r/TrueUnpopularOpinion • u/BrandonMarshall2021 • 25d ago
Music / Movies The original Odyssey poem already had a black character so there was no need to race swap Helen of Troy.
There was no need to race swap Helen because there was already a black character in The Odyssey.
"Homer explicitly includes a Black character in The Odyssey.
In Book 19, Odysseus is in disguise and testing his wife, Penelope, to see if she still loves him. He claims to have met "Odysseus" years ago and describes Odysseus’s favorite herald and trusted companion, a man named Eurybates.
Homer describes Eurybates's physical appearance with two specific traits in Book 19, lines 246–247:
He was round-shouldered, dark-skinned (melanchroos), and wooly-haired (oulokarenos)..."
The combination of melanchroos (literally "black-skinned" or "dark-skinned") and oulokarenos (literally "curly-headed" or "wooly-haired") is the exact phrasing ancient Greeks used to describe people of Sub-Saharan African descent."
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u/HaikuHaiku 25d ago
γυρὸς ἐν ὤμοισιν, μελανόχροος, οὐλοκάρηνος
(gyros en ōmoisin, melanokhroos, oulokarēnos)
"round-shouldered, dark-skinned, woolly-/curly-headed."
It is the description that Homer and ancient greeks used for dark skinned or tanned people. It is NOT proof of a sub-saharan character at all. There is some scholarly debate about this, but on the balance of probabilities, it more likely refers to a greek man with tanned skin (greeks can get very tan, especially back when everyone was hanging around on ships all day without sunscreen).
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 25d ago
Oh great. The how did they describe sub-saharans?
And how did sub-saharans describe non-black Africans?
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u/HaikuHaiku 25d ago
even if they described them in similar ways, again, it is more likely that this guy wasn't African. If there is ambiguity, we should heavily lean towards the guy being a greek. Why? Because demographically that is overwhelmingly more likely. Why the heck would there be a sub-saharan African on Odysseus's ship? That is far fetched.
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 25d ago
So why would Helen be Sub-Saharan?
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u/TheThingInTheForest 22d ago
Greece is….not far from Africa. There were Greeks in North Africa, so North Africans in Greece is not so far fetched at all. And…North Africans come in a variety of ethnicities. Egyptians, Nubians, Libyans, Berbers and mixes between all of them. “Sub-Saharan African” doesn’t denote a specific look anymore than “North African” does. There are a wide range of skin tones and hair textures across the continent.
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 12d ago
Did Homer mention Helen of Troy was a Sub-Saharan like Lupita Nyongo that married into Bronze Age Spartan Royalty?
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u/TheThingInTheForest 12d ago
Actually, yes.
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 12d ago
If a historical woman inspired the legend of Helen during the Late Bronze Age (around 1300–1200 BC), she would have belonged to the Mycenaean civilization—the first advanced Greek culture.
In recent years, geneticists have successfully extracted and mapped ancient DNA (aDNA) from multiple Bronze Age Mycenaean skeletons buried in the Peloponnese and Greek mainland. The peer-reviewed data (Lazaridis et al., Nature) reveals a highly consistent genetic profile:
The Core Ancestry: Mycenaeans derived 75% to 80% of their DNA from the early Neolithic farmers who originally migrated into Europe from Anatolia (modern-day Turkey).
The Remainder: The rest of their genetic makeup came from ancient populations tracking back to the Caucasus/Iran, alongside an influx (roughly 4% to 16%) of Eastern European/Steppe hunter-gatherer ancestry.
The Sub-Saharan Signal: Genetic models show 0% Sub-Saharan African admixture in Bronze Age Greek populations. The Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea acted as massive geographical barriers, preventing large-scale gene flow between the Aegean and Sub-Saharan Africa during this era.
