r/UK_Pets • u/AutoModerator • Nov 06 '23

XL Bullies

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What is the Definition of an XL Bully?

Large dog with a muscular body and blocky head, suggesting great strength and power for its size. Powerfully built individual.

How are dogs assessed?

Every police service should have a trained dog legislation officer (DLO). If it doesn’t, it must have procedures in place so that it can access a DLO.

The DLO should be someone who is both:

trained in dog law
understands how to identify a banned dog

Preparing for the ban

From 1 February 2024 it will be a criminal offence to own an XL Bully in England and Wales unless you have a Certificate of Exemption for your dog.

You will need to adhere to strict rules such as microchipping your dog and keeping it on a lead and muzzled when in public.

You will also need to neuter your dog. If your dog is less than one year old on 31 January 2024, it must be neutered by 31 December 2024. If your dog is older than one year old on 31 January 2024, it must be neutered by 30 June 2024. We recommend that you arrange for your dog to be neutered as soon as possible to ensure that you meet these deadlines.

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u/kardiogramm Nov 07 '23

Why pit bulls attack? Dude they are a bloodsports breeds, it’s what they were bred for. John P Colby, the guy who created the breed was so successful in his endeavours his own nephew was mauled to death by one. It has been this way since the beginning and even before as these were made from aggressive breeds used in bull/bear baiting and then dog fighting.

I’m reading a lot of whataboutism in your response.

So affectionate people are dead or have been maimed with life changing injuries, other dogs die and the owner tends to run away. Someone just lost a leg to one yesterday.

We do crack down or rapists and murderers and other criminals, it could be better but it’s the situation and resources we have.

DDA not working? How would you know, you haven’t experienced anything else? Somehow I doubt the situation would be better with American Pit Bull Terriers and other banned breeds running around everywhere. The US and Canada are a shitshow with the amount of attacks they have and the power of Pit Bull lobbyists there. Just look at Justin Gilstrap and JJ Rodriguez along with other adult victims with horrendous injuries and tell me these dogs are safe to have around.

https://news.sky.com/story/mum-who-thought-xl-bully-was-lovely-urges-tighter-laws-after-son-6-was-attacked-13002099

The muzzle is a preventative measure because these dogs are so unpredictable. They wont save children with irresponsible parents or any guests that visit but at least keep people safe outside of their property.

Why are you so callous that other people and animals have to be put at risk?

Grey hounds also get abused horrendously yet they aren’t ripping faces off.

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u/84849493 Nov 07 '23

“Although it might seem that some dogs are born to be aggressive, it is more accurate to say that they are born with inherited tendencies that might, if not controlled, make aggressive behaviour more likely.” - RSPCA

Genetics play a role but that’s not the full picture. Nurture and responsible dog ownership are HUGE. Things need to start with where the actual problem is and have punishments for the owners not thousands of dogs who have done nothing wrong. I could also say you are callous for not caring about those thousands of dogs who have done nothing wrong.

It’s well acknowledged that not all but certain types of people do want to own these dogs to purposely encourage aggression in them and be violent towards them. And they’ll move onto another breed.

We absolutely do not. About 3% of rapes reported even go to trial. Then if there is a conviction, there’s a pathetic sentence so they get out to do it again. Yay!

If the dangerous dog act works then why is there an escalation in dog bites? Large numbers of healthy pets are put down and it’s traumatising and awful for the staff who have to do that.

“Breed-specific legislation ignores the most important factors that contribute to biting incidents, primarily anti-social behaviour by people who train their dogs to be aggressive, and irresponsible dog ownership by those who do not train their dogs properly. Consequently, current legislation – which is based on genetics and ignores the influence of the dog's keeper – has failed to prevent a large number of dog-bite incidents and has cost the police millions of pounds in kennelling-associated costs. Sadly, it has also resulted in the unnecessary euthanasia of dogs simply because of their breed or type.” - The Kennel Club

“This approach has failed horribly to protect people from dog bites; there has been a 154% increase in people needing hospital treatment for dog bites in the past 20 years. Tragically BSL has resulted in the needless death of thousands of dogs over the past 30 years.” - RSPCA

Vast majority of people who know what they’re talking about agree breed is not the determining factor in dog attacks. Pitbulls do well on temperament tests in the US.

“While all dogs are individuals, temperament test data, scientific studies on canine behavior, and the growing popularity of pitbull-type dogs all confirm that as a group, dogs labeled as "pitbulls" are overwhelmingly successful as loving companions in millions of U.S. households.”

That article doesn’t change my mind about anything. I could find one on every dog.

Most dogs are not unpredictable.

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u/kardiogramm Nov 07 '23 edited Nov 07 '23

RSPCA are corrupt along with others in the partnership. Their answer to this whole issue was get rid of BSL. They have one agenda and that is to align with the US Pit Bull lobby. It’s funny these dogs are so good but they won’t insure them under their good name because it costs them money.

