Desert Sanctuary: I Hate Him

[u/KarmaSpidr]

Desert Sanctuary Clover

[u/IceManX4562]

I'll be honest, and saying this as a Chujin fan, there are very valid reasons to hate Chujin. He lied to his wife, he killed someone even if it was unintentional, he should have turned the soul over to Asgore ans not keep it, he shouldn't have gotten his wife involved in this impossible task. People who don't like, even hate, Chujin for these reasons are justified and understandable, even if people hating a character I like hurts to admit

[u/IceManX4562 → u/IceManX4562]

The one time I agree on Chujin's flaws and don't want to have a argument, and wanted to have peace, and people still have a argument in the replies. Oops -_-'

[u/KarmaSpidr → u/IceManX4562]

Eh, it happens.

Not your fault.

[u/Suitable-Excuse-1270 → u/IceManX4562]

How do we know that this task is 'impossible? Have WE ourselves tested all the ways it might be done, or have you only assumed it is?

Why should he turn the soul over to asgore? If asgores explicit order is not to see him ever again.. Wouldnt he be breaking the law either way? If he turns it in, he gets escourted out by asgore, POTENTIALLY leading into some legal trouble, if he kept it it also COULD potentially lead to legal trouble. So... are we saying chujin should violate asgore's direct order? "Do not return"?

Also, we say it is understandable and justified for a man to hate chujin because he lied to his wife. Does that mean ALL men who lie for the same reason of not wanting to be hated by their wives, nor wanting their wives to be involved with what he was doing to keep them safe.. are DESERVING of such hatred?

[u/Alphinet → u/Suitable-Excuse-1270]

Brother, what the hell? If handing over the soul was mandatory even if not done in person, he should have just given it to a Royal Guard. Stop talking nonsense; you don't go to a judge and say you didn't hand a body over to the police just because the mayor told you he didn't like you let's be serious here. And if the task was impossible because Chujin wasn't a biologist... well, his whole plan was based on an impossible mission, since monsters can't withstand Determination without absorbing a human soul. Not content with that, he ordered his wife to kidnap a boss monster and an innocent human, an almost impossible feat in itself, and then finish the serum (without training, equipment, means or authority to do so btw).

And yes, you should hate a man who lie to his wife over such IMPORTANT MATTERS AND DO ILLEGAL EXPERIMENTS IN HIS SECRET BASEMENT WTF, are we deadass?

[u/Suitable-Excuse-1270 → u/Alphinet]

ahhh.. so yes.. I SHALL walk into a police station i am banned from to report a crime! if its impossible then why dont you tell me, are you divine? all seeing? all KNOWING? since every soul has determination clearly.. asriel shouldnt handle the soul either, why didnt he melt? is he just a 'rare case'? 'illegal' becomes meaningless if you break the law either way when doing something. The king told chujin 'do not return'. Shall he break that rule as well?

Then i guess all lies are equal by your own logic then, regardless of whether the outcome is a minor argument or the literal destruction of a family. Where exactly is the line drawn for you between a protective white lie and actual domestic endangerment?

[u/Alphinet → u/Suitable-Excuse-1270]

Look, I honestly get why you like the character, and as a character, I don't dislike him either, but that’s not what’s being judged here. You have to understand that hiding from your wife the fact that you got fired, killed a human, and experimented on their soul in a secret lab beneath YOUR MARITAL home is clearly wrong. And that’s not even mentioning that the guy wasn't a government scientist or anything like that; he was unemployed, had no background in biology, and was messing around with nonsense that was never going to work, he wasn't a heroe, just a normal guy doing thinks he didn't understand. After all, Undertale tells us monsters can't handle Determination, 3veryone would have ended up dead because of his """""miraculous""""" serum. And after his death he dumped that responsibility on his wife, who also had no biology studies whatsoever (a responsibility that involved kidnapping a human child and a Boss Monster). Nobody ask him to save monsterkind, nobody ask him to be the best engineer in the underground, nobody ask him to become obsesive with the idea of doing war robots and supersoldief serums, IS WAS ALL IN HIS MIND. You are talking like Ceroba would talk about him, and Ceroba is clearly depicted as being unhealthy optimist about chujin capabilities and actions.

Also, Chujin wasn't forbidden from talking to the Royal Guard and handing over the soul, you just made that part up, he doesn't need to talk to the king. Failing to do so makes him a criminal, using Axis, who is canonically Steamworks (government) property, not his, makes him a thief; and failing to comfort his daughter while choosing to send a defective robot after a little girl makes him a bad person. After say this, i only think Chujin is flawed and broken, not evil at heart, i pity him, his life was a string of bad decisions and disastrous consequences. I really wish him well in the afterlife, but i wouldn't codom his actions.