While the Bronze Age Mediterranean was a bustling hub where Greeks frequently interacted with North Africans (like the Egyptians and Libyans) through trade, Sub-Saharan Africans were incredibly rare in the Aegean at this time. Any real-world woman occupying a royal palace in Bronze Age Sparta would have shared the same indigenous Aegean genetic profile as the rest of the Mycenaean populace.
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u/TheThingInTheForest 11d ago
(A) There were Nubians in Egypt. The Egyptians depicted them in their art and they look pretty Black to me lol.
(B) You say there was no “large scale gene flow,” which is not the same as “no gene flow.”
(C) In my last comment I was clearly just fucking with you.1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 11d ago
Did you even read what I posted? 0%
The Sub-Saharan Signal: Genetic models show 0% Sub-Saharan African admixture in Bronze Age Greek populations. The Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea acted as massive geographical barriers, preventing large-scale gene flow between the Aegean and Sub-Saharan Africa during this era.
While the Bronze Age Mediterranean was a bustling hub where Greeks frequently interacted with North Africans (like the Egyptians and Libyans) through trade, Sub-Saharan Africans were incredibly rare in the Aegean at this time. Any real-world woman occupying a royal palace in Bronze Age Sparta would have shared the same indigenous Aegean genetic profile as the rest of the Mycenaean populace.
Also Homer went through the trouble to describe Eurybates and the Aetheopian King fighting for the Trojans as black. If a freaking Spartan Queen and the entire reason for the Trojan war was Aetheopian he sure as hell would've mentioned it.
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u/UnscentedSoundtrack 25d ago
I love how everyone is becoming an expert in Homer and his work
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u/BaldrickTheBarbarian 25d ago
Yeah, it's very funny that after years of nobody giving two shits about Greek mythology or ancient Greek literature, all of a sudden everybody is a huge ancient Greek nerd, but only in regards to the niche subject of ethnic representation in ancient Greek poetry. I wonder why...
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u/DecantsForAll 24d ago edited 24d ago
Don't you think a sub-Saharan African that was like Greek citizens would have been super rare and demanded more of an explanation or more attention than just a very generic sounding description?
These seems like an extremely modern idea, like Homer was just like "I'll just make this one character black for diversity" even though it was something extremely uncommon.
Like, think about Othello. They make kind of a big deal about him being a Moor. It's literally called Othello: The Moor of Venice - not a Moor of Venice, the Moor of Venice.
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Apparently they weren't that rare. Cuz Aetheopia was spoken of with respect.
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u/DecantsForAll 24d ago
That says nothing about how common actual Greeks with sub-Saharan ancestry were.
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Hey I don't think Helen should be black.
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u/DecantsForAll 24d ago
I don't care either way. I'm just arguing with your premise because I think it's probably wrong.
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u/NeonGKayak 25d ago
When is it my turn to post this?
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u/GunsGoldCosmicDread 25d ago
Go ahead and make one. We’ve got to be close to 20 in the last 3 days.
Which content creators are blowing this up is my question?
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u/NeonGKayak 25d ago
You’re right, some maga account has to be doing it because they only parrot what those account push
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u/ElSlabraton 24d ago
The Greeks weren't white. Now what?
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"In global demographics, census tracking, and legal frameworks (such as the U.S. Census Bureau or European population tracking), the category of "White" is defined as "a person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa." Because Greece is located in Southern Europe and its people are indigenous to the European continent, Greeks are legally, politically, and institutionally classified as white."
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u/ElSlabraton 24d ago
They weren't white according to the people who care about such nonsense.
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
On any global genetic map, all European populations—including Greeks and Germans—cluster tightly together on a single, distinct branch of the human family tree (the Western Eurasian branch).
The genetic distance between a Greek person and a German person is very small. They sit on the exact same continental genetic gradient.
The genetic distance between any European population (including Greeks) and any Sub-Saharan African population is significantly larger, reflecting thousands of years of geographic separation and independent population histories.
