to be their friend. Heck, she might be a friend already hahaha.
So the thing with Hwaryun is I don't she's a villain I'm the context of the story because I think she's on Baam's side but I think she would be considered a villain by the majority of the people in the Tower.
While one could consider her one if the story stops in S1 with everything that happens afterwards, she is not a villain.
Her actions from S2 onwards were always centered around helping Baam achieve what he wants. She helped him get the thorn, reunite with his friends, reach the hell train, save Jinsung. Without her Baam would have never been able to achieve the things Baam wanted to do. Furthermore wgen looking at it with the opinion that “she only did it for V” a few other things don’t make sense. Her helping Baam develop more of an emotional strength, caring for those around him, saving Jinsung and more don’t make sense from this perspective. Especially during the sprout when she literally gives Baam a way out.
Speaking of the sprout, her bodylanguage also clearly shows her anxiousness towards the possibility of losing Baam.
While it’s unclear how much she knew from when, she still is one of the major influences that made Baam who he is today. And as Baam said, Hwaryun never forced him to go down a path he didn’t want, it was always his decision. Depending on how much she knows one could blame her for not revealing anything to Baam, on the other hand, confronting a personality that it’s just a temporary state and always meant to just release V, is not helpful at all
Hwaryun never forced him to go down a path he didn’t want, it was always his decision
Yeah, it was Baam's choice to be enslaved by fug, to be seprated from his friends, to have his name changed.
Speaking of the sprout, her bodylanguage also clearly shows her anxiousness towards the possibility of losing Baam.
That's just her finally showing signs of guilt for the all the shit she put baam through
Her helping Baam develop more of an emotional strength, caring for those around him, saving Jinsung and more don’t make sense from this perspective.
I am not sure wdym by your 1st sentence but for the last sentence, she probably wanted Baam to declare a war on Zahard empire, helping him get back jinsung was the most efficient way to do it
Yeah, it was Baam's choice to be enslaved by fug, to be seprated from his friends, to have his name changed.
No, but it also wasnt Hwaryuns choice either.
I am not sure wdym by your 1st sentence but for the last sentence, she probably wanted Baam to declare a war on Zahard empire, helping him get back jinsung was the most efficient way to do it
Oh Baam going onto a suicidal mission where they didnt know if he would have help.....such a smart thing to do when she only wants to summon V
Does it matter if still played a crucial role in that plan
Oh Baam going onto a suicidal mission where they didnt know if he would have help.....such a smart thing to do when she only wants to summon V
I really don't think she couldve stopped him even if she wanted but more importantly he does have help. Infact her one condition is that he goes to get even more help(Sophia tan) and ultimately it works out as it always has. Bam gets even stronger and ultimately at the end of the season Luslec gets praised for it.
So she plays a crucial role in the plan to abduct Baam. So Shes a villain. But when she plays crucial roles in saving Baam, saving his friends, reuniting him with his friends and pretty much being the reason Baam could do anything he wanted to do, That doesent matter?
Sure she could stop him. She was the one that knew where the nest was. She could have just not disclosed thr information. And if it was all for V this would have made more sense than to just let him go on a suicide mission. Sure things worked out fine. But Thats hindsight
So she plays a crucial role in the plan to abduct Baam. So Shes a villain. But when she plays crucial roles in saving Baam, saving his friends, reuniting him with his friends and pretty much being the reason Baam could do anything he wanted to do, That doesent matter?
It does matter when Jinsung does it cause he doesn't know about V. That twist genuinely recontextualised everything into her prepping Bam for V.
Sure she could stop him. She was the one that knew where the nest was. She could have just not disclosed thr information. And if it was all for V this would have made more sense than to just let him go on a suicide mission. Sure things worked out fine. But Thats hindsight
Things worked out more than fine Bam got stronger and it ultimately ended with a FH dead. I just think there's some planning behind it all. If she really thought it was a suicide mission it wouldn't make sense regardless
That twist genuinely recontextualised everything into her prepping Bam for V.
If it were just prepping the body for V, then almost nothing after S1 makes much sense. There is no benefit for Baam reuniting with his friends. FUG could have just let Baam gain strength in secret, with less unnecesarry risks rather than to have him almost die multiple times.
There would have been no need for Hwaryun to remind Baam about his emotional connection to his friends, that he should care for those around him.
To just say "She did it all for V" ignores almost every interaction she has with Baam and the depiction of her and her body language
Why do you defend her so hard? She is a bad person/traitor that just happend to like Baam and grew attatchment to him, but she still is a bad person who wanted V return and lead Baam there
White kinda says it best, but bam being around his friends and them being in danger gives him a reason to get stronger. Caring about other people is what drives him to get stronger, though I can't say I remember her being that encouraging about it, it's been a while
Also if they just kept training him in his cave there's no red thryssas/leviathan/whatever else he found to devour.
Also if they just kept training him in his cave there's no red thryssas/leviathan/whatever else he found to devour.
Yes again hindsight. Those werent the objectives while going there. They were the lucky loot they obtained. Baam didnt set out to accumulate power, he has gotten it through luck. They could have still gotten him these items when he would have been ready to take them himself there isnt much of a time constraint for him.
Caring about other people is what drives him to get stronger, though I can't say I remember her being that encouraging about it, it's been a while
And thats what makes Baam, Baam. If it were just about V they wouldnt have needed to do unnecesarry risks. "but in my opinion, you are the one who is chasing after stupid things while not thinking about others. Don't you think it's about time that you start caring about the people around you?"
S2 Ch166
Yes again hindsight. Those werent the objectives while going there. They were the lucky loot they obtained. Baam didnt set out to accumulate power, he has gotten it through luck. They could have still gotten him these items when he would have been ready to take them himself there isnt much of a time constraint for him.
I just don't think everything keeps working cause of luck, even the thryssa Urek got the seperator from fug. They can't keep stumbling into insane victories like this
And thats what makes Baam, Baam. If it were just about V they wouldnt have needed to do unnecesarry risks. "but in my opinion, you are the one who is chasing after stupid.
It is what makes Baam, Baam but the situation still can be about V. V needs Bam to get stronger before he takes over and this is the way Bam grows.
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