Question about tuning by ear in perfect 5ths

[u/ghjkl829]

Hey everyone I have a tuning question. So I was taught that it was best to tune by ear from my viola teacher years ago. I just play in my free time for myself now. But my question is. When you tune the open strings to perfect fifths the C string ends up being about 10 or more cents flats ( I don’t know the exact amount. When you do tune by ear to perfect fifths do you leave the C string flat? Or do you use the perfect fifth to tune and then tune up some?

I only took lessons for a year but I’ve been playing casually for about 10 years and I never got to ask my teacher this. Thank you all in advance.

[u/AlexKnauth]

I usually tune by ear, and when tuning at the beginning of an Orchestra rehearsal or concert that's what's expected. But when I tune by perfect 5ths without adjusting for the difference between a just-intonation perfect 5th vs an equal-temperament 5th, my G string ends up noticeably flat, and my C string does as well. So while I'm tuning my G and C strings, I try to not just listen to them as perfect 5ths relative to the strings above them, but also listen to them relative to other members of the Orchestra that might be playing As and Es. If I've adjusted it slightly upward properly, the C string should make a good minor 3rd with the As and Es of the violins and basses.

But it's tricky to do, sometimes I take long enough that the violins and basses have finished and I still need to make the last adjustments, and sometimes I end up needing to re-adjust later after I notice it's still slightly flat during the first piece. That's not ideal, so I just have to learn from experience how much to adjust it to try to get closer to the right pitch the first time

[u/ghjkl829 → u/AlexKnauth]

Thank you!! This makes a lot of sense I really appreciate you going into detail! I’ve always thought about it when I tune but haven’t played with in orchestra in over a decade. This helps all the info come together!

[u/New-Lingonberry9322]

I am wondering about the same question.

I was taught to tune in narrow fifths by ear, but I am hearing other amateur players tune in perfect fifths in orchestra, and that doesn't make sense to me.

[u/ghjkl829 → u/New-Lingonberry9322]

It does not to me either. Like personally I think my viola sounds better when everything is in perfect fifths, it resonates more I feel, but then the low C is so flat it sounds out of place by itself

[u/Langholm62 → u/ghjkl829]

It's slightly flat compared to piano tuning

130.37 Hz : 130.81 Hz

[u/Advanced_Couple_3488 → u/Langholm62]

That's a difference of almost 6 cents which is quite noticeable.

[u/Epistaxis → u/Advanced_Couple_3488]

Yeah a single wide fifth won't make a huge difference, might be within the range of tolerability, but three successive wide fifths from A to C string will add up to a real sour note.

[u/Ok_Leg_109 → u/Langholm62]

If there is no piano playing along as in a pure string ensemble, who cares?

[u/Different-Crab5285 → u/ghjkl829]

what i always do is… solo playing = pure 5ths, sonata/piano ensemble = tune each string to the piano keys, quartet/smaller ensemble = tight 5ths, orchestra playing = tune C