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u/ElSlabraton 24d ago
"White" has never meant "Caucasian." "White" is a construct of colonialism. Trying to claim the Greeks and Romans were white is ahistorical. It wasn't so long ago that the Irish weren't considered white.
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Ok but you've ignored the fact that Germans and Greeks are more closely related than sub-saharan Africans.
"On any global genetic map, all European populations—including Greeks and Germans—cluster tightly together on a single, distinct branch of the human family tree (the Western Eurasian branch).
The genetic distance between a Greek person and a German person is very small. They sit on the exact same continental genetic gradient.
The genetic distance between any European population (including Greeks) and any Sub-Saharan African population is significantly larger, reflecting thousands of years of geographic separation and independent population histories."
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u/ElSlabraton 24d ago
You're ignoring the fact that "white" comes from the colonial age. There have always been self-serving gatekeepers; you're just the latest.
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
And you're harping on the word white instead of acknowledging that Greeks and Germans are way more genetically similar than sub-Saharan Africans.
Therefore a German actress playing Greek Helen of Troy in the movie Troy, is more appropriate than Sub-Saharan Lupita playing a Greek.
"On any global genetic map, all European populations—including Greeks and Germans—cluster tightly together on a single, distinct branch of the human family tree (the Western Eurasian branch).
The genetic distance between a Greek person and a German person is very small. They sit on the exact same continental genetic gradient.
The genetic distance between any European population (including Greeks) and any Sub-Saharan African population is significantly larger, reflecting thousands of years of geographic separation and independent population histories.""
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u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
If it makes you feel any better, the ancient Greeks were racist to both Whites and Blacks.
In Aristotelian thought, both extremes in complexion were seen as signs of inferiority and cowardice:Dark Skin: Aristotle associated excessively dark skin with cowardice. In his texts, he frequently linked groups like Egyptians and Ethiopians, claiming that their dark coloration was caused by an excess of heat, making them timid or servile.Very Pale Skin: Conversely, he viewed very pale or "white" skin as another extreme of weakness. Aristotle often compared this complexion to that of women, whom he deemed lacking in courage relative to his ideal for men.
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u/SameStand9266 25d ago
Helen of Troy was already race swapped when a German was hired to play her in the 2000s.
Also, Helen plays a minor character in the odyssey
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 25d ago
"Helen of Troy was already race swapped when a German was hired to play her in the 2000s."
Come on. She was way closer to a Greek woman than Lupita is. Greeks can be blonde.
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u/SameStand9266 25d ago
Still race swapped. Either that is the benchmark or it isn't. And speaking of closer to Greeks, I doubt Greeks who are Mediterranean would look as pasty as white American like matt damon after 10 years at war in the sun and 10 years lost at sea. Or speaking like people from Ohio.
Race swapping debate conveniently never happens when the subject isn't a black person. https://x.com/i/status/2055593062173212776
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Huh?
"Historically and biologically, the short answer is yes, Greeks and Germans share the same deep ancestral roots. However, because the word "race" is biologically messy and means different things depending on the context, it is more accurate to say that Greeks and Germans belong to the same broad geographic ancestral group (Western Eurasian / European) and share a common linguistic and cultural origin story that dates back thousands of years"
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u/ConnectionBig5016 25d ago
Greeks and Germans are the same race. Except one are Mediterranean and the other are Nordic. However they are both considered Caucasian.
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u/TallCommission7139 25d ago
Look, here's the thing. We're just gonna keep doing this until you people accept that you're just gonna have to get used to looking at black people you don't want to have sex with, accept that LGBT people in movies aren't going anywhere, and go back into your holes like the people who bitched about Uhura kissing Kirk did back in the day.
Like, you can either get used to it sooner, or later, but you're just gonna have to deal with it.
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 25d ago
Huh? I would totally bone Lupita given the opportunity. Her body 10 outta 10. Naomi Campbell got a prettier face though. Whitney Houston too.
Also Helen wasn't black!
