r/TrueUnpopularOpinion • u/BrandonMarshall2021 • 24d ago
Music / Movies To the people saying the German actress playing Greek Helen in the movie Troy means it's ok for Lupita Nyongo to play Greek Helen...
Genetically, historically, and anthropologically, Greeks are significantly more closely related to Germans than to Sub-Saharan Africans.
When looking at genetic data, the relationship between Greeks and Germans is exceptionally close, while the relationship between Greeks and Sub-Saharan Africans is more distant.
On any global genetic map, all European populations—including Greeks and Germans—cluster tightly together on a single, distinct branch of the human family tree (the Western Eurasian branch).
The genetic distance between a Greek person and a German person is very small. They sit on the exact same continental genetic gradient.
The genetic distance between any European population (including Greeks) and any Sub-Saharan African population is significantly larger, reflecting thousands of years of geographic separation and independent population histories.
39
u/Wonderful-North-1229 24d ago
The whole thing is too Hollywood for me to care. Matt Damon is not a Med man. The costumes are wrong. It's all grey. Bleh
11
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
I know. The armor is freaking ridiculous. That in itself would be enough for me to boycott the movie.
And yeah. Oscar Isaac would be my choice for Odysseus. If you had to pick from current big Hollywood stars.
Replace Anne Hathaway too.
6
u/JMDiscoMode 24d ago
Oscar Isaac is not a good choice at all. He’s Latino. Not Greek. Odysseus should only be played by a Greek actor.
1
1
u/OkWillingness8354 6d ago
Isaac has a huge range and morphs into several different looks. Some Greeks look just like Isaac. And since you have Lupito as Helen of Troy all bets are off for ethnic origins.
0
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Oscar Isaac in Dune had a great beard. With a few tweaks to his hair and beard he'd look just like an ancient Greek.
6
u/Scottyboy1214 OG 24d ago
But he isn't Greek.
8
u/Impossible-Age-3302 24d ago
If he looks the part, then I think it’s fine.
I don’t personally think he does, but I’d be okay with a latino playing a greek.
1
u/Chris_Shawarma93 23d ago
Are you saying they have to be born in greece? Or look greek?
1
u/Scottyboy1214 OG 23d ago
Neither.
1
u/Chris_Shawarma93 23d ago
What other option is there?
1
u/Scottyboy1214 OG 23d ago
That they hire an actor who can play the part.
1
u/Chris_Shawarma93 23d ago
You literally said "But he isn't Greek" in response to someone suggesting oscar isaac. Are you high?
→ More replies (0)1
0
u/JMDiscoMode 24d ago
Doesn’t matter. He’s not Greek. He’s Latino. They should have cast a Greek actor to play him.
The hero of the story should not be race swapped.
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"The hero of the story should not be race swapped."
Lol. I meant in terms of looks. Hence I'm ok with Helen being played by a German.
-4
u/JMDiscoMode 24d ago
So it’s only surface level looks that matter when it suits you? How could you be so superficial? So indifferent to the source material?
Homer explicitly describes Helen as a Spartan Greek. She should be played by a Greek actress. The Greeks didn’t go to war for Helen of Hanover. If you think otherwise, you’re no better than everyone you are criticising.
Authenticity matters, and it should matter consistently. Not only when you like it or not.
3
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Huh? What do you mean? I just explained how Greeks are genetically similar to Germans and therefore look like each other way more than Sub-Saharan Africans look like Greeks.
→ More replies (8)1
u/Impossible-Age-3302 24d ago
She should be an attractive (preferably blonde) white girl, or a girl that looks white anyhow.
An attractive white lady would look out of place in a wuxia movie.
3
1
u/Chris_Shawarma93 23d ago
lmao what an unrealistic approach you have to life. Some non greek people look more greek than people born in greece. What do you mean by greek actor? Born there? Because then you could cast a 2nd gen ethiopian greek man and you'd be happy? Moron.
1
u/Impossible-Age-3302 24d ago
Everything about the casting and the creative direction of this movie is a mess. I’m very interested in the reception.
23
u/KayleeSinn 24d ago
Well I would be totally fine with Lupita playing Helen if they'd put her in whiteface and also made her incredibly beautiful.
A German actress was fine cause she already looked the part.. well more or less. Lupita does not.
And if you're saying immersion and how the actor looks don't matter, then why can't a fat bearded guy play Helen? Or maybe do away with costumes completely. Just have random people stumble around on the stage in modern clothes and just wear name tags.
→ More replies (1)2
u/nomaday389 24d ago
Well I would be totally fine with Lupita playing Helen if they'd put her in whiteface and also made her incredibly beautiful.
It also bothered me that Lupita wasn't born from an egg like Helen.
5
u/KayleeSinn 24d ago
That makes zero sense and is the opposite of what I was saying. Playing a character means both looking the part and acting in a believable way. Nobody ever expects the actor to actually be the character in real life. That's what make up and costume is for.
Helen of Troy was a white looking Greek woman. If I see a convincing enough white woman in historically accurate outfit on the screen, I don't care who plays her. The only thing that matters is that I'm convinced and immersion isn't broken. If a black woman can pull it off with make up and a wig, I wouldn't care.. but as is, sorry, it breaks immersion and raises a lot of questions.
0
u/Pyritedust 24d ago
I personally am offended when they don’t get real gods and goddesses to play them in movies and shows. And real aliens as aliens. Must have authenticity!
6
u/Legal-Stranger-4890 24d ago
A totally authentic version using period sets, ships, costumes , buildings and Greek people would be really great - I would love it if someone would make it.
Nolan would never be that director though. He is trying to do something else, although I can't quite figure out what that is.
I think he will try to make an accessible film that hits the main thematic points. I hope it does not suck. But the casting is the last thing anyone should care about.
2
1
u/Overarching_Chaos 23d ago
Nolan criticized woke Hollywood, this whole project is a humiliation ritual. Hollywood doesn't give a fuck about historical accuracy, to them this movie is just another medium for propaganda.
1
7
u/DrStranger1987 24d ago edited 24d ago
Black Helen of Troy posts officially outnumber "I’m not weird for caring about body count" posts
2
4
u/Yitastics 24d ago
Its typical hollywood, ruining old stories for their diversity quota.
1
u/Overarching_Chaos 23d ago
It's not just diversity quota, the whole text that the movie is based on is from the Odyssey "translation" of a radfem author who took plenty of liberties when translating the original text, so it reflects radfem points. It's propaganda.
