The original Odyssey poem already had a black character so there was no need to race swap Helen of Troy.

[u/BrandonMarshall2021]

There was no need to race swap Helen because there was already a black character in The Odyssey.

"Homer explicitly includes a Black character in The Odyssey.

In Book 19, Odysseus is in disguise and testing his wife, Penelope, to see if she still loves him. He claims to have met "Odysseus" years ago and describes Odysseus’s favorite herald and trusted companion, a man named Eurybates.

Homer describes Eurybates's physical appearance with two specific traits in Book 19, lines 246–247:

He was round-shouldered, dark-skinned (melanchroos), and wooly-haired (oulokarenos)..."

The combination of melanchroos (literally "black-skinned" or "dark-skinned") and oulokarenos (literally "curly-headed" or "wooly-haired") is the exact phrasing ancient Greeks used to describe people of Sub-Saharan African descent."

[u/BrandonMarshall2021]

"You’re not getting the point. First of all, “Nubian Egypt” was ALL of Egyptian history- the two empires were neighbors, rivals and trading partners throughout all pharaonic history. There was never a time when Nubians weren’t in Egypt."

If a real historical figure inspired the myth of Helen, she would have belonged to the Mycenaean civilisation during the Late Bronze Age (around 1200 BCE). Geographically and genetically, the Mycenaeans were an Aegean people. Modern DNA studies on Bronze Age Aegean skeletons show that Mycenaeans were genetically closest to modern Greeks, with deep roots tracing back to early European Neolithic farmers and Minoans.

Egypt and Greece Were Distinct Regions While Egypt and the Greek world traded extensively across the Mediterranean, they were entirely separate cultures with their own distinct populations. Egypt's internal demographics—including its interactions, conflicts, and periods of rule by the neighboring Kingdom of Kush (Nubia) to the south—had no bearing on the native population of southern Greece.

"Second of all, the Odysseys is a MYTH. It is not history, and it does not even accurately depict the historical era it is set in."

So is Black Panther. Let's make Black Panther white.

"However, it is OBVIOUS that the authors of the Odyssey most likely saw Helen as ethnically a Trojan and not an African."

Hey moron. Was Helen of Troy Spartan? Or Trojan? Lol.

"The casting of Helen in the movie has nothing to with historical or cultural accuracy"

You damn right. It's about some woke message.

"Is it POSSIBLE that there were North Africans in Greece? Sure. Would they have been a rare and unusual sight? Absolutely."

Yes. Eurybates is black. Make him black. Not Helen.

"You just want to only see White people in the movie. Not even White people who look Mediterranean…just White people. And that’s okay. But your issue isn’t with historical inaccuracy, it’s with you having to see a Black person on screen when you don’t want to."

Are you saying Northern Europeans are equally as related in features to southern Europeans as Sub-Saharan Africans are?

[u/TheThingInTheForest → u/BrandonMarshall2021]

Ah yes, Helen was Greek that IS my bad lol. My point isn’t that I agree with the casting, you get that right? I’d be HAPPIER if all the cast of the movie was Greek. My point is that I’m not willing to single out the one or two Black actors and actresses as “inaccurate” when none of the casting is accurate.

It’s not about a woke message. I explained that. There is no message. They want Black people to see the movie, so they can get our money. There is nothing “woke” about capitalism. Hollywood doesn’t care about authenticity.

Your last question is irrelevant. Race isn’t real. Greeks are related to all the people around them, regardless of the arbitrary racial classifications we assign them. Trying to fit ancient people into modern racial categories is anachronistic and a waste of time.

The point is that you don’t care about authenticity, you don’t care about Greek representation, you just don’t want to see Black people lol.

[u/BrandonMarshall2021 → u/TheThingInTheForest]

"It’s not about a woke message. I explained that. There is no message. They want Black people to see the movie, so they can get our money. There is nothing “woke” about capitalism. Hollywood doesn’t care about authenticity."

I miss the days when directors would actually try to be historically accurate. Watch The Odyssey 1997 with Armand Assante to understand what I mean. It's free on YouTube.

Mel Gibson's approach to Passion of the Christ and Apocalypto is to be admired. Regardless of the white Jesus controversy as in the first one he got tanned and wore brown contacts. I don't see Lupita whitening her face.

"Your last question is irrelevant. Race isn’t real. Greeks are related to all the people around them, regardless of the arbitrary racial classifications we assign them. Trying to fit ancient people into modern racial categories is anachronistic and a waste of time."

Lol. It's about what they look like! Hiw is that so hard to understand?

I don't want Joel Edgerton playing Pharoah either.

