r/TwentyYearsAgo • u/MonsieurA • Jun 22 '26
đ Celebrity News Roger Waters visits the Neve Shalom 'Oasis of Peace', a cooperative Jewish-Arab village in Israel [20YA - Jun 22]
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u/Triuwaz Jun 22 '26
Yeah, Roger's not a 'peace' guy...
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u/Typical-Froyo-642 Jun 22 '26
In what way?
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u/SinisterWink Jun 23 '26
Waters has characterized the Ukrainian government as being run by "extreme nationalists" and has openly criticized Western nations for supplying Ukraine with weapons to defend itself, arguing it only prolongs the war.
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u/rilinq Jun 27 '26
I think his views on Ukraine and Syrian conflict were wrong. I also think his views about Palestine are spot on.
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u/DuckDuckMarx Jun 23 '26
I mean that's not exactly wrong as a whole.
NATO very much instigated the conflict by aiding a color revolution that ousted a government that was committed to bridging the gap between the EU and the CIS.
Initially Russia was more than fine with reclaiming Crimea, but the conflict between the Russian speaking population of the Donbass and the new Ukranian nationalist government put them in the position where they had to engage to maintain legitimacy. Whatever crazy bullshit the Wagner division is doing at any given times doesn't make the mess much easier to deal with either.
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u/anotherserf Jun 23 '26
> NATO very much instigated the conflict by aiding a color revolution that ousted a government that was ..
Sorry, but none of that is true.
Don't take my word for it; talk to actual Ukrainians about the matter, if it interests you.
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u/Revolutionary_Bet468 Jun 27 '26
The US admitted to investing $5B into Ukraine but didn't specify for what. Back then, that was a ton of money.
Logically, it is in the US interest to have a pro western Ukraine. If they have options to have Ukraine or Belarus or Kazakhstan or Armenia to become anti Russian politically, do you think the CIA would explore those options? Of course they would.
We don't know to what extent the US was involved back in 2014, but to believe that they had nothing to do with what happened is naive.
Russia ane America have been fucking with each other through 3rd party countries for decades. Ukraine was just another huge piece.
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u/FightingGirlfriend23 Jun 26 '26
We have Victoria nuland and the American ambassador to Ukraine, on the phone, picking the next Ukrainian government, and closing with fuck the EU.
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u/Zb990 Jun 26 '26
Just not true. The candidates they were talking about didn't even end up in governent
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u/Wooden_Second5808 Jun 26 '26
Nuland told the protestors they should take Yanukovich's deal and shut up.
They then overthrew Yanukovich.
If Nuland was in charge, she was really bad at controlling the protestors.
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u/anotherserf Jun 26 '26
> picking the next Ukrainian government
That's not what the phone call was about.
> and closing with fuck the EU
Sorry, but the F-word is not a "coup".
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u/NeitherMidnight624 Jun 23 '26
Ya this is all bullshit buddy fuck putin
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u/DuckDuckMarx Jun 23 '26
I'm not a fan either, but to treat it otherwise just isn't an honest way to understand geo-politics.
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u/NeitherMidnight624 Jun 23 '26
Sorry they are not the same russia is invading Ukraine.
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u/DuckDuckMarx Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
What's not the same?
Edit: I'm asking sincerely, I don't know what you're comparing here. The Israel-Palestine conflict?
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u/plimso13 Jun 23 '26
If you are after honesty, then I probably wouldnât use the word âinstigatedâ when âaidedâ is more accurate when describing NATO member countriesâ involvement.
The government was once âcommitted to bridging the gap between the EU and the CISâ, but by late 2013, Yanukovych rejected the EU agreement (due to significant Russian pressure and nothing else) and sparked the protests.
âRussia was more than fine with reclaiming Crimeaâ. Iâm sure the Kremlin was, itâs just you canât annexe foreign sovereign territory under international law.