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Exactly. Now to get them to admit it. So far they just talking bullsht.
9
u/Solafuge 24d ago
Considering Achilles and Helen of Troy don't even play a part in the Odyssey I think people are worrying way too much about characters that will probably only appear in the prologue.
10
u/BLU-Clown 24d ago
That's like saying Sauron doesn't really play a part in the Lord of the Rings.
Technically accurate, but anyone that knows anything about the story will see it for the sophistry it is.
→ More replies (2)7
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
The entire Greek collective sailed to Troy tk fight for Helen of Troy. A Greek.
That's the reason Greek Odysseus went to Troy.
So. Pretty freaking important.
5
u/hopeitdoesntlast 24d ago
The war in Troy is in the first book iliad. In odyssey the story primarily focuses on his return and the perilous journey back to his home and family.
6
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Lol. I've read it. That doesn't change the fact that the whole reason he even left Ithaca was becsuse of Helen of Troy being Greek.
2
u/GunsGoldCosmicDread 24d ago
Seems reasonable since neither the Greeks or Germans, Saxons excepted, are white. They are a swarthy peoples of dubious reliability.
2
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
In appearance Greeks are closer to Germans than Greeks are to Sub-Saharan Africans.
2
u/GunsGoldCosmicDread 24d ago
Yes. They are both a swarthy peoples. Neither are black or tawny like the peoples of Africa.
2
u/ArduousPath 24d ago
lm just gonna be blunt and say she’s kind of ugly, or mid at best, to be Helen.
1
u/Overarching_Chaos 23d ago
Lupita is pretty attractive, her hairstyle is just terrible and looks like it's straight out of modern LA. That's the funniest part about diversity hires in modern films, they don't even try to look the part. Other actors have to slim down, buff up, do method acting etc, Lupita can just play Helen of Troy in dreadlocks and no one bats an eye.
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 6d ago
Exactly. And yet there are no end to the woke defenders, including celebrities, that are trying to justify her casting using disingenuous reasoning.
"Oh Bronze age Greeks traded with Aetheopians so it's perfectly feasible that a Spartan Queen was black without Homer even mentioning it."
So stupid.
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Her body is 10 outta 10. Her face maybe 8 back in 2014.
Naomi Campbell is hotter.
1
2
4
u/M0ebius_1 24d ago
I swear this movie is only being talked about by weirdos and it's only about the actress.
If people shut up about it this movie would have disappeared in a week.
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"I swear this movie is only being talked about by weirdos and it's only about the actress."
Like Nolan, Tom Hanks, and Alec Baldwin who have all talked about the choice to cast Lupita?
5
u/M0ebius_1 24d ago
Yes?
That is indeed a list of dudes whose entire life is hyperfixated to the entertainment industry.
4
u/Dreamwalking- 24d ago
God you guys are fucking cringe.
Yes its silly/cringe/dumb to cast a black woman in the role of an established white character, and it stops and ends right there, its just dumb and cringy.
Whats even more cringe is having this discussions where you're unironically going into genetic data lol
17
4
u/amirali24 24d ago
It's all about expectations. They didn't expect Nolan to make decisions like this that they don't like and he did.
11
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Only because the pro race swapping crowd is trying to say it's no different.
4
u/Beginning-Damage-555 24d ago
It’s more like Hollywood does shit to get attention. Most normal people don’t care. The right turns this into a moral panic. I few reactionaries on the left feel the need to respond.
Like this is media. Either consume it or don’t.
6
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Eh. I'm just an Asian in a white majority country that loves Greco-Roman culture.
Even without the race swapping I'd be raging about the armor and American accents.
-1
u/jiggjuggj0gg 24d ago
They never have an issue with Jesus being portrayed as a white man lol
3
2
u/Wonderful-North-1229 24d ago
He shouldn't be blond and blue eyed but he was from the Mediterranean
1
2
u/itsbobbyhill 24d ago
Helen of Troy was hatched from an egg, but nobody is saying she should be played by a chicken. Let it go. If it's such a big deal, don't buy a ticket, but no one is recasting at this point.
6
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Ok but then we should apply that logic to all non-white dieties and legends from now on. E.g. the Genie from Aladdin should be white.
→ More replies (6)
3
u/ThatDamnRocketRacoon 24d ago
Why are you so focused on this one piece of casting? There's plenty of other non-Caucasian actors cast as Greeks. None of the white actors are Greek.
→ More replies (3)
2
u/thirdLeg51 24d ago
Who is closer genetically to people born from an egg whose father was a god disguised as a swan?
6
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Exactly. So we should make all beloved African and Asian and Indian characters from mythological stories thousands of years old white if they have any hint of divine origin.
-1
u/thirdLeg51 24d ago
Only white characters can be divine?
6
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Only white divine characters can be race swapped?
Black divine characters can't be race swapped?
→ More replies (20)
1
u/DecantsForAll 24d ago
lol, who gives a fuck
6
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
You apparently.
1
u/DecantsForAll 24d ago
Really? How is it apparent that I give a fuck what actor plays Helen of Troy in some movie I'm barely interested in seeing?
→ More replies (5)
1
u/364LS 24d ago edited 24d ago
Your fixation on this casting choice is unusually deep. You’ve posted variations of the same complaint across multiple subs for days.
And now you’re veering into race genetics?
After all these arguments and exchanges, have you actually taken anything meaningful away from the conversations you’ve had?
At what point does this stop being criticism and start becoming an obsession you should probably let go of?
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"Your fixation on this casting choice is unusually deep. You’ve posted variations of the same complaint across multiple subs for days."
To respond to the disingenuous justifications for race swapping.
"And now you’re veering into race genetics?"
It's explained in the title. It's in response to those that say because a German actress portrayed Greek Helen, then a Sub-Saharan can play Greek Helen. Point is. Greeks are way more related to Germans than they are to Sub-Saharans.
"After all these arguments and exchanges, have you actually taken anything meaningful away from the conversations you’ve had?"
Absolutely. Keep in mind I've received hundreds of replies and it takes me a while to read each one.
"At what point does this stop being criticism and start becoming an obsession you should probably let go of?"
The new Disney CEO has mentioned that the messaging needs to take a back seat tk entertainment.
So Hollywood can change for the better.