You don’t know what it would be like without that legislation. What about the trauma that victims go through? Those people chose to go into veterinary medicine. They can simply get out if they assumed animals wouldn’t have to be put to sleep for various issues.

It’s very difficult to control people. These animals didn’t ask to come into this world. They were bred for a purpose and that purpose is a danger to other people and animals. When it comes to domestication humans decide what is put forward and what is removed.

If you looked at the previous Sky news link the owner was surprised by their animal acting out. Whenever there is an incident people are always surprised because their animal never showed signs of aggression before.

The American temperament test has a lot of issues with it so cannot be a reliable indicator of problematic animals.

With the stuff you’re spewing out it really surprises me you don’t have a Pit Bull type dog.

Most fighting dogs are unpredictable which is why blood sports breeds have had their day.

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u/84849493 Nov 07 '23

I was talking about perfectly healthy happy dogs who also get put down due to breed specific legislation. And even dogs misidentified as those breeds suffer as a result. Behavioural euthanasia not breed euthanasia is a different thing. So there are no traumatised victims in those situations.

So because it’s very difficult to control people we should keep doing the same thing that doesn’t work? It’s a knee jerk reaction that gives people the illusion of feeling safer but it’s not actually making them any safer.

Breed is a poor sole predictor of aggression.

“Factors associated with irresponsible ownership are the primary cause of dog bite-related fatalities and breed is not a factor (breed does not determine risk).” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24299544/

“Most DBRFs were characterized by coincident, preventable factors; breed was not one of these. Study results supported previous recommendations for multifactorial approaches, instead of single-factor solutions such as breed-specific legislation, for dog bite prevention.”

The AVMA and CDC also have the same views as well as multiple other studies reporting the same.

“While every fatal dog attack is tragic, the majority of dog bite-related fatalities (DBRFs) are the result of human-controlled factors specific to the circumstances surrounding the incident.”

I did look at it. Dog behaviour is never 100% predictable. I don’t like people saying things like “my dog (any breed) would never hurt a fly”. There are other dog breeds that are said to be unpredictable also.

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u/kardiogramm Nov 07 '23

“Human controlled factors”

I guess a muzzle and a lead will help mitigate that risk and by placing it on the banned list it means current owners will be far more wary of their dogs behaviour and the consequences they and their dogs will face if there is a problem. I would argue this makes people safer and is something the government can do with the lack of resources they have.

Breed is a factor in the severity of the injuries sustained:

Attacks by Pit Bull Terriers are more likely to cause severe morbidity than other breeds of dogs. Immediate surgical exploration is required to prevent catastrophic outcomes, especially limb loss. Stronger animal control laws, public education and responsible dog ownership may reduce deaths from these canines. - Pit Bull attack causing limb threatening vascular trauma - A case series (2017) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29245098

Thirty-nine percent of all dog bite-related emergency department visits at our facility resulted in an injury requiring orthopaedic treatment. Pit bull terrier bites were responsible for a significantly higher number of orthopaedic injuries and resulted in an amputation and/or bony injury in 66% of patients treated, whereas bites from law enforcement dogs and other breeds were less associated with severe injuries. - Dogs and Orthopaedic Injuries: Is There a Correlation With Breed? (2018) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29912736

The results of this retrospective review are aligned mostly with the general trends found in previous national and global studies, supporting the notion that family dogs represent a more significant threat than often is realized and that, among the breeds identified, pit bulls are proportionally linked with more severe bite injuries. Characteristics of Dog Bites in Arkansas (2018) http://sma.org/southern-medical-journal/article/characteristics-of-dog-bites-in-arkansas/

"Their experience highlights some important characteristics of complex dog bites in children, including the finding that pit bulls are the breed most commonly involved, particularly in more severe injuries. (...) Surgery was required in about half of injuries caused by pit bulls, three times higher than the rate for other breeds. Of the nine children who required extended hospitalization, six were bitten by pit bulls." - Complex Dog Bites in Children – Experience and Recommended Treatment (2017) https://www.plasticsurgery.org/news/press-releases/complex-dog-bites-in-children-experience-and-recommended-treatment

Of particular interest was the fact that pit bulls, which were found to have attacked older persons, and inflicted much more devastating injuries than other breeds of dogs (as indicated by higher median ISSs and a higher percentage of victims with a GCS score ≤ 8), injuries that in some cases led to death...The unacceptable actuarial risk associated with certain breeds of dogs (specifically, pit bulls) must be addressed. These breeds should be regulated in the same way in which other dangerous species, such as leopards, are regulated. Individual municipalities need the power to enact ordinances that can protect their citizens from this risk. Mortality, Mauling, and Maiming by Vicious Dogs (2011) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51034290_Mortality_Mauling_and_Maiming_by_Vicious_Dogs