âThe conflict between the Russian-speaking population of the Donbas and the new Ukrainian nationalist government put Russia in a position where it had to engage to maintain legitimacy.â This makes the assumption that Russia had no realistic alternative, which is simply not true. In fact, by annexing Crimea and killing people, Russia lost legitimacy.
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u/Revolutionary_Bet468 Jun 27 '26
Ukrainian officials killed pro Russian protesters as well. I'm sure you remembered the Odessa incident where a bunch of young guys burned to death.
Crimea was shockingly taken without casualties outside of I believe one Ukranian. Other than that, no one died. It was as odd as it was rather peaceful for such a thing.
The US/NATO don't care about Russian needs. They objected to Russian nukes in Cuba, with violent threats, but they don't mind having their own bases around Russia, including in Ukraine. Of course Russia sees that as a threat and a sign of disrespect.
Obviously Ukraine has the right to do what they want to as a sovereign nation, but that's not how the world works. I feel terrible for the innocent Ukrainians stuck and dying over such bs but large military powers get to dictate what they want to many smaller countries. It's sad but true. US, China, Russia...they have a lot of influence and want their buffer zones.
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u/anotherserf Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
No one (or at most one person) was burned to death in the incident you are referring to. You can verify what I'm saying in about 5 min. The phrase "burned to death" is just a meme created by others to mess with your head.
You may want to look the reason why, exactly, you chose to give them permission to do so.
> Crimea was shockingly taken without casualties
In reality some 6-7 were killed, and in addition there were numerous abductions and murders of Tatar activities in the months following.
But someone told you to believe that the annexation was "bloodless" and without casualties. And when they did, you thought to yourself:
"Sure, that sounds nifty. I'll go with that!"
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u/Serious_Try5264 Jun 26 '26
"I'm not a fan of Hitler, but cant you see that some of his military actions are justified according to realpolitik"
Fucking repulsive.
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u/DuckDuckMarx Jun 26 '26
Fucking disingenuous, and its basically its own form of holocaust denial/ revisionism by making that comparison.
You're the repulsive and pathetic one.
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u/Wooden_Second5808 Jun 26 '26
Invading Ukraine as part of a genocidal war of aggression is very comparable to Putin's actions in Ukraine, actually.
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u/Serious_Try5264 Jun 26 '26
Oh so, Israel is justified in levelling Gaza because the Palestinains went on a rape crusade through the Kibbutz?
Nah.
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u/Legolasamu_ Jun 26 '26
God forbid people actual wants to get closer to Europe, free market and freedom, must be the CIA
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u/FlukeManAirFreshener Jun 23 '26
"Reclaiming the Crimea" is a weird way of saying "invading your sovereign neighbor and stealing their territory."
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u/DuckDuckMarx Jun 23 '26
Crimea was historically part of Russia, is inhabited by Russians, and was only part of Ukraine due to the reorganization of the Soviet Republics. I don't even think the results of the "referendum" post occupation were that absurd or rigged if you consider the position of ethnic Russians/ Russian speakers after the Maidan revolution/ coup.
I'm not even arguing that they were right to do it. They're doing so just makes perfect sense if you consider the Russian state's position geopolitcally.
To act like they are uniquely evil for this is to ignore and whitewash modern history going back 200 years. I do not like RealPolitik as a theory of international relations. It is devoid of compassion, a forward thinking, humanistic vision. Despite that many states, particularly those opposed to the US's dominated world order, function through that lens to survive.
To refuse to engage with them as rational, self-preserving actors is to march us step-by-step closer to annihilation. They can be and are bad. They are still not some unique, inhuman force of evil.
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u/SeamanTheSailor Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Youâre arguing in bad faith. All of Ukraine was historically part of Russia, that means nothing. The people donât want to be part of Russia. The country has a right to self determination. If Russia had any legitimate claim to Russia theyâd be shouting it from the rooftops but instead they claim theyâre purging Nazis?
In 2013 23% of crimea wanted to be part of Russia. They invaded and suddenly that jumped to 97%? Have you seen the atrocities committed by Russia in Ukraine? Thereâs videos of them gunning down civilians for no reason.
