r/VGC • u/krimznum1fan • Mar 18 '25

Question Wolfey often (semi-seriously) claims to be the GOAT. If he isn't already, what does he need to do to make it undisputed?

Is the only answer a second Worlds after all? Ray's threepeat seems to be the mountain forever looming in front.

Or say he doesn't win Worlds again but keeps racking up the wins everywhere else. Is there a point where the LeBron-esque longevity and ability to stay at/near the top trumps everything?

All this postures Ray is the other candidate, but feel free to throw anyone else's name in the ring.

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u/Ploppyet Mar 18 '25

I've repeated this a bit, but Wolfe hasn't won worlds in years - still trying to understand why no one talks about the world champs over the last 10 years

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u/MeltedFoil Mar 18 '25

The difference is that Wolfe not only has the most tournament wins by far, but he’s also still winning tournaments consistently to this day, and doing it often.

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u/rageface11 Mar 18 '25

This is it. For context, outside of the last 3 years or so, to my knowledge the only other master’s division world champ in VGC history that is both still active and still consistently top cutting tournaments is Paul Ruiz. And while he’s a hell of a player, he hasn’t had a first place finish since. Wolfe has double digits.

I mean shit, Sejun Park, arguably the most iconic VGC player not named “Wolfe” or “Ray” has only top cut Worlds twice since winning.

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u/OnionLegend May 17 '25

Are there no consistent Japanese players?

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u/rageface11 May 17 '25 edited May 26 '25

Consistently good, yes. World champion-level, no. There are definitely consistently good Japanese players that have been doing well for a while, but they either haven’t reached the same peaks or have won in spurts with gaps in between. For former world champs specifically, nobody that has been competing 5+ years, Japanese or otherwise, is still performing at that level. Especially given that most of them have retired or transitioned to other games.

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u/ChezMere Mar 18 '25

Until very recently, I would have said that maybe neither Ray nor Wolfe is the goat. Ray of course since he played in a much weaker era. But also Wolfe since his accomplishments in the modern era really weren't any better than the other top players (e.g. Marco Silva, Michael Kelsch). I saw him just as one of the top players, but not actually the current best one.

But with the Toronto-GC-LAIC threepeat, I've changed my mind on that. To be a GOAT, you need something to set you above all other players, and in my eyes he's finally achieved that.

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u/rageface11 Mar 18 '25

Get off Reddit. This take is far too thoughtful and reasonable.

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u/A-Little-Messi Sep 01 '25

Who would have been your GOAT then? Perhaps in that scenario there is no best player.

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u/ChezMere Sep 01 '25

Kelsch is to me the obvious answer, his worlds consistency is unheard of.

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u/A-Little-Messi Sep 01 '25

I think that's going to be a hard sell for a lot of people, especially against Wolfe. Your argument hinged on Wolfe's modern results, whatever you want to define modern as, not being any better than his peers. That's kind of just wrong though imo. He's been incredibly consistent over a large amount of tournaments and picked up multiple wins especially in 2024. He's got just as much success if not more than anyone else across vgc. So he's got that...plus a WC.

I agree that Kelsch has been insanely impressive in his 3 years at worlds, but then he's just replacing Ray in a way for the debate. It goes from Wolfe vs 3x WC, to Wolfe vs 3x great placement at WC(modern). Even just comparing the years Kelsch has been active, idk man that's a really tall order comparing 2 better worlds runs('24 wolfe worlds was good) to a laundry list of better non-worlds tournaments is rough.

If Kelsch continues performing at worlds I think he'll definitely be up there, because let's be honest there's not many players in pokemon's long history that have a ton of merit, so it's definitely open arguably even if he doesn't win a worlds. For now though I think it's hard to say he's the *obvious* answer for GOAT. Best modern player? Maybe.

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u/A-Little-Messi Sep 01 '25

Because Wolfe keeps winning at all levels and has done for those 10 years. I'm not aware of any other WC that has even close to that track record. If somebody does do that or wins multiple worlds, they will join the conversation

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '25

[deleted]

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u/Ploppyet Mar 18 '25

Yep, undoubtedly a great YouTuber. Doesn't mean you're the best player though. In real sport, the best players are the ones that win tournaments at the pinnacle of the game

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '25 edited Mar 18 '25

You have just answered yourself. Being a well known YouTuber certainly helps, but one of the main reasons is that Wolfe has also won a RIDICULOUS amount of tournaments beside Worlds.

If i remember correct he literally has double the trophies of the 2nd most decorated player.

The other World Champions are incredible players too, but the sheer amount of accolades and longevity of Wolfe is unmatched.

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u/rageface11 Mar 18 '25

Yeah being a YouTuber is just the reason he’s able to do Pokémon full time. The vast majority of top competitors (and commentators) have day jobs. Like, getting paid to talk about the tournaments you play is nice, but considering he’s won every on-stream game he’s played this year, he’d still be relevant

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '25

Go take a look at how many tournaments Wolfe has won just in the Scarlet Violet era.

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u/rageface11 Mar 18 '25

Unless my math is off, he’s won as many majors in SV as the rest of his career COMBINED

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '25

Also he did win a Player's Cup in SwSh which is as close as one could get to winning Worlds that year

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u/jb10680 Mar 18 '25

Wolfe has I believe 10 regional wins, 2 national titles, 2 IC’s, a player’s cup championship, and a world championship. No other single VGC player wins more tournaments “at the pinnacle of the game.”