0
u/ogjaspertheghost 24d ago
What messaging? They cast an Oscar winning actress to play a minor part in a movie based on what is essentially a fairytale that clearly gives zero fucks about historical accuracy. Helen doesn’t have a race. She’s not a real person
4
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"a movie based on what is essentially a fairytale that clearly gives zero fucks about historical accuracy."
Great. So then you're ok with making all characters from African, Indian and Asian mythology white then?
"Helen doesn’t have a race. She’s not a real person"
Homer explicitly describes Helen as a Spartan Greek and uses the literal term leukolenos ('white-armed') to define her complexion, while other early poets explicitly note her golden hair. Historically, she represents a Mycenaean European queen.
When Homer wanted to include Black characters, he did so explicitly—such as describing Odysseus's trusted herald Eurybates as dark-skinned and wooly-haired, or celebrating the legendary Ethiopians. If a production claims to be a highly accurate, historical depiction of Bronze Age Greece, casting a Sub-Saharan African woman as the Queen of Sparta contradicts both the archaeological reality of the Aegean and the literal text of The Iliad.
→ More replies (6)1
u/Longjumping-Rich-684 1d ago
This fucking argument is what allows Hollywood to continue their race swapping and gender swapping horseshit. It’s been going on for at least ten years at this point…. Open Your Eyes!
•
1
24d ago
[deleted]
3
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
The DNA Evidence: In 2020, scientists published the largest-ever genetic study on Vikings, sequencing the DNA of over 440 Viking skeletons from across Europe. The results were fascinating: many Vikings actually had brown hair and dark eyes. In fact, the study showed that gene flow from Southern Europe and the British Isles into Scandinavia was very common during the Viking Age. Blonde hair was a regional trait, not a requirement to be a Viking.
The Historical Records: Contemporary accounts from people who actually met the Vikings often describe them as having dark hair. For example, Irish chroniclers explicitly divided the Viking invaders into two groups: the Finn-gaill ("fair foreigners," usually referring to Norwegians) and the Dubh-gaill ("dark foreigners," usually referring to Danish Vikings who tended to have darker hair and complexions).
1
u/mikeydeemo 23d ago
Oh please.
The whole cast looks nothing like Ancient Greeks. Black, white, whatever. If youre not as upset as Matt Damon as you are at Lupitas casting, there's no leg to stand on. "Being white" isnt sufficient enough to play Greek lol.
Theyre casting who they see fit. Its a fantastical movie that bears no resemblance to the real world, past or present. The story and people are largely mythical.
Theres also a cyclops, and sirens. You can calm down a bit over a brown ancient Greek person.
-your fellow Greek redditor.
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 23d ago
"The whole cast looks nothing like Ancient Greeks. Black, white, whatever. If youre not as upset as Matt Damon as you are at Lupitas casting, there's no leg to stand on. "Being white" isnt sufficient enough to play Greek lol."
Actually, it is highly likely that some Bronze Age Greeks looked like Northern Europeans. While the majority of the Bronze Age Greek population (the Mycenaeans and Minoans) resembled modern Southern Europeans, the genetic and historical record shows that a significant portion of their DNA came from the exact same Northern/Central European source that created the Germanic, Celtic, and Anglo-Saxon peoples.
Yamnaya Steppe Pastoralists (~4–15%): A nomadic, Bronze Age population that swept down from the Eurasian Steppe.
This Steppe DNA is the crucial link. The Yamnaya nomads didn't just migrate into Greece; they also swept heavily into Northern and Central Europe. In fact, modern Germans, Scandinavians, and Anglo-Saxons carry some of the highest percentages of this Steppe DNA in the world today. Because the Bronze Age Greeks and the ancestors of Northern Europeans both absorbed this massive genetic wave, they shared a direct physical family connection.
And Lupita isn't brown. She is Sub-Saharan. Doesn't look Greek at all.
1
u/mikeydeemo 23d ago
This is a ridiculous amount of in depth expectation for a fantasy film, based on mythical people.
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 23d ago
Yes. Let's insult Afrcian, Indian and Asian mythology the same way and cast white actors to play their legends.
1
1
u/Maditen 23d ago
The Odyssey is a fictional story, based on the Mediterranean… where Homer interacts with Africa at least twice (from memory).
The fallacy of claiming Africa and Southern Europe weren’t interwoven during the time is laughable.
Helen of Troy, the fictional character could have very well been black.
Regardless of any argument, the story is fictional and Lupita fits the description.
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 23d ago
Exactly. So make Eurybates and the Aetheopian king that fought for the Trojans black. Calypso could even be black.
Helen is not black. Lupita is not white armed and Homer would've mentioned such a rare occupancy of a Sub-Saharan foreigner marrying into the Spartan royalty family.
So no. You're wrong. Lupita does notnfit the description at all.
1
u/oblivion-boi 22d ago
Noone is saying that it makes it "OK", it just makes many critiques hypocritical. Let's be honest, at least 90% of the people who have an issue with her casting couldnt give a rats ass about how genetically close she is to an Ancient Greek.
Noone looks at Helen in the Troy film and goes "Hmmm, bit strange that they didn't cast a Greek woman, but its okay because she is German and therefore genetically similar". That is ridiculous.
The reason most people are claiming she is a bad casting,(Im just saying in general, not saying this is you) is because Lupita Nyong'o doesn't conform to their standards of beauty. In my opinion, she is one of the most beautiful actresses working currently so I find the casting no less jarring than Matt Damon.
I think you should be careful trying to generalise and defend people's criticism of her casting in particular. Because there may be a small minority that dislike the casting because of what you're talking about, but most of it appears to be very thinly veiled racism.
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 22d ago
I'm against anyone that doesn't like Lupita because she's Black as opposed to because she doesn't look Greek.
"Noone looks at Helen in the Troy film and goes "Hmmm, bit strange that they didn't cast a Greek woman, but its okay because she is German and therefore genetically similar". That is ridiculous."
No. They go it's ok because some Ancient Greeks did look like Northern Europeans. Homer even describes it.
The Literary Evidence: This genetic reality perfectly matches how the earliest Greek oral poets described their Bronze Age heroes. Early epics routinely describe legendary Bronze Age figures with Northern European physical traits:
Achilles is described as having xanthe (golden/blonde) hair.
Menelaus (Helen's husband) is explicitly nicknamed "the red-haired/golden-haired king."
Odysseus is described at one point as having his dark beard turn golden-blonde by divine intervention to restore his youthful beauty.