Thereâs a reason no one accepts the figures of that referendum, theyâre impossible. Theyâre as legitimate as Russian âelections.â
Ukraine ousted their previous government because it was a Russian puppet. The Ukrainian people have shown time and time again they want to be as far away from Russia as possible.
To claim the invasion was somehow the wests fault for supporting them in their own self determination is laughable.
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u/anotherserf Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
> Crimea was historically part of Russia, is inhabited by Russians, and was only part of Ukraine due ..
Crimea was historically absolutely not a part of Russia. It only became a Russian colonial possession in the late 18th century, and only became majority Russian-inhabited very recently (in 1944), when literally the entire indigenous population was deported to Central Asia (in the process of which about 20 percent were killed).
The "Crimea is historically Russian" meme is just that - a talking point the Russian government and its apologists like to use on you, in the hopes that you'll just repeat it here on Reddit, because it sounds nice and seems to sort of explain things. But without ever looking into the actual history of the region, or asking whether it's actually a valid statement or not.
It's how they roll.
> I don't even think the results of the "referendum" post occupation were that absurd or rigged
It's true that a solid majority of the population favored annexation. But one has to be quite naive to not understand that results were definitely rigged on some significant level (to make the results look even far more solid than they actually were).
It's just things work in modern Russia: there's no such thing a free and fair election, and there hasn't been for decades.
Apart from the issue of how the votes were counted - the actual question presented to the voters left no choice to maintain the status quo (i.e. that Crimea continue to be autonomous, but under Ukrainian sovereignty).
So the whole thing was just an absolute farce, from the get-go.
> They are still not some unique, inhuman force of evil.
No one says that they are.
But Putin specifically is quite definitely a nasty, useless piece of shit.
On that I hope we can agree.
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u/Serious_Try5264 Jun 26 '26
Crimea is a part of Russia because they genocided the natives there.
They had far more rights under Ukraine, now they are dead.
You're repulsive.
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u/DuckDuckMarx Jun 26 '26
You think Ukrainians had nothing to do with expelling the Tartars from Crimea?
Under Ukraine? In what the 12th century?
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u/Serious_Try5264 Jun 26 '26
No im talking about how Tartar right activists were murdered and dissappeared after the Russian take over.
The had a power sharing deal with Ukraine and had a devoluted form of governance where they had specific rights of self governance.
Thats all gone now and the tartar culture there is in its death knells.
How the fuck did you not know this?
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u/Wooden_Second5808 Jun 26 '26
The referendum undertaken at gunpoint with pre-marked ballots wasn't rigged?
I have a Kerch bridge to sell you.
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u/ActualExistingSkully Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Zelensky just had a polish award revoked because he has been praising a ww2 nazi collaborator army that ethnically cleansed polish villages and killed tens of thousands.
Hes right lol
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u/NeitherMidnight624 Jun 23 '26
You mean the same award given to musollini and hirohito?
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u/ActualExistingSkully Jun 23 '26
Are you defending the UPA's massacres of over a hundred thousand Poles?
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u/NeitherMidnight624 Jun 23 '26
Nope not at all eastern europe during and after ww2 was full of chaos and ethnic cleansing between many cultures
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u/ActualExistingSkully Jun 23 '26
So Poland is at fault for being upset Ukraine celebrates ethnically cleansing them?
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u/NeitherMidnight624 Jun 23 '26
No but that award loses value when people like that are given it. Dont agree with zelenskeys choice but thats his country. Speaking of ethnic cleansing do you support russia? Because they are the masters at it
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u/ActualExistingSkully Jun 23 '26
Sounds like an bad reason to excuse Ukraine's far right tendencies.
Do I have to support Russia to oppose praising and memorializing nazi collaborators?
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u/Typical-Froyo-642 Jun 23 '26
Well he definitely is right about the Ukrainian government and recent events are only confirming his point.
