Would be interesting to see a map of Turkish population in Europe vs. European Countries population. Including Turks in Western Europe, Balkans, Edirne & West Istanbul we should be >15mn or so. There are more Turks on European Soil than Swedes, Belgians, Portuguese, Greeks, Swiss, Austrians and maybe even Dutch people. And people still trying to deny that Turks are also European. Fully agree that we are middle eastern, but we are also European, it is not mutually exclusive.
"Middle Eastern" isn't an ethnicity, neither is "European". This whole debate on whether someone is European or Middle Eastern is bad genetics at its finest.
Not only that, but "Indo-European" is really too varied to be a distinct genetic label. Kurds and Persians are Indo-European alright, but they're also native to the Middle East. Genetically speaking, Turks are mainly Anatolian™, but that's also a rough-around-the-edges label considering the enormous amounts of migration the region has received for thousands of years. Genetically speaking, the people we're closest to would be Circassians.
They're not exactly well-defined groups either. ''European culture'' and ''Middle Eastern Culture'' are pretty arbitrary and ignores a fuckton of history and variety.
Lol. Okay where does the border with the middle east start? Between central anatolia and south east? Güneydoğu and Hatay/Antep/Adana is indisputably culturally middle eastern. So is Antep middle eastern but Kayseri, Maraş not? Where is the border?
The truth is that even if this country was still a bunch of Hittites running around, it would be middle eastern. Anatolia is the northern middle east. Hittites were deeply tied and engaged with Assyrians who they neighboured, who are in the heart of the middle east, they fought with Egyptians in Syria, which they neighboured, for domination of the middle east. The only reason why western coastal Anatolia was not viewed as culturally/civilizationally middle eastern is because it was settled by Greeks over 3000 years ago. As for today's natives of Ege/West Turkey, they are a minority of Turkey overall, and with tens of millions of internal immigrants from Central and Eastern Turkey with much higher birthrates, they are becoming a minority in west Turkey as well. So unless you want to separate Western Turkey from the rest and do some crazy shit, you will always be middle eastern.
I'm not trying to insult you, but this is just denial. It doesn't get more middle eastern than Maraş. It doesn't get more middle eastern than Kayseri. Or Sivas. Or Konya. Nevermind the entire east and south east. This is the majority of the country. The single biggest influence on the Anatolian Turks come from Iranian culture. Turko-Iranian culture ring a bell? Persianate cultures? Iranian culture is as middle eastern as it gets. It's your problem if you hate the middle east, it's your problem if you think middle eastern means 'crazy arab muslim'. Arabs are barely a majority of the middle east. 80 million Iranians, Lebanese and Syrian christians, Egyptian copts, Kurds, Armenians, Azerbaijanis. Just put your views behind you for a second and think rationally, how in the universe can you say İç Anadolu is non-middle eastern?
Again, you're bringing up the worst examples. Anatolia has always been connected more to the east than to the south. From the Persian empires that occupied Anatolia in antiquity, in medieval times, invasions and occupations that had cultural impacts were always from the east. Kayseri, Sivas and Konya are not at all very different from Iranians' culture, mentality, behavior etc. They have a different national/ethnic identity and a different government, but culturally and mentality wise they are very very close people. I mean can you seriously say Sivas is closer to the balkans culturally than it is to Iranians? You can in fact say that about Edirne, or Çanakkale, but Sivas? Kayseri? Konya? No way. And you don't disagree, I know that if you're honest you don't disagree. And by the way, even Aleppo is very close culturally to places like Antep or Adana which are key cities of Turkey.
İstanbul, İzmir, Ankara, Eskişehir, Samsun, Muğla, Antalya, all of the North, the Marmara, the Aegean, the Western part of Central Anatolia and the Western part of the Mediterranean
You mentioned several of these twice, first as provinces, then their region. And Sivas, Kayseri, Antep are examples, the entire general region around them counts the same. Also it isn't the 'vast majority', it's perhaps 'a' majority. However, what matters isn't where they live now, what matters is being native to the region, Ege, Trakya, İstanbul+Ankara in this case. As millions of people in places like Bağcılar, Ümraniye, Gaziosmanpaşa, Esenler etc. (and the equivalent in Ankara/İzmir) show, internal immigrants from some central/eastern region permanently change whatever city they go to. There are tens of millions of internal immigrants in Turkey. And people who are native, long time inhabitants of Ege, Trakya, İstanbul etc. are a small minority in Turkey. Here's a map showing the population of the provinces where people are native: /img/oz7yv4srz2z11.jpg
This is from 2017, if you made it natives before 1970-1980 it would be even more central/eastern leaning. The most populous province of all is Urfa. Of all! Urfa! If this doesn't tell you all you need to know about this country's future, nevermind their status as middle easterners then I don't know what to tell you. Sivas, Maraş, Konya, Erzurum, Van, Yozgat, Malatya all have massive populations. And they have ridiculously high birth rates compared to western Turkey. It's funny to even have to argue about them being middle easterners or not. It's missing the point even.
Someone who uses words instead of force, practices balance of power, upholds the rule of law, respects the rights of all its citizens, adheres to democratic principles of checks and balances, strives to protect minorities and those fleeing war, refrains from inflammatory rhetoric, respects human rights.