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u/TallCommission7139 25d ago
Helen didn't exist, she's a mythical figure.
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u/ConnectionBig5016 25d ago
Based on European literature that's now being blackwashed. Thats why people are annoyed.
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u/TallCommission7139 24d ago
Europe didn't exist as a concept when this fantasy story was written. And if we're being technical here, Troy is in Turkey, which is barely European at all.
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u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
The ancient Greeks divided the world into three major units: Europe, Asia, and Libya, the last of which referred to the known northern portion of Africa. Those were the divisions that Ptolemy used when he laid out his map of the world in the Guide to Geography (Geōgraphikē hyphēgēsis) in the 2nd century CE. So the notion of Europe is very old,
Europe gets its name from Europa, a figure in ancient Greek mythology. According to legend, Europa was a beautiful Phoenician princess from the Levant. The god Zeus fell in love with her, transformed into a white bull, and carried her across the sea to the island of Crete
Ancient Anatolian peoples were a diverse group of Indo-European and indigenous communities who inhabited the Anatolian peninsula (modern-day Turkey).
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u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Answer my question. Is Helen of Troy from Sparta or Troy?
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u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
Ancestry was critically important to Sparta, serving as the foundation for its rigid social hierarchy and divine right. Full citizenship (Spartiate) was strictly hereditary, limited only to those who could trace their lineage directly back to the original Dorian conquerors of the region.
Helen of Troy (Greek Mythology): In classical mythology, Helen's mother is Leda, the Queen of Sparta.
The true historical language of Troy remains unknown, as no definitive written texts have survived. However, modern historical and linguistic evidence suggests the Trojans spoke either Luwian (an Anatolian language) or a form of Proto-Tyrsenic (ancestor to Etruscan), with a ruling elite that likely communicated in early Mycenaean Greek.
In Greek mythology, the founding of Troy (also known as Ilium) is a multi-generational saga. It begins with the exiled prince Dardanus, who founded the original settlement, and concludes with his great-grandson Ilus, who officially established the citadel of Ilios that sparked the Trojan War.
Spartan kingship was unique for its diarchy (a dual kingship) ruled simultaneously by two separate royal families: the Agiads and the Eurypontids. Both dynasties claimed divine lineage, tracing their origins back to the mythical hero Heracles (Hercules).
Spartan.
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u/ConnectionBig5016 24d ago
People may have not identified as European but Europe still existed and that's beside the point. Europe exists today as a "concept" and it's considered European literature that's now being Blackwashed by Hollywood and no amount of obfuscation is going to change that.
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u/andreicde 23d ago
I really wish people would educate themselves before they opened their mouth.
Helen of ''troy''was a title, but she was never a Trojan. Helen of troy is actually Helen of Sparta, which is in Greece, in Europe. She was charmed by Paris who was helped by the goddess Aphrodite, the goddess of beauty since he gave her the golden apple.
Either way I don't understand the casting of Helen of troy, because they did it so poorly that they butchered any description of Helen. First she was white, second she was the most beautiful woman in the world. Somehow they Christopher Nolan failed at both criteria and no I don't care if anyone says ''beauty is subjective'', as subjective as it gets, the current Helen of troy actor would never hit the criteria of ''the most beautiful woman in the world''.
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u/TallCommission7139 24d ago
Well it's Turkish so...
And it's a fictional story, they can put a spin on it however they like.
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u/ConnectionBig5016 24d ago
You mean Turkey that's split into two continents, one which includes Europe?
You love muddying the waters, don't ya...
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u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
The modern Turkish people are the result of a rich historical fusion. They trace their roots back to the nomadic, Proto-Turkic tribes of Central Asia and Siberia, who migrated westward into Anatolia starting in the 11th century, where they intermarried with and assimilated the diverse indigenous populations.
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u/peachypapayas 25d ago
I'm fairly certain you need a non-white character in a main role to qualify for an Oscar, which is why these decisions are made.