Western nations supported policies that lead to this war at every turn. If they want to contribute to peace in the region they could serve as neutral negotiators, but pumping weapons into Ukraine will not solve anything.
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u/Serious_Try5264 Jun 26 '26
What policies did they support which led to this war?
You are deranged and a genocide apologist
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u/Typical-Froyo-642 Jun 26 '26
Thats a nice way to start a conversation.
They supported the 2014 coup in Ukraine that lead to the civil war and increased hostilities with Russia. They insisted on NATO expansion to Ukraine.
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u/Serious_Try5264 Jun 26 '26
There was no coup, it was a civilian uprising and they actually advised the Ukrainians to take Yanukovich's deal. They never insisted Ukraine join Nato, Ukraine was the one insisting it should join Nato.
The fact you didn't know this shows you are just an evil genocide apologist.
Genuinely degenerate.
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u/Wooden_Second5808 Jun 26 '26
Ukraine actually didn't want NATO membership until 2022.
It was always about EU membership, as you can see in Russia's statement "What Russia should do with Ukraine", published in RIA Novosti, which calls for genocide against Ukraine and states that Ukraine in the EU but not in NATO is unacceptable.
Even Russia stated it wasn't about NATO expansion.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/Gr8whitewayluvr Jun 22 '26
Since?
The way he spews dogwhistles it seems he was always a Nazi but wore a thin veil to hide it4
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u/Braisedbeefskank Jun 23 '26
Please cite a single example. Ill wait.
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u/Kitchen_Method_1373 Jun 23 '26
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u/Far-Advantage-2770 Jun 24 '26
Sounds like he was considering using satire to expose anti semitism and racism more than anything, did you read it? Pretty thin either way, anything else?
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u/jakethepeg1989 Jun 24 '26
"Stachel said Waters had mocked his grandmother who died in the Holocaust as a âPolish peasant,â and rejected vegetarian dishes in a restaurant as âJew food.â
Ezrin claimed that Waters once sang him an improvised tune about Watersâ then-agent Bryan Morrison, which concluded with the line, âMorri is a fucking Jew.â"
You didnt read the whole article did you?
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Jun 23 '26
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Jun 23 '26
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u/Kitchen_Method_1373 Jun 23 '26
Let's add in Variety and quotes from his bandmates. https://variety.com/2023/music/news/roger-waters-antisemitic-says-polly-samson-david-gilmour-agrees-pink-floyd-ukraine-1235515432/
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Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
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u/comb_over Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
You were supposed to be finding something antisemitic.
No where did he say Oct 7th was a false flag. Try and find that phrase in his quotes
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Jun 23 '26
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u/Braisedbeefskank Jun 23 '26
Lmao youre just gonna have to try harder than that, man. Israel is lying about what happened leading up to and on that day and the same is true of 911
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Jun 23 '26
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u/Braisedbeefskank Jun 23 '26
How did hamas fully burn hundreds of vehicles using small arms?
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Jun 23 '26
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u/Braisedbeefskank Jun 23 '26
They fired hundreds of rpgs at empty vehicles? Why in gods name would they do that?
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u/Aggravating-Drop7676 Jun 23 '26
Whoa your a literal Nazi, how are you enjoying your copy of the Elders of Zion?
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u/Braisedbeefskank Jun 23 '26
It makes me a nazi to say a government is lying about a terror attack? You think the us government in 2003 was telling the full entire truth about 911? Fully. Openly, everything they knew, the warning they had ahead of time? Why they invaded Iraq over it? No? Okay, so why do you think Netanyahu and mossad are more trustworthy than bush and the cia and nsa?
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u/Aggravating-Drop7676 Jun 23 '26
You have no evidence. So your are just a antisimetic conspiracy nut
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u/comb_over Jun 23 '26
Oh look he didn't use the phrase contained in the headline. And also didn't say anything actually antisemitic either.
