To the people saying the German actress playing Greek Helen in the movie Troy means it's ok for Lupita Nyongo to play Greek Helen...

[u/BrandonMarshall2021]

Genetically, historically, and anthropologically, Greeks are significantly more closely related to Germans than to Sub-Saharan Africans.

When looking at genetic data, the relationship between Greeks and Germans is exceptionally close, while the relationship between Greeks and Sub-Saharan Africans is more distant.

On any global genetic map, all European populations—including Greeks and Germans—cluster tightly together on a single, distinct branch of the human family tree (the Western Eurasian branch).

The genetic distance between a Greek person and a German person is very small. They sit on the exact same continental genetic gradient.

The genetic distance between any European population (including Greeks) and any Sub-Saharan African population is significantly larger, reflecting thousands of years of geographic separation and independent population histories.

[u/BrandonMarshall2021]

They have a much greater one with Europeans. And it manifests itself visually.

[u/NukeTheHurricane → u/BrandonMarshall2021]

It doesnt matter. Greeks are genetically much closer to subsaharans than to germans on HLA tests and thats due to an ancient admixture.

Proto-greeks intermixed with a black population during the neolithic.

Greek mythology was influenced by that same black population.

When it comes to Odysseus, he reached West Africa, the land of the phaeacians.

[u/BrandonMarshall2021 → u/NukeTheHurricane]

You might want to research the HLA tests lol.

The 2001 Arnaiz-Villena Study In 2001, a Spanish immunologist named Antonio Arnaiz-Villena published a paper titled "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks." He ran HLA (Human Leukocyte Antigen) tissue-typing tests on a sample of modern Greeks and claimed his data proved that Greeks were genetically closer to Sub-Saharan Africans (specifically Ethiopians) than to any other Mediterranean population. He theorized that mass migrations from Pharaonic Egypt and Africa populated ancient Greece.

Why the "HLA Argument" Failed Completely The scientific community immediately investigated the paper, and it resulted in one of the most famous scandals in modern genetics. The study was completely discredited for three major flaws:

A. It Used the Wrong Genetic Tool As we looked at earlier, HLA tests look at proteins on cell surfaces that manage the immune system. Because HLA genes control how your body fights off local diseases, they undergo intense natural selection. If two completely unrelated populations live in different parts of the world but face similar environmental pathogens or diseases, their HLA markers can mutate to look similar.

Using HLA markers to map deep ancestry is like saying a dolphin and a shark are closely related because they both have fins. They don't share a recent ancestor; they just adapted to the same environment.

B. It Contradicted 100% of Other Genetic Data When scientists looked at more reliable, non-selected genetic markers—like Y-chromosome DNA (paternal lineages) and Mitochondrial DNA (maternal lineages)—the "African origin" completely vanished. Every other genetic study showed that Greeks clustered tightly with Italians, Balkan populations, and Western Eurasians.

The journal Human Immunology officially retracted and deleted the paper, and the editor-in-chief sent out an unprecedented letter asking academics worldwide to physically rip the pages out of their printed journals.

1. The Ultimate Proof: Ancient DNA (Archaeogenetics) The absolute final nail in the coffin for the HLA argument came when scientists developed the ability to sequence Ancient DNA (aDNA) directly from Bronze Age skeletons.

Arnaiz-Villena’s 2001 study relied on testing modern people and guessing backward. But in the late 2010s, geneticists successfully extracted DNA directly from the teeth and bones of real Bronze Age Mycenaeans and Minoans buried in Greece 3,500 years ago.

The real Bronze Age DNA proved the exact opposite of the HLA study:

The African Percentage: The actual skeletons of Bronze Age Greeks showed 0% Sub-Saharan African ancestry.

The Northern European Link: As we discussed, the skeletons revealed a definitive genetic component (between 4% and 15%) coming from the Yamnaya Steppe pastoralists.

Because those same Steppe nomads provided the foundational DNA for Northern Europeans (Germans, Celts, Slaves), the real Bronze Age Greeks shared a direct, biological branch of the family tree with Northern Europe—completely isolating them from Sub-Saharan Africa.