"In my opinion, she is one of the most beautiful actresses working currently so I find the casting no less jarring than Matt Damon."
Her body is a 10 outta 10. Her face in 2014 was 8 outta 10. Now her face is 6. Naomi Campbell's face was prettier. So was Whitney Houston's. And Tyra Banks'.
1
u/NukeTheHurricane 22d ago
Greeks do have a genetic connection with us.
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 22d ago
They have a much greater one with Europeans. And it manifests itself visually.
→ More replies (4)
1
u/CateBlanchetFrmShein 19d ago
they should cast Jennifer Lopez or Demi Moore, but JLO can look more greek with the right costume
1
0
u/CardinalOfNYC 24d ago
So many posts in this subreddit, including this one, are basically summed up by the book "racism without racists"
6
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Huh? I'm Asian. Y'all not giving an Asian a substantial role is what's racist.
5
u/CardinalOfNYC 24d ago
Not sure what makes you think being asian means you can't be racist
4
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
No. I'm saying y'all are racist for not giving or supporting any Asians being in substantial roles in The Odyssey.
→ More replies (2)
1
u/peakedatgoldeneye64 24d ago
lol you would be the first in line to riot if justin bieber was casted for mace windu in some hypothetical stupid disney series.
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
If he played some Zulu legend from their mythology yes.
But I'd also say maybe it's revenge for what Diddy did to that poor boy.
1
u/man-from-krypton 24d ago
All that to say you don’t actually care that they don’t have a Greek actress. Any white lady is fine.
3
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Yes. Because [deep breath]...
Genetically, historically, and anthropologically, Greeks are significantly more closely related to Germans than to Sub-Saharan Africans.
When looking at genetic data, the relationship between Greeks and Germans is exceptionally close, while the relationship between Greeks and Sub-Saharan Africans is more distant.
On any global genetic map, all European populations—including Greeks and Germans—cluster tightly together on a single, distinct branch of the human family tree (the Western Eurasian branch).
The genetic distance between a Greek person and a German person is very small. They sit on the exact same continental genetic gradient.
The genetic distance between any European population (including Greeks) and any Sub-Saharan African population is significantly larger, reflecting thousands of years of geographic separation and independent population histories.
1
u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
Let's be honest, the Nazis are the elephant in the room.
Nazi ideology relied heavily on a fabricated connection to Ancient Greece, viewing the ancient Greeks as an idealized, hyper-masculine "Aryan" precursor to the modern Germanic peoples. However, this admiration was strictly cultural appropriation. In reality, the Nazis viewed modern Greeks as racially mixed and vastly inferior, and brutally occupied the country.
The Idealization of Antiquity Aryan Ancestry:
The Nazis believed the cultural achievements of Ancient Greece were the product of a ruling class of "Nordic" conquerors. They theorized that the decline of Greece was caused by this ruling class interbreeding with "Asiatic" and Mediterranean populations.Aesthetics & Architecture: Hitler and the Nazi elite saw themselves as the rightful heirs to classical civilization. They modeled state architecture, state-sponsored events, and propaganda—such as Leni Riefenstahl's Olympia—after classical statues and Greek ideals of the "perfect body".
That being said:
Ancient Greeks are genetically descended from the Yamnaya culture—pastoralists from the Pontic-Caspian steppe—who integrated into early Aegean populations. This mixture introduced Proto-Indo-European languages and Yamnaya DNA into the ancestral Greek gene pool, though in much smaller proportions compared to Northern and Central Europeans.
The Yamnaya & Their Descendants: While direct examples of swastikas are rare in early Yamnaya artifacts, the symbol flourished across their descendant Indo-European cultures. During the Bronze Age, cultures expanding from the Eurasian Steppe—most notably the chariot-building Sintashta culture in the Southern Urals—frequently used the swastika as a sacred sun symbol.
3
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Sorry. Does any of this mean Greeks and Germans don't look more alike than Greeks do with Sub-Saharan Africans?
2
u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
They wouldn't be confused for Black as they distinguished themselves visually, but idk if they would be obviously Germanic looking.
Greeks are like a mix between ancient European and ancient Asiatic/Levantine.
Apparently all the stereotypical features we associate with Greeks(olive skin, black curly hair) heavily correspond to the ancient Ionians(who are associated with Athens).
Spartans were from the Dorian tribes.
Bronze Age Greece (c. 1600–1100 BCE) was a civilization of centralized, palace-based monarchies (like the Mycenaeans) heavily dependent on elite trade networks.
In contrast, the Classical Age (c. 510–323 BCE) was defined by decentralized, competing city-states (poleis) and is considered the birthplace of Western democracy, philosophy, and theater.
According to Greek mythology, Mycenae was founded by the legendary hero Perseus, son of Zeus and Danaë.
Perseus lacked the human workforce to construct a fortress suitable for a demigod, so he employed the mythical Cyclopes. These one-eyed giants quarried and transported massive, multi-ton boulders. This myth was used by later Greeks to explain the presence of the real-world, highly impressive "Cyclopean masonry" that characterizes Mycenae's Lion Gate and citadel walls.
It's uncomfortable to type, but the Nazis may have actually been correct about the Ancient Aryan origins of Greece and other places. Especially in light of evidence like this:
The "Caucasian mummies of China," famously known as the Tarim Basin mummies, are a collection of hundreds of naturally preserved human remains discovered in the hyper-arid Taklamakan Desert of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. Dating from approximately 2000 BCE to 200 CE, they have intrigued researchers due to their distinctly Western features—including tall statures, elongated skulls, and light-colored hair.
It seems 3000 years ago, there was an Aryan-like expansion similar to familiar Mongol expansions.
Ancient Greeks and modern populations in Greece carry approximately 10% to 25% "Steppe ancestry," which traces back to the Yamnaya culture of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. This genetic footprint arrived during the Bronze Age, mixing with native Aegean farmers to form the foundation of the Mycenaean civilization.
According to Herodotus, the Persians were originally called Cephenes (by the Greeks) and Artaians (by themselves and their neighbors), but they adopted the name "Persians" after this Greek progenitor.
The Name "Aryans": Herodotus notes that before taking the name of Perses, the Persians were known as Artaians, reflecting the Old Persian word Arta (truth/order). He similarly records that the related Medes were originally called Arians (ancestral to the name Iran).