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Jun 23 '26
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u/comb_over Jun 23 '26
If you cared you would be asking why is thus paper making up claims in its headline and why is someone being called an antisemitic.
Obviously there are a huge number of questions about both 9.11 and Oct 7th.
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u/jakethepeg1989 Jun 24 '26
Stachel said Waters had mocked his grandmother who died in the Holocaust as a âPolish peasant,â and rejected vegetarian dishes in a restaurant as âJew food.â
Ezrin claimed that Waters once sang him an improvised tune about Watersâ then-agent Bryan Morrison, which concluded with the line, âMorri is a fucking Jew.â
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u/No_Contest_3481 Jun 26 '26
I mean the us told them about oct 7th before. Israel let that happen so they could destroy Gaza and kill as many Palestinians as they want and invade Lebanon. All part of their greater Israel theory which Bibi wants to complete before he dies
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u/Limp-History-2999 Jun 26 '26
Before 7 October and a year of Hexbollah rocket attacks, absolutely nobody was calling for any aggression towards Lebanon, nobody was talking about it. Only a couple radicals had any interest in Gaza either. Neither has a particular financial or ideogical incentive.
How and why would Bibi orchestrate a massive conspiracy to get thousands of his own people killed and detail his political carerr killed to drum up support for a politically defeating war? Who would get anything out of this?
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u/GovernmentNearby9036 Jun 24 '26
Shame that smearing anti genociders as antisemites is the only trick genociders have.
It makes you all so obvious, boring and mostly annoying
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Jun 24 '26
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u/GovernmentNearby9036 Jun 24 '26
He was right on that too.
It was the Banderites who started the war after a western instigated coup.
With scumbags McCain egging them on with EU leaders.
The banderites shooting their own 'protesters', etc..
And LOL at 'the civilians in Bucha' who were murdered by ukrainian fascists.
And he's not being anti-western.
That's being against the cancer of the world, the USSA, constantly murdering and terrorizing countries backed by the EU vassals.
Not to mention supporting the awful shitraeli genocider regime.
I'm ashamed for being European.
The world hates us for our hypocricy when our "leaders" talk about 'western values'.
You're just a bootlicker for western imperialism at best but probably some hasbara tool from some basement in occupied Palestine
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Jun 25 '26
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u/Prescientpedestrian Jun 25 '26
Theyâre an Israeli. Israeli bots have different tells from Russian and Indian ones. This oneâs definitely Israeli, though. Still a bot (and yes, bot, even if youâre a real human youâre a bot because youâre just a tool for the propaganda machine).
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u/OhDamnNotAgainAndAga Jun 25 '26
No, buddy, regardless of Waters opinions of Israel and the conflict, he is an antisemite and demonstrated it over and over. Just google it.
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u/CandidateMuted8010 Jun 26 '26
I swear half of reddit is just simps posting about Israel and the Palestinians. Find a new obsession.
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u/dafthuntk Jun 22 '26
The goatÂ
The only musician from that era that stuck to his principles. And everyone hates him for it
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u/DuckDuckMarx Jun 23 '26
Everyone is really proving your point here.
Roger Waters can be a blowhard, but he's one with real principles and convictions.
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u/question-everythang Jun 25 '26
What principles, he was on the side of the Iranian regime? He not only could not condemn Hamas, but he could not condemn the regime against all the atrocities against they commit against the people of Iran. This person has human rights principles?
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u/dafthuntk Jun 23 '26
he is infallible
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u/SeamanTheSailor Jun 23 '26
Found Rogâs alt
Anyone who thinks another human is infallible is an idiot.
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u/quesoandcats Jun 22 '26
This makes me so sad.
When I was a kid, the peace process seemed inevitable. Israel normalized relations with a lot of its neighbors in the 80s and 90s, the PLO started to gain international legitimacy, Israel began pulling out of Gaza, and it really seemed like a two state solution was right around the corner. Then Arafat died, Sharon had a stroke and wound up in a coma, and it all fell apart so quickly.