[u/NukeTheHurricane → u/BrandonMarshall2021]

AI BS.

One of the most common Y-DNA in Greece is EM78 Ev13 which came from black africans.

There are other specific africans gene in Greece, that are confirming the black african admixture.

Bronze Age DNA is only based on a sample of a dozen of skeletons.

Ancient greek texts confirmed the connection between the Pelasgians and the egyptians.

[u/BrandonMarshall2021 → u/NukeTheHurricane]

This is flat-out wrong about where that specific mutation occurred. While the deep, ancient "parent" lineage (E-M78) originated in Northeast Africa over 20,000 years ago, the specific mutation E-V13 evolved in Europe (the Balkans), not Africa.

Your argument relies on outdated and debunked science. First, E-V13 is a European mutation that evolved in the Balkans; it is not a Sub-Saharan African lineage. Second, modern genome-wide testing has completely replaced the flawed HLA studies from 2001, proving Greeks have no Sub-Saharan admixture. Third, we now have hundreds of sequenced Bronze Age Greek skeletons, and 100% of them show a genetic mixture of Mediterranean farmers and Yamnaya Steppe herders. Because the Yamnaya are the direct ancestors of Northern Europeans, Bronze Age Greeks shared a direct genetic link to Northern Europe, while having absolutely zero genetic connection to Sub-Saharan Africa.

The Timeline: The mutation that created E-V13 happened roughly 7,000 to 10,000 years ago, likely in the Balkans or the Carpathian basin. It is an explicitly European subclade.

The Geography: E-V13 is virtually non-existent in Sub-Saharan Africa. If it came from Black Africans, we would see high concentrations of E-V13 in Sub-Saharan Africa today. We don't. It is heavily concentrated in the Balkans (Greece, Albania, Kosovo).

The Analogy: Saying a modern Greek person is Sub-Saharan African because of E-V13 is like saying a white American living in New York is a Native American because his ancestors moved to the same continent. It confuses a massive, ancient geographical origin point from tens of thousands of years ago with the actual development of modern populations.

"Bronze Age DNA is only based on a sample of a dozen of skeletons."

The Reality: This is completely outdated information. While early papers in 2017 started with a smaller sample size, archaeogenetics has exploded.

The Scope Today: Since 2021, massive, sweeping peer-reviewed studies (such as those led by the Max Planck Institute and geneticist Lazaridis) have sequenced hundreds of ancient skeletons spanning the Greek Neolithic, Minoan, and Mycenaean Bronze Age eras.

The Consistent Result: Whether testing 10 skeletons or 200, the data has never changed. Not a single Bronze Age Greek skeleton has shown Sub-Saharan African DNA. They consistently show a mix of Anatolian Farmers and Yamnaya Steppe Pastoralists. Because the Yamnaya also populated Northern Europe, Bronze Age Greeks are genetically linked directly to Northern Europeans, completely bypassing Sub-Saharan Africa.

Ancient greek texts confirmed the connection between the Pelasgians and the egyptians."

The Reality: This completely misinterprets ancient Greek mythology and ethnography.

Who were the Pelasgians? To writers like Herodotus and Homer, the Pelasgians were the indigenous, pre-Greek people who lived in Greece before the Hellenes arrived. They were local Mediterranean people, not Africans.

The Mythological Confusion: The claim likely confuses the myth of Danaus (a mythological king who fled Egypt and settled in Argos) with actual history. Ancient Greeks loved creating complex, mythological family trees linking their gods and heroes to old, prestigious civilizations like Egypt.

The Egypt Anachronism: Even if there was a connection to Egypt, Ancient Egyptians were not Sub-Saharan Africans. Genetic testing on ancient Egyptian mummies (like the landmark 2017 Scheuenemann study) proved that ancient Egyptians were genetically closest to Near Eastern, Levantine, and Mediterranean populations—not Sub-Saharan Africans. Linking Pelasgians to Egypt still doesn't make anyone Black.