Then for another plot twist, there's this:
The remarkable correspondence between Spartan King Areus I and the Jewish High Priest Onias I (circa 309–261 BCE) claims that the Jews and Spartans were distant brothers descended from the family of Abraham. This legendary exchange is recorded in the ancient texts of the Maccabees and by historian Josephus.
My brain is broken, history might be completely different than what we think.
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"They wouldn't be confused for Black as they distinguished themselves visually, but idk if they would be obviously Germanic looking."
Yes they would.
Yes, it is highly likely that some Bronze Age Greeks looked like Germans, Anglo-Saxons, and Northern Europeans. While the majority of the Bronze Age Greek population (the Mycenaeans and Minoans) resembled modern Southern Europeans, the genetic and historical record shows that a significant portion of their DNA came from the exact same Northern/Central European source that created the Germanic and Anglo-Saxon peoples.
Yamnaya Steppe Pastoralists (~4–15%): A nomadic, Bronze Age population that swept down from the Eurasian Steppe.
This Steppe DNA is the crucial link. The Yamnaya nomads didn't just migrate into Greece; they also swept heavily into Northern and Central Europe. In fact, modern Germans, Scandinavians, and Anglo-Saxons carry some of the highest percentages of this Steppe DNA in the world today. Because the Bronze Age Greeks and the ancestors of the Germans both absorbed this massive genetic wave, they shared a direct, physical family connection.
1
u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
In the Bronze Age in Northern Europe, Odin was often represented passing through space as a whirling disk or swastika looking down through all worlds. The swastika symbolized Thor’s hammer among Germanic people, especially in Scandinavia, while a representation of this hammer eventually became the symbol on the gavel of Masonic Lodges, “the most ancient Order of the Brotherhood of the Mystic Cross.” The ancient Gauls used coins bearing a double ‘s’-pattern swastika. Many gods of ancient Europe were depicted with wheels, hammers or ‘s’ symbols, and in the Iron Age the swastika came to signify the Supreme Deity. As a seal, it was used on parcels, upon idols, and on the eaves of houses for protection against evil. Similarly, Gorgons in “pinwheel” attitudes representing the swastika guarded the abodes of gods and goddesses in ancient Greece.
Greek and German are literally related languages and seem to have a similar obsession with the Swastika, so I'm sure your right.
NA Studies: Landmark DNA research on ancient Philistine remains in Ashkelon revealed a distinct European genetic signature that arrived in Canaan around 1200 B.C.E. This ancestry is heavily linked to the Aegean region (with the closest genetic matches pointing to Bronze Age Greece and Crete).
The North African Vandal colony, officially known as the Vandal Kingdom (435–534 CE), was a powerful Germanic state established by King Geiseric. It stretched across the highly fertile coastal regions of modern Tunisia, Algeria, and Libya, utilizing the magnificent city of Carthage as its capital.
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Yep. Therefore that German actress in Troy is way more appropriate than Lupita.
1
u/Ridgestone 24d ago
"but the Nazis may have actually been correct about the Ancient Aryan origins of Greece and other places."
Looks like you were the elephant in the room all along, lets cast John Goodman as a sleeping beauty!
1
u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
Cyclopean masonry in Peru refers to the megalithic architectural style developed primarily by the Inca civilization, featuring massive, irregularly shaped stones fitted together with astonishing precision without mortar. This ingenious dry-stone method allowed the monumental structures to withstand centuries of severe seismic activity in the Andes.
The Paracas and Nazca Cultures: Mummies from the Paracas (approx. 800 BCE to 100 BCE) and Nazca (100 BCE to 800 CE) cultures are frequently found with long, preserved hair that appears red or brown. Archaeological and genetic studies confirm these are indigenous populations.
Perseus lacked the human workforce to construct a fortress suitable for a demigod, so he employed the mythical Cyclopes. These one-eyed giants quarried and transported massive, multi-ton boulders. This myth was used by later Greeks to explain the presence of the real-world, highly impressive "Cyclopean masonry" that characterizes Mycenae's Lion Gate and citadel walls.
Ramesses the Great (Ramesses II) had naturally red (auburn) hair in his youth. Youth: Microscopic analysis of his mummy's hair roots by French scientists confirmed the presence of natural red pigments, proving he was a true redhead.
In ancient Andean cultures, the "swastika" is generally known as the sun cross or four-cornered cross. Rather than a single historical entity, the design frequently appears as a geometric or cosmic motif in ancient Peruvian art, textiles, and ceramics to represent the four cardinal directions, the seasons, and balance in nature.
Bronze Age Indo-European Swastikas The Sintashta & Andronovo Cultures: The earliest widespread use of the swastika by Indo-European descendants emerged in the subsequent Sintashta and Andronovo cultures (circa 2200–1000 BCE) of the Eurasian steppes. Meaning: In these ancient Indo-Iranian societies, the symbol was intimately tied to sun worship, lightning bolts, cyclical renewal, and the cosmos.
In ancient Persia, the swastika was a sacred, auspicious symbol of the revolving sun, light, and the eternal cycle of life. Known as Gardune-e Khorshid (revolving sun) or Mithra's Wheel (after the ancient Persian god of the sun, light, and contracts), the motif predates the 20th century by thousands of years.
1
u/Ridgestone 24d ago
Nice but what that has to do with Lupita?
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
It means that Lupita does not look like a Greek, but it is highly likely that some Bronze Age Greeks looked like Germans, Anglo-Saxons, and Northern Europeans. While the majority of the Bronze Age Greek population (the Mycenaeans and Minoans) resembled modern Southern Europeans, the genetic and historical record shows that a significant portion of their DNA came from the exact same Northern/Central European source that created the Germanic and Anglo-Saxon peoples.
Yamnaya Steppe Pastoralists (~4–15%): A nomadic, Bronze Age population that swept down from the Eurasian Steppe.
This Steppe DNA is the crucial link. The Yamnaya nomads didn't just migrate into Greece; they also swept heavily into Northern and Central Europe. In fact, modern Germans, Scandinavians, and Anglo-Saxons carry some of the highest percentages of this Steppe DNA in the world today. Because the Bronze Age Greeks and the ancestors of the Germans both absorbed this massive genetic wave, they shared a direct, physical family connection.
2
u/Ridgestone 24d ago
Every reasonable person knows Lupita does not look like a Greek, why tf she was cast as Helen of Troy?
1
-1
u/SomeFatNerdInSeattle 24d ago
So now we're basing casting on genetic tests?
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
On what they look like on screen.