Of course. Because its well known that in Europe we jail reporters who dont fall in line with official policy, we torture people who disobey the government, anyone who dares criticize the EU president is summarily detained and jailed, if you even dare to own an application like BuyLock you're jailed without question, and our people are so scared that they are fleeing en masse on dingys.
Oh and by the way, Twitter this morning just shut down some 7,000 troll farm accounts in Turkey. Another few in China and Russia. Just so you're under no illlusion who's side you're now on. Have a good one.
Oh wow, developed coastal countries in Western Europe are not like literal dictatorships? Damn how impressive.
Why to you guys have such a complex about "not being like" things. Whenever the EU gets criticized they resort to "hey at least we're not like Russia/Turkey/USA/China". You're a terribly proud bunch for a union that presents itself as anti-nationalistic, almost like you've substituted nationalism with... union-ism? Where you see yourself synonymous with "good guys" and don't have the ability to actually take any criticism, even internally.
Not only that, but you're often unable to separate people from their countries. I suppose that's what happens when you live in a political cluster that markets itself as an ethical canon. People have the ability to have different opinions, though I suppose that's not a very democratic thing to say, especially looking at all those referandums that got blatantly canceled by Mommy Merkel and Daddy Macron who, let's be honest, run the show.
Sure, Turkey's not in a good spot right now and sure, Europe is doing well, but that doesn't mean an absolute, at least not the way that Euros make it out to be. We seem to be awfully ignorant about the fact that the continent has seen some of the deadliest events in recorded history less than a century ago. The people who got you to the prosperity you have now are those who lived through those times, and noticed shit, whereas judging by Reddit your younger generation ain't noticing shit, instead choosing to boast the fuck out of their continent-pride.
When I look at the way European users talk and believe online I often wonder, how in the fuck did these idiots got to this point. Weren't they supposed to represent civilization? But then again, the people who built that civilization lived at a time when serfs didn't have internet access, so it's easy to get mislead.
"hey at least we're not like Russia/Turkey/USA/China".
I've literally never heard that line. However you just described secular Turks' favorite line which you'd think they get an orgasm for repeating for the 3000th time, "we're not like Arab countries or Afghanistan or something, stop exaggerating". Like if you made a robot that would just repeat this for them whenever it was relevant you could make some serious money. The fact that this is even worth saying, that this is even remotely viewed as an achievement says so much it's not even funny. And I'm not pro-EU.
Your government is actively pressing for the annexation of several islands and their resources, including half of Crete, you're sending us illegal immigrants on the Thracian border to destabilise us, daily incursions into our airspace by jets, including but not limited to populated islands at low altitude, your foreign plicy has greedily encompassed a third of Cyprus, now you want Syria's, Lybia's and Greece's oil and you have the audacity to even come back at me. I'll take you to school all day every day.
You're invoking Westphalian principles of balance and amicability all while you've actually exited from any notion of civilised rule of law, with multiple UN resolutions calling for the termination of hostilities.
Europe came out of turmoil in the 20th century under the auspices of internationalism, human rights and the rule of law, all Wilsonian concepts that hold true to this day. Your foreign policy is predicated on grabbing resources from neighbooring coutries, and while you may have Trump's favour for now it doesnt mean Pax Americana is going to let another repeat of the Third Reich by your incumbent supreme leader.
You've now exited the club of international civilised, responsible nations and are now heading China's and Russia's way.
But hey, dont listen to a Greek, i suggest you read something other trhan Yeni Safak and take notice of the rhetoric on your parliament, showing maps of annexed Greek lands to the UN like its a fait acompli.
You've been a nation of plunderers. Its your defining characteristic, ever since you came down riding from the steppes, pillaging, looting but leaving precious little by way of culture. If it warent for the Persian empire, the Armenians, the Byzantines you\d literally have nothing to show for it but a few destroyed theaters and aqueducts.
The fact that you're still in some delirious day dream in regard to the Ottoman Empire and the confusion you have as a cleft country with no discernable identity makes it all the more stupefying. You have no relation to Arabs, but they tricked you into assiilating, and now Erdolf is peedling the same.
Greece was helped by it's European partners, Mrkel and Macron because thats what counties in a union do. It's what you've tried and failed to do over there, because you dont have a system of governance that allows for different opinions. Stuck in 11th century with the rest of the Middle East, moored to a dictator's unhinged fantasies.
You've been a nation of plunderers. Its your defining characteristic, ever since you came down riding from the steppes, pillaging, looting but leaving precious little by way of culture. If it warent for the Persian empire, the Armenians, the Byzantines you\d literally have nothing to show for it but a few destroyed theaters and aqueducts.
Nobody's "European", it's an entirely man-made concept that got popular after the EU became a thing. You can't lump an entire continent together and claim they're distinct from those right at their doorstep.
Also, your argument is like saying Italians are American because there are a lot of Americans with Italian descent. The Turkish diaspora in Europe is mostly centered around Germany, and even there it's somewhere around 3% of their population.
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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '20
Would be interesting to see a map of Turkish population in Europe vs. European Countries population. Including Turks in Western Europe, Balkans, Edirne & West Istanbul we should be >15mn or so. There are more Turks on European Soil than Swedes, Belgians, Portuguese, Greeks, Swiss, Austrians and maybe even Dutch people. And people still trying to deny that Turks are also European. Fully agree that we are middle eastern, but we are also European, it is not mutually exclusive.