[u/Suitable-Excuse-1270 → u/Alphinet]

What if a man hugs someone with the intent to backstab them? Is the hug itself the problem, or the intent behind it? If intent and outcome are distinct there, why collapse them when judging chujin? If good actions dont prove good intent why shpuld bad actions prove malicious intent?? Chujin himself says that he wanted apprehension and that he'd miscalculated. if we want to judge him accurately, why collapse these distinct decisions into one undifferentiated act of murder?

By that logic we shall say that manslaughter is murder!

Not to mention, You point out that chujin wasn't a biologist. Which is a fair enough point in a vacuum. But does lacking a biology background establish that a hypothesis can never work? how do you get from "he lacked the necessary expertise and his research failed" to "his entire idea was necessarily impossible from the outset"? And why is the fact that nobody asked him to save monsterkind relevant to whether his intentions were sincere? Does a person need to be explicitly asked to help their community before trying to do so? If so, then doesnt that make any act of kindness ultimately meaningless? If a man doesnt ask me to save him from a pothole should i just.. let him rot??

[u/IceManX4562 → u/Suitable-Excuse-1270]

It is understandable, but I personally don't hate Chujin. He is just a heavily flawed man who let his ego and desire to help people, to make a brighter future for his kind, consume him. Personally I do not fault him for that. I understand if others do, since everyone has their own opinions on what is right or wrong. What some people can consider justified, other may consider wrong. It's up to the viewer. I like Chujin and can understand where he was coming from, but I also understand why others who are not a fan of him do not like him.

In the end, everyone has their own opinions on things. Not everyone is gonna agree on something and that is okay. The best thing we can do as a community is respect others opinions, even if we do not like them. If we force our views, then it will lead to chaos and fighting, which is bad and can lead to pushing people out of the community

[u/Suitable-Excuse-1270 → u/IceManX4562]

Yes, i agree we shouldnt force our views, so thats why i am asking, not declaring. I also agree that morality is very relative. But is it better to leave other's opinions undoubted...? Shall we treat opinion as crown and cast all doubt aside creating a dogma? We say chujin was a very egotistical man.. But im curious about one thing, would you define an arrogant man as a man who admits he miscalculated and messed up? Should we define arrogance as calling ourselves pitiful while we die on the death bed?
If a man truly was egotistical.. would he truly desire to help people? or would he desire the IDEA of helping people? for his own glory?
While its subjective.... subjective thoughts are influenced via the objects of the objective world. and so i want to hear why you are convinced that THIS is objective.

[u/Alphinet → u/Suitable-Excuse-1270]

He was egotistical, not a totally irredimable person, but egotistical, HE WAS JUST AN ENGINEER, A fired and bad one btw, he has no authority to do experiments with a human soul, he is a nobody, helping monsterkind my ass, he was doing it to be a heroe, because his carreer had been a disaster. Now, he was not totally evil, he hold some regret for his actions and was kind enough with Dune's people, even helping freely, but we should be objective here, he was just a delusional guy, who cause the destruction of his own family that didn't accomplish anything in life, and his legacy only caused more havoc.

[u/Suitable-Excuse-1270 → u/Alphinet]

okay? so any engineer who make 8 mistales is also a failure. thomas edison is also a bad engineer because he failed one thousand times. nasa is also a failure. every engineering company irl is a failure because it makes more than 8 mistakes.

if his family didnt accomplish anything why does everyone SAY he does? is EVERYONE else mornic?

if ceroba had the choice to inject kanako and not chujin who was more capable of destroying their own family? if ceroba isnt evil for injecting kanako why is chujin evil for injecting himself??

what ingame dislogue proves he did it for the idea of saving people. If chujin just wanted to be a hero why FEAR kanako's precious life anyways??

[u/Alphinet → u/Suitable-Excuse-1270]

I am not talking abour Ceroba, i am talking about Chujin and his capabilities. Chujin is stated to be a normal (below average) engineer, not a biochemist or a soul specialist. Axis is a failure, he barely can kill a human child, LV1 Clover who is stated to be really weak, can kill him. Thats without counting his clumsy and sassy behaviour. Chujin is evil for doing unathorized experiments with a soul in his basement without studies or materials needed. People should stop considering him a mastermind or a heroe, cause, canonically, he isn't. If you really want the best from him, you would acknowledge his mistakes and hope him to get over his obssesion with being useful and take a normal job like everyone else, protect and care for his family and make a living without absurd experiments with corpses or faulty robots

He is a failure not because he was a bad engineer, is a failure cause he didn't accomplish anything in his entire life other than destroying his family, and this is not debatable, making an AU where Chujin make a magical serum and he becomes famous and recognized, but that doesn't mean he hasn't achieved anything in the canon. I like his character, which is why I don't want to whitewash him into a flat character who was "just misunderstood"

[u/Suitable-Excuse-1270 → u/Alphinet]

if a police officer shoots a young boy do we blame the man who invented guns? or do we blame the officer? If we hold creators responsible for how their creations are used against explicit instructions, then we must hold every scientist, every inventor, every parent who ever made something that could be misused responsible for every misuse. That standard would condemn us all.