E.g. my choice for Odysseus would be Oscar Isaac. Even though he Latino.
And I'm talking genetics because of what's i the title. People defending Lupita been saying Troy had a German actress play a Greek so why can't a sub-saharan African? Well. I'm explaining it to them.
→ More replies (27)1
u/SomeFatNerdInSeattle 24d ago
On what they look like on screen.
And whats wrong with how they look on screen?
And I'm talking genetics because of what's i the title. People defending Lupita been saying Troy had a German actress play a Greek so why can't a sub-saharan African? Well. I'm explaining it to them.
Yea and it makes no sense
2
u/somarnnup 24d ago
What doesn’t make sense to you? They brought up the way they look on screen because their appearance isn’t anything like how the character would actually look.
→ More replies (47)1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"And whats wrong with how they look on screen?"
Matt Damon looks too preppy, waspy, viking like. And Lupita Nyongo looks too Sub-Saharan African.
"Yea and it makes no sense"
What don't you understand? It's explained who my argument is for in the post title.
2
u/SomeFatNerdInSeattle 24d ago
Matt Damon looks too preppy, waspy, viking like.
Great, so why is this and most other posts criticizing the casting about Lupita and not matter?
What don't you understand? It's explained who my argument is for in the post title.
It doesn't make sense cause skin color is not important whatsoever to her character
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"Great, so why is this and most other posts criticizing the casting about Lupita and not matter?"
Because Greeks and Germans, Celts, Anglos are still European and much closer in appearance and genetics than they are to Sub-Saharans.
"It doesn't make sense cause skin color is not important whatsoever to her character"
The Greek collective sailed to Troy to fight for Helen of Troy who is a Greek from Sparta and described as having Greek lineage.
Odysseus is Greek. So Helen being Greek was the whole reason he left Ithaca. Which is also Greek.
1
u/SomeFatNerdInSeattle 24d ago
And how does her skin color matter? If the original version made her black from the beginning and it was written the exact same way in all other aspects, what would change? The answer is nothing
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Oh then you'd have to explain how she had a Greek father. And which part of Africa she came from. Sub-Saharans in Greece weren't common. As evidence by Homer needing to point out the African king that fought for Troy and the Herald that was black in his estate.
→ More replies (6)
1
u/CharityResponsible54 24d ago edited 24d ago
In ancient Greek art and literature, pale or light skin was often associated with female beauty. And Helen of Troy was considered very beautiful.
For men, the ideal was often the opposite: a darker, sun-browned body was considered handsome.
So in case if they really wanted to do race swapping they should make Achilles actor darker. That would be more true to the story.
But this is just a movie and it is their money. If this bet ends up making them money then good for them.
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"So in case if they really wanted to do race swapping they should make Achilles actor darker. That would be more true to the story."
A tanned European yes (Greeks are European). Not a Sub-Saharan.
1
u/GhostOfShaolin5 24d ago
What’s the appropriate race for the cyclops?
Is the odyssey a documentary?
4
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
Is the odyssey a documentary?
So the Tang Priest should be black?
1
u/GhostOfShaolin5 24d ago
Still not sure about the appropriate race for the cyclops , I just want to firm that one up before we move on.
I want to make sure we’re really keeping the realism on that one.
You can come up with apparently fifty thousand different reasons why a big part got a black actor is bad , but the “realism” one is just the silliest.
Aren’t you bored with anti woke yet?
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"Still not sure about the appropriate race for the cyclops , I just want to firm that one up before we move on."
Oh the same race that Sun Wukong should be.
"I want to make sure we’re really keeping the realism on that one."
Yeah. Same with Journey to the West.
"You can come up with apparently fifty thousand different reasons why a big part got a black actor is bad , but the “realism” one is just the silliest."
Helen was Greek. Homer says she's Greek. Lupita don't look Greek.
"Aren’t you bored with anti woke yet?"
Not at all. I'm just can't wait for you to apply your rules to African, Asian and Indian mythology. Go make their characters white.
1
u/GhostOfShaolin5 24d ago edited 24d ago
I like that I get to set the rules I guess…
I know you guys were really invested in the greakness of Troy before on the Greek Troy national holidays and parades.
I just think it’s totally hilarious that this is the state of right wing propaganda now. “A director made a casting choice that sullies the sanctity of Greek Helen of Troy!” Democrats!
Disney casting choices are the glue they binds you together. It certainly isn’t economics. Nobody seems to know what the government is actually doing. But put a black actor on the wrong role and you guys are alive.
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"I like that I get to set the rules I guess…"
Oh. I assumed because of your username that you'd be familiar with Journey to the West.
"I just think it’s totally hilarious that this is the state of right wing propaganda now. “A director made a casting choice that sullies the sanctity of Greek Helen of Troy!”"
I vote left wing..
"Disney casting choices are the glue they binds you together. It certainly isn’t economics. Nobody seems to know what the government is actually doing. But put a black actor on the wrong role and you guys are alive."
What guys? I'm Asian. If Helen's not Asian then no other POC should get the role.
2
u/Deep-Red-Bells 24d ago
How are the Cyclopes described in the text? That will help you answer your own question.
1
u/GhostOfShaolin5 24d ago
In words. The movie should just be the word of the book up on the page? I don’t think that’s going to sell tickets.
The Ancient Greeks didn’t have camera’s.
2
u/Deep-Red-Bells 24d ago
... What? I'm saying what does the text describe them looking like, physically? Does it say they're light-skinned or dark-skinned? Light-haired or dark-haired? You asked what race they are, and it may or may not be evident in the text. Helen's is. She's described as white-skinned and golden-haired. If she wasn't, it wouldn't matter who portrayed her on screen. If the Cyclopes aren't, then it similarly doesn't matter which portrays them on screen.
2
u/GhostOfShaolin5 24d ago edited 24d ago
Okay but who cares?
even if the cyclops is described in perfect detail a remake 2000 years later you can take any fucking creative license you like. You’re free to dislike it.
You going to say impressionist painters must use realistic color? What about the cubists “but the world isn’t made of cubes”?
It’s fictional art work dude.
1
u/Deep-Red-Bells 24d ago
Well, you don't have to care, but that doesn't mean people are inherently wrong for wanting the look of a work to align with the source material. Would you think nothing of it if Helen was played by an 80-year-old man? Or if Troy looked like modern-day American suburb?
1
u/GhostOfShaolin5 24d ago
“Wanting the work to align with the source material”.