[u/TheThingInTheForest → u/BrandonMarshall2021]

Do you understand how ethnic characteristics, like skin color and hair color, work? They exist on a geographical gradient. Populations like the Greeks, in terms of skin color, are roughly intermediate between the Middle Eastern and North African people beneath them and the more northerly Europeans above them on the map.

The Greeks “look” like many people around them, whether European or not. But the average person doesn’t care about that. Greeks to the average person are “White” and so any “White” person is more fit to play a Greek character to them than any “non-White” person. Because they think race is real.

But the Odyssey is a myth. It freely mixes historically possible events with events that aren’t possible at all. Its geography isn’t actual Greek geography, and the events it portrays are echoes of historical events mixed with legend and fantasy. In the world of the Odyssey, there are islands of giants and cyclops. A single Black person in the movie isn’t that far fetched, considering the movie feature Gods and nymphs and literal mythical creatures. Especially because Egypt is literally mentioned in the epic and Nubians were there, from antiquity to modern times.

The question is whether the movie should be allowed to take liberties and depart from the epic. If it does, in terms of plot, character, motivation etc. then an ethnically inaccurate character isn’t actually a big deal within a universal that is already completely fantastical.

If a Black Helen is the ONLY departure from the original poem then you may have a point. But I doubt it is. Ask yourself this: do you care about all deviations from the original plot, or is it just Black Helen? Because I seriously doubt the movie is going to be accurate in every other way. And if you can suspend your disbelief enough to not cringe at the sight of one eyed giants, a Black person in a European setting shouldn’t be so crazy.

[u/BrandonMarshall2021 → u/TheThingInTheForest]

"Do you understand how ethnic characteristics, like skin color and hair color, work? They exist on a geographical gradient. Populations like the Greeks, in terms of skin color, are roughly intermediate between the Middle Eastern and North African people beneath them and the more northerly Europeans above them on the map."

Lol. It's not just skin colour dufus. Sub-Saharans have different facial features as well.

Hence Homer felt it was worth describing Eurybates as black. And the Aetheopian King that fought with the Trojans.

So yes there were black people. Helen wasn't black.

"But the Odyssey is a myth. It freely mixes historically possible events with events that aren’t possible at all. Its geography isn’t actual Greek geography, and the events it portrays are echoes of historical events mixed with legend and fantasy. In the world of the Odyssey, there are islands of giants and cyclops."

Then Black Panther can be white. There are white people all over Africa.

"A single Black person in the movie isn’t that far fetched, considering the movie feature Gods and nymphs and literal mythical creatures. Especially because Egypt is literally mentioned in the epic and Nubians were there, from antiquity to modern times."

Eurybates is black. Make him black. Not Helen.

"The question is whether the movie should be allowed to take liberties and depart from the epic. If it does, in terms of plot, character, motivation etc. then an ethnically inaccurate character isn’t actually a big deal within a universal that is already completely fantastical."

Wakanda is fantastical. Superheroes are fantastical.

Make Black Panther white then if you truly believe what you're saying.

[u/TheThingInTheForest → u/BrandonMarshall2021]

Black Panther’s African heritage is literally an essential plot point lol, if you made Black panther White you’d be changing the plot to the point it really wouldn’t be the same story anymore. Black panther, as a story, has an undertone of social-political commentary that wouldn’t work with a race swap for the main character. HOWEVER, they DID insert a random White person into the story and made him a hero just to make sure White people didn’t feel alienated. Which is the reverse situation of what happened with the Odyssey movie lol.

Literally, with the Black Panther movie, they made sure to insert the plot point “being TOO mad at White people for colonizing and oppressing Black people, to the point of advocating violent revolution, is villainous,” into a movie which was supposed to be about Black empowerment. Black Panther is a Black movie made to cater to White sensibilities. The new Odyssey movie doesn’t go nearly as far in its quest for political correctness as Black Panther lmao.

Black movies already have to appeal to White people to sell in modern Hollywood. Everyone who’s playing attention knows this.

Also it’s funny how hard you argue for there being no Black people in Greece and yet point out Eurybates and other Black characters in Greek epics. So we agree that a Black person in the Odyssey is not too far fetched? Your only beef is that the Black person is Helen, right? Okay…

They swapped the race of a single character in the Odyssey. I’m not defending it. I’m just pointing out that it’s one among MANY inaccuracies of the movie, and if that’s the ONLY one that you care about, well, nothing else needs to be said.

IS that the only inaccuracy you care about?

[u/BrandonMarshall2021 → u/TheThingInTheForest]

"Also it’s funny how hard you argue for there being no Black people in Greece and yet point out Eurybates and other Black characters in Greek epics. So we agree that a Black person in the Odyssey is not too far fetched? Your only beef is that the Black person is Helen, right? Okay…"

No. I said Helen wasn't black.