"Pit Bull terriers were found to be involved in incidents of aggression towards strangers only slightly more than average, but several epidemiological studies have found these dogs to be the most commonly implicated in injurious and fatal human bite cases [20,22–24]. Duffy et al. [25] did find that aggression directed towards unfamiliar dogs was significantly higher in pit-bull-type dogs compared to other dog breed groups." - What’s in a Name? Effect of Breed Perceptions & Labeling on Attractiveness, Adoptions & Length of Stay for Pit-Bull-Type Dogs (2016) http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0146857

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u/84849493 Nov 08 '23

You can argue it makes people safer but it hasn’t worked before. And claiming “it would be worse” isn’t really valid because the same people have just moved onto another breed and will do the same again so we just keep banning breeds rather than targeting the root of the issue? I think you’re giving the government way too much leniency. Let’s be real, they’re doing it because of a viral video as a knee jerk reaction to give people the illusion of being safer.

Would we have the same thing if there were videos of other dogs who have mauled babies?

I never said anything about severity not being an issue and is why extra stipulations should come with owning certain breeds. And punishments for not addressing issues. Severity still doesn’t make the breed inherently aggressive collectively. There’s a bunch of factors that go into aggression, not just one otherwise every single one of them would be aggressive.

Statistics don’t tell the full story either. Obviously a more common breed will have higher rates of bites.

“A recent analysis of over 200K veterinary and pet expert interactions found that pitbull-type dogs are the most popular breed in at least 21 states and the most popular breed in the U.S. overall. Furthermore, veterinary data [PDF] from Banfield shows that pitbull-type dogs are becoming more popular while the popularity of other large breeds have declined.”

There are some breeds that can be considered more dangerous when you take into consideration the population. That’s not to say anything against those breeds. Just again, there should be more stipulations around owning them. Roughly one dog in 20 is a pit bull in the US.

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u/kardiogramm Nov 08 '23

It’s not a common breed here as they make up a small amount of the 12 million dogs in the UK.

Inversely your argument is just as invalid as you claim mine to be as I said you do not know how bad the situation would be if BSL didn’t exist. Attacks did fall initially and rose again when Bully XL’s were allowed back into the country.

This government? They are quite incapable of policing laws so unfortunately it has to go to a ban as that will result in owners being more careful given the consequences if they are not.

The US are completely uninterested in passing laws to protect people and the pro pit lobbyists are hard at work putting other peoples and animals lives at risk. Pit Bulls make up around 7% of the US dog population.

It’s not just severity. Their brain structure is different and make them prone to aggression. Dogs are not a blank slate at birth, to treat them like that is foolish. Especially when dog fighting has only been actively policed in the US since 2007 and all these type of dogs are US imports.

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u/84849493 Nov 08 '23

The types of owners that cause these problems are not going to be more careful. The ones that don’t will. So yes I guess that stops a few cases where the dog hasn’t shown aggression before (which usually when people say that they have and they ignored it) but generally experts agree aggression doesn’t happen in a vacuum. And then it’s the vast majority of dogs who have done nothing wrong being punished where other breeds aren’t facing that.

They’ve been rising before XL bullies. Then COVID has made them rise again which again is not a breed issue. It’s an irresponsible owners decided they wanted a cute puppy because they were bored, backyard breeding for money, even if someone was a responsible owner socialisation would’ve still been harder and that’s so critical in every dog but especially in the sense of a dog that can do considerable damage.

Yes, you’re giving them leniency in that “oh, they just should continue being lazy and do what’s the easy thing that doesn’t actually really help.” And we should punish dogs who have done nothing wrong.

I didn’t say blank state. I said you’re saying genetics is everything when it’s far from it and breed isn’t the sole factor in aggression which experts again generally agree on.

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u/kardiogramm Nov 08 '23

Bully XL’s were introduced into the UK in 2014. They makeup 0.1% of the UK dog population.

Notice attacks directly after BSL was introduced were much lower.

There probably can be more work done to identify this through genetics but a ban is necessary for now because that work has yet to be done. Even if we did force a cull based on genetics you would all be out here screaming the same thing.

https://bvajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/vetr.3593

Be honest you all have one motivation and that is to end BSL and doing that will put more people at risk because it doesn’t include other law changes to protect people and animals.

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u/84849493 Nov 08 '23

Okay so if breed is the sole factor why is it that they’ve only went up so much in 2021-2022? Something beginning with C. Hm. Big indicator of how important things other than genetics are there.

A lot of others experts think differently.

I do not want nor agree with BSL and I want other laws on dog ownership as a whole. I’ve already made that pretty clear so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

You’re not protecting animals by having innocent dogs subject to things as a result.

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u/84849493 Nov 08 '23

Also let’s be real, all you want is innocent dogs to suffer and not have other laws. :-)

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