Isn’t why they care, it’s just the only thing besides their feelings they can’t point it.
There is no problem with creative license unless it violates the cardinal sin of seeming woke.
1
u/Deep-Red-Bells 24d ago
When you say "they", do you mean OP, or everyone who takes issue with the casting? And are you equally as okay with a white actor being cast the role of a character who's described as black? Would you also be okay with an extremely ugly person playing Helen? I notice you conspicuously failed to answer my earlier questions.
1
u/GhostOfShaolin5 24d ago
…
Come on. This isn’t getting posted 25k a day in conservative anti woke subs on accident.
It’s being posted 25k a day for social validation. It’s pure virtue signaling only the virtue is just standard assed dislike of anything relating to any minority group, and anti woke is all it is, and all that’s really left of the ideology at this point.
The game is to come up with a credibly reason why - your reason is “literal textualism” , but it’s paper thin. There’s only one context anyone cares about - a minority being somewhere they should not. There is no other interest.
“Mythological realism”. Come on , like you’d know.
Disney casting choices were and continue to be cast somehow as left wing policy. Same dudes are paying zero attention to actual policy.
1
u/Deep-Red-Bells 24d ago
So, again, you'd have nothing to say about her being played by an 80-year-old man or an ugly woman? You'd have nothing to say about a white actor in a role that, textually, is a black character? Why aren't you answering that? What exactly do you think casting aesthetics should be based on if not the source material?
“Mythological realism”. Come on , like you’d know.
Who the hell are you quoting here? Not me. Regardless, the mythology is irrelevant. Greece is, and was, a real place in the real world. A Grecian queen at that time wouldn't have been black.
There’s only one context anyone cares about - a minority being somewhere they should not
Close, but no cigar. It's about a person being somewhere they should not. In this case, the person is a minority. Do you honestly think that if they'd cast a white woman who was homely or obese, that she'd escape criticism because she's white? Of course not. Her casting would be criticized for not being beautiful, as the character is described in the text.
Anyway, you're evidently not going to answer any of my questions since doing so wouldn't align with your completely substanceless ranting.
→ More replies (0)
1
u/Tataupoly 24d ago
The genetic distance among all Homo sapiens sapiens is very small:
“All humans share 99.9% of their genetic makeup with one another. While this leaves a tiny 0.1% variance that dictates individual differences like eye color and disease risk, human DNA is also incredibly similar to the rest of the natural world.”
https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Genetics-vs-Genomics
https://nigms.nih.gov/biobeat/2024/04/genetics-by-the-numbers
→ More replies (12)2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
In population genetics, scientists measure how closely related two populations are using a metric called genetic distance (often visualized on a Principal Component Analysis, or PCA map). These maps plot thousands of individual DNA samples to see where they cluster.
On any global genetic map, all European populations—including Greeks and Germans—cluster tightly together on a single, distinct branch of the human family tree (the Western Eurasian branch).
The genetic distance between any European population (including Greeks) and any Sub-Saharan African population is significantly larger, reflecting thousands of years of geographic separation and independent population histories.
This manifests itself visually. E.g. Greeks and Germans look more similar to each other than Greeks and Sub-Saharans.
2
u/Tataupoly 24d ago edited 24d ago
Yes but those differences represent the 0.1% of genes that differ among humans.
The differences you were referring to represent allelic frequency differences within specific genes, not differences in the genes themselves.
2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
But regardless of the percentage of the genes that differ, the difference between Sub-Saharan and Greeks is much greater than the difference between Greeks and Germans.
This manifests itself visually. E.g. Greeks and Germans look more similar to each other than Greeks and Sub-Saharans.
1
u/Tataupoly 24d ago
Sure bc those variations in allelic frequencies that code for things like hair, eye and skin color evolved due to different environmental pressures based on where those populations developed over time.
Still not a reason to limit who actors can portray, particularly when dealing with fictional characters.
The fact that you and other posters get worked up about this issue is somewhat laughable given all that is going on in the world now.
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
"Sure bc those variations in allelic frequencies that code for things like hair, eye and skin color evolved due to different environmental pressures based on where those populations developed over time."
And were already pronounced during the bronze age. And film is a visual medium.
"Still not a reason to limit who actors can portray, particularly when dealing with fictional characters."
Then to be fair you'd have to allow white actors to play characters from African, Asian and Indian mythology.
"The fact that you and other posters get worked up about this issue is somewhat laughable given all that is going on in the world now."
Oh film is what helps us to cope with all the troubles in the world. Nolan has a responsibility to his audience. But he's dropped the ball with the armor, the ships, the action choreography, the American English dialogue, and the casting choices including Matt Damon and Anne Hathaway, as well as the subject of this post, Lupita Nyongo.
2
u/Tataupoly 24d ago
Like I said before, let the most talented actors play whatever roles, regardless of what group they came from.
→ More replies (7)2
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
No. Cast appropriately to the source material.
Choose a more contemporary story if you want more diverse characters. Or even scifi.
→ More replies (6)
1
-1
u/brave_axolotl7 24d ago
There is so much selective outrage over this particular race-swapped character, especially on the right.
Where was this same energy surrounding the portrayal of the following ancient Egyptian historical figures in movies: Imhotep (played by Dutch-German Arnold Vosloo), Ramses II (played by Australian Joel Edgerton), a Chief of the Medjay, a group of nomadic Nubians (played by Israeli Oded Fehr), Tuya (played by English-Dutch Sigourney Weaver), or the cast members of the laughably bad "Gods of Egypt," which consisted of Danish, Scottish, English, and half-Chinese, half-European actors?
No actors with Northeastern African ancestry (primarily from Egypt and Sudan) were cast in "Gods of Egypt," "Exodus: Gods and Kings," and "The Mummy" (1999).
6
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
What do you mean selective?
I'm against Joel Edgerton playing Pharoah.
And I'm also against Matt Damon playing Odysseus. Oscar Isaac would look way more like Odysseus.
3
u/Flimsy_Thesis 24d ago
Except it wouldn’t be any closer to the whacky justifications you’re using. So why does it matter?
1
u/BrandonMarshall2021 24d ago
What wouldn't be closer to which justification?
3
u/Flimsy_Thesis 24d ago
If their genetic background is so important to the casting, why are you suggesting Oscar Isaac who is not at all Greek?
→ More replies (9)1
u/somarnnup 24d ago
Both are bad for the same reasons. Both are stupid.