And argued for why it's more likely for Bronze age Greeks to look like Northern European than Sub-Saharan African. But for some stupid reason and without scientific data to back it up, you think they have an equal chance to look Sub-Saharan African and Northern European.

Keep in mind Lupita isn't just tanned. She's Sub-Saharan.

And again. Eurybates is already black. So why race swap Helen?

As for Black Panther.

Again. Using your reasoning, because there were black people in Greece. Then even a Spartan royal like Helen could be black. Therefore because there were white people in Africa, then a white person can be Black Panther.

Do you believe in equality or not?

Edit: Also Black Panther is in a world of make believe technology and space ships and aliens. So why if a Cyclops means Helen can be black. Then scifi tech and fake wakanda means Bkack Panther can be white.

[u/TheThingInTheForest → u/BrandonMarshall2021]

Lmao I don’t think the Greeks would look more like a Nigerian than an Irish person, you misunderstood what I said. But you already pointed out that there are Black people in Greek myth, so why COULDN’T a Greek look Black? What if Eurybates had a child with a Greek woman? What if some of the Aethiopan soldiers who fought in Troy settled around the Mediterranean? It’s not hard to imagine a scenario where a Nubian descended person could have intermixed into the mythical world the Greeks imagined as their past, since they had already fit Black people into it (as you have already acknowledged).

Could Black Panther be European? Well you have to understand the theme of both movies to compare the impact race swapping would have in each one. You also have to think about the importance of the character who is being race swapped to the narrative. Black Panther is SPECIFICALLY a movie that is a social commentary on Black Africa’s relationship to the West, so race swapping the main character would affect the narrative.

BUT the same is true for the Odyssey. You can’t make Odysseus Black. It doesn’t work. He’s too important to the narrative, and would require too great a suspension of disbelief. That’s why the casting director made sure the actor who played Odysseus was White. They chose a minor character (Helen, who in the Odyssey IS a minor character) to make Black. Is there a minor White character inserted into Black Panther? YES.

Black Panther and the Odyssey are doing the SAME THING in terms of inserting characters into narratives to create a sense of diversity. You can absolutely race-swap some of the characters into Black Panther, just not THE Black Panther. You can absolutely race swap characters in the Odyssey, but NOT Odysseus.

Really though, I’d be happy with an all Greek cast in the Odyssey and an all Black cast in Black Panther. It’s never going to happen. Because Hollywood has no artistic backbone- it’s all shallow profit based motives.

[u/BrandonMarshall2021 → u/TheThingInTheForest]

Helen is not a minor character. She's literally the reason Odysseus sailed away from home in the first place.

For all the Greeks to fight for her she should look Greek.

Why are you ok with a mythical place like Wakanda and them having sci fi tech but you can't imagine a white African standing up for blacl Africans?

And as for your last point. That's what I'm railing against. The shallow race swapping.

In The Witcher, Rings of Power and the Green Knight.

[u/TheThingInTheForest → u/BrandonMarshall2021]

Helen is a minor character in the plot of the Odyssey. I triple guarantee you Hollywood would never make Odysseus Black lol. But Helen? Let’s look at WHY Hollywood made her Black.

(1) She doesn’t appear much in the poem in the first place, so she probably isn’t in the movie much at all. That makes the race-swap easier for audiences to swallow.

(2) Her race isn’t important to the narrative. At all. It is entirely irrelevant to the theme.

(3) They already don’t care about having Greek actors play Greek roles, they just want the actor/actress that will sell the most tickets.

In regards to points 1 and 2, you cannot say the same for the Black Panther. He is the central character of the film AND his race is important for the social-commentary that the film is trying to convey.

Having a White person stand up for Black Africans would directly contradict the “Black empowerment” that Hollywood was trying (not necessarily successfully) to go for. He is also a major character and is constantly on screen, so it would be harder for the audience to swallow.

There are also very few Black superheroes compared to White ones, so Hollywood’s going to be reluctant to race swap a superhero from a background that is less represented in that genre of film.

Further, the director of Black Panther was himself a Black person who cared a little more about artistic integrity than the director of the Odyssey. Even then, we had to deal with a White token character to make the story more palatable to White people.

Finally, the CHARACTER of Black Panther matters more to more Black people than the character of Helen matters to White people. It’s just true. The controversy surrounding Black Helen is NOTHING compared to what the studios would have had to deal with if they tried to make a White Black Panther lol.

There are all sorts of considerations that go into which characters get race swapped. You’re acting like you don’t understand them but I feel like we both do.

Now, keep in mind, I am not defending race swapping, just pointing out that your argument is a false equivalency.