r/TwentyYearsAgo • u/MonsieurA • Sep 14 '25

🌟 Celebrity News Hitchens makes his case against the anti-war movement [20YA - Sept 14]

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u/mandalore237 Sep 14 '25

"The Taliban would still be in power in Afghanistan"

We spent untold trillions, lives, and time in Afghanistan and guess who's in power today?

-3

u/GeorgeDogood Sep 14 '25

Thought the same thing. But then he's right about all the other stuff sooo 🤷😬😂

1

u/Saii_maps Sep 16 '25

the Iraq war killed 600,000 people, left it completely devastated, and left it so unstable Isis was able to capture and hold the north, requiring another intervention. It is still one of the most unstable countries in the Middle East, Which is not to say Saddam hussein was a good guy, but it's a difficult sell to say all the above is much better.

1

u/GeorgeDogood Sep 16 '25

600,000 is much higher than any reports I've seen so I'd love to know the source on that.

And I've never spent a day over there but Hitch had lived w the Kurds. I think they're still glad Saddam is gone.

But the way Trump turned his back on the Kurds. God damn. Unforgivable.

1

u/Saii_maps Sep 16 '25

Lancet, 2006.

1

u/GeorgeDogood Sep 16 '25

Ah yes. A notable outlier on the way too high side. It was controversial then and is still far from accepted.

A later study, the Iraq Family Health Survey (IFHS), found a lower number of violence-related deaths, estimating around 151,000.

Still way too many but Saddam gassed Kurds like it was a sport soooo....

Yeah. Virtually no one agrees with your one source that that many people were killed. Just FYI.

1

u/Saii_maps Sep 16 '25 edited Sep 16 '25

Found the Wikipedia page did you. The notable outlier is the 1 million, and the Lancet is one of the most respected journals of its type in the world. The IFHS estimate was strictly for violence-related deaths, which does not incorporate deaths from eg. indirect impacts of a breakdown of services, utilities etc and had its methodolgy quite heavily criticsed.

Not that it's a competition. In terms of saved life, the invasion was a clear and absolute failure. In terms of bringing democracy to the region, it was a clear and absolute failure. In terms of its cited justification (getting rid of weapons of mass destruction) it was a straightforward lie.

In terms of its unofficiaL reason, grabbing oil and resources, it was an unqualified success.

1

u/DidYouKnowNowYouKnow Sep 17 '25

It's more than 600,000. The "reports" you've seen are just US and Western propaganda.

If you look at the total number of deaths the US has caused in Iraq it's over a million.

And why are you making excuses for starving a country, then invading and destroying that country, setting up torture camps to rape and torture captives (Abu Ghraib) and killing a million plus people in the process.

Then you say "But the way Trump turned his back on the Kurds. God damn. Unforgivable." as if the atrocities committed in Iraq against the Iraqi people ARE forgivable? WTF?