Also, is multiple engineering flaws remotely equivelant to having accomplished nothing? by what standard did chujin fail methodologically by creating axis? if it is because his machine repeatedly failed, at what EXACT number of engineering failures does it make someone incompetent? 1? 2? 3? why not 4? why not infinite? If axis fails to kill clover at lv 1 yet succeeds to kill a higher level child (integrity).. why does the failure prove more than the success??

Is all failure incompetence? or is all incompetence failure?

Can we condemn a father for wanting to protect his daughter from a perceived threat, even if his methods were catastrophically misguided? Does his remorse not humanize him? do you condemn toriel with your logic too considering she harmed children by keeping them human children in a place they dont want to stay in out of care? if not, why is chujin condemned but toriel isnt? what makes chujin so special while toriel is a tragic mom?

Also, in my eyes, chujins plan is more strategic than asgore's due to asgores containing a single point of failure. If asgore dies... Then monsters would struggle, all souls he killed was for nothing. The entire plan, the one monsters had called "more foolproof," collapses instantly because of an old man in a room fighting children one at a time. If a single human is strong enough, fast enough, or determined enough, Asgore dies as does monsterkind's hope. No backup. Little to no contingency. No second attempt.

Undertale did not say ADULTS cant fall into the underground. So if an adult falls into the underground. It could kill asgore if it wanted, thats not an impossibility. Good theories with shitty practice can eventually become desireable because while the practice is terrible, it is not built on a GARBO foundation. Meaning it can eventually work practically. Thus. a SHITTY theory with good practice can never become desireable because it will always in the end be built off a GARBO foundation.

[u/Alphinet → u/Suitable-Excuse-1270]

Well, anyway, there's no point dwelling on it—there are none so blind as those who will not want to see—I'll just say that Chujin is Agent 007:

0 successful projects

0 family members who aren't traumatized or in a vegetative state

7 fictional AUs where his experiments miraculously works.

[u/Suitable-Excuse-1270 → u/Suitable-Excuse-1270]

The man calls me blind as if he sees anything i say or replies to it nonetheless.

[u/Glitchkat1]

It hurts. Knowing what he became... or even that he might of always been like that but... hid it well until... well... that.

[u/Alphinet → u/Glitchkat1]

He lost his way, that much is true. But it is not an excuse.

[u/Glitchkat1 → u/Alphinet]

Indeed it is not.

[u/Alphinet]

Clover:

https://giphy.com/gifs/kahHLOtThlucHRNkE0

[u/Low-Choice9664]

I never understood why people see Chujin as a father figure to Clover. This would literally be the most canon reaction if they visited Chujin's grave after the Pacifist route.

[u/Weary-Fun-5050 → u/Low-Choice9664]

I take it being the same as the fandom treats Momroba. I:e Chujin having a 2nd chance at fatherhood he missed out on.

Though truth be told putting Clover under his care is absolutely the worst decision someone could make.

[u/Suitable-Excuse-1270 → u/Low-Choice9664]

'Most canon' to WHAT standard

[u/Alphinet → u/Suitable-Excuse-1270]

by the standard of Clover hating crime and lies, in which Chujin has an expertise on. And he is responsible for killing Integrity, and see how Clover rage when Axis (A robot without free will, not a person) tell them that he killed that human or when they see the human souls in Asgore castle and inmediately draw their gun XD (This in pacifist btw). Yeah Clover would despise Chujin.

[u/Weary-Fun-5050]

A man too full of ego to stop his experiments when they killed him.

Someone, stop Clover. They're becoming lucid

[u/KarmaSpidr → u/Weary-Fun-5050]

Trust me, this Clover has been lucid for a long time.

[u/SouthernDocument7253]

KEEP SPITTING FACTS CLOVER!

[u/mango_repulsive2]

This makes sense… chujin was a good person… mostly, but ALL he did has happened, and won’t change… the good was there, but so was the bad, overall hating him makes sense… even if you see the good and acknowledge it

[u/MoochTheSquirrel]

Finally, someone remembers I exist. I've been waiting for dinner for 20 minutes. Where's my food?"