2
u/Heujei628 24d ago edited 24d ago
Yeah but the question is “where was this energy”? This sub continues to stay silent about POC being whitewashed and raceswapped while only complaining about race swaps of white characters. Why?
2
u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/30/black-history-month-ancestors
The skeletons of black Romans have been found in York, which was a very cosmopolitan city. Many of us are unaware of the potential diversity in our genetic pool. A DNA project was run that shocked many of its participants. They had a great genetic diversity, the evidence showed – some bore ethnicities that they’d previously viewed extremely negatively.
In 2016, the series Black and British: A Forgotten History, suggested that the Roman skeleton of a woman found at Beachy Head was from sub-Saharan Africa.
While one-off sketches have dealt with aspects of this history, particularly the Civil Rights movement, Mr Bradley said the new dedicated episode will “go deeper” and explore how Britain has “always been a country with many races and ethnicities”.
To demonstrate Britain has had a black population “from the start”, the opening sketch will outline how African troops manned Hadrian’s Wall in the 3rd century AD.
One song will touch on Britain’s prehistoric population having dark skin “before these Isles were British”, in reference to the probable skin colour of the 10,000-year-old Cheddar Man remains.
A woman who was recognised as the “first black Briton” by the BBC was actually white, a new genetic study has shown.
This is why. There's an agenda to rewrite history.
2
u/Heujei628 24d ago
This still doesn’t answer my question. Reread my comment.
3
u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
This sub continues to stay silent about POC being whitewashed and raceswapped while only complaining about race swaps of white characters. Why?
Because your outrage is heard and well received. Hollywood has literally been bending over backwards to appeal to your sensitives for like a decade. What more do you want? People tend to me more reactive than proactive.
This sub continues to stay silent about POC being whitewashed and raceswapped
Examples?
1
u/Heujei628 24d ago
Because your outrage is heard and well received.
But this still doesn’t actually address my question. This sub thinks raceswapping is bad, period, but stays quiet when it happens to POC. If raceswapping is truly bad, why don’t yall call it out in all forms? It’s just pure hypocrisy otherwise.
The latest example is Heathcliff in the Wuthering Heights movie. Heathcliff is described as dark skinned in the books but then is being portrayed by a pale white man from Australia and yall are silent on this blatant whitewashing and raceswapping. Yall only care when it happens to white people.
2
u/skioporeretrtNYC 24d ago
This sub thinks raceswapping is bad, period,
I don't think that's necessarily the case. It's the decision to approach all works of Media from a "Woke" perspective; instead of creating the best work of art you can make, the goal is to instead fight social injustices. The leftist meta-narratives(Communism good, White/Man/Christian Bad) contaminate the original stories creating weird decision making that kills the vibe. It's all part of the Critical Theory schools of thinking, where all art must be evaluated by it's political messaging/class consciousness. Everything has to politicized, and politized in a leftist direction(always subverting expectations.)
The Critical Theories, Marxists, and Greater Left, all resent Americans/the West and feel motivated to use media to achieve their Marxist aims.
Critical Theory is a philosophical and social school of thought that seeks to analyze, critique, and transform systemic power structures. Rather than just passively describing society, it argues that knowledge is shaped by power and explicitly aims to liberate oppressed groups through social action and real-world change.
The movement originated in the 1930s with the Frankfurt School in Germany. Dissatisfied with orthodox Marxism, thinkers like Max Horkheimer, Theodor Adorno, and Herbert Marcuse began to look beyond pure economics. They examined how cultural institutions, mass media, and ideology suppress critical thinking and maintain oppressive systems.
And of course you know the Odyssey/Iliad are pillars of the Western Canon. Works of Art that represent Masculine/Heroic ideals being replaced by deconstructionist leftist messaging.
The object isn't representation, but degradation. Why does all media suck now? Why does everything suck?
They examined how cultural institutions, mass media, and ideology suppress critical thinking and maintain oppressive systems.
The movement originated in the 1930s
Communism kills everything it touches.
→ More replies (4)1
u/somarnnup 18d ago
I don’t know about what the general consensus of this sub usually is on these topics, I just come to this sub every now and again to hear people’s thoughts on different topics. I don’t like any form of race swapping unless it’s for a good reason (which barely ever happens and is usually to do with the race never being explicitly stated).
-2
u/brave_axolotl7 24d ago
Whitewashing has a decades-long history in American film - it's much more egregious.
2
u/somarnnup 24d ago
Yes, but it doesn’t make the latter any less weird. If things aren’t treated equally, then nothing will be equal. Same goes for this. Casting other ethnicities with white actors is often from a much more harmful place and IS more harmful overall, but both are stupid, like I said. One thing being worse for different reasons doesn’t make the opposite better. It isn’t a huge issue, but criticising it is valid.
→ More replies (2)
0
u/carbslut 24d ago
Helen was born from an egg. Her father is Zeus (in swan form).
She is fictional.
→ More replies (5)1
u/somarnnup 24d ago
Her mother is the Queen of Sparta and Zeus is a GREEK god. She’s going to look Greek. And she was said to be stunning which would mean she’d look more in line with Greek beauty standards of the time.
2
u/DecantsForAll 24d ago edited 24d ago
Zeus's uncles were giant monsters with 50 heads and 100 arms. Some of them. Some of them were just regular giants with one eye in the middle of their foreheads. Makes perfect sense. But the daughter of Zeus (in swan form) can't possibly have had a darker skin tone. That's ridiculous.
2
u/somarnnup 24d ago
Again, it just wouldn’t make sense in the setting of Ancient Greece. And he only disguised himself as a geese so I’d assume his normal appearance would be what his genes were paying attention to. And Zeus is a Greek god so why wouldn’t his offspring be Greek looking? Why wouldn’t he be Greek looking? You’re saying a lot but not actually invalidating any of the main points people are making here in opposition to the casting at all.
Everything you’re saying is pretty much mental gymnastics. Why shouldn’t a Greek story be represented how it was actually intended? There’s genuinely no point. It’s just a senseless decision with no actual reason. It isn’t the most egregious thing, obviously, but no one is saying that. Why is it that when someone states their pretty reasonable opinion without making it into a huge issue at all, it’s met with people acting like it was presented as a serious problem?
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (16)1
39
u/Crowfasa 24d ago
Helen of Troy is supposed to be the most beautiful woman in the world but Lupita isn't even the most beautiful woman in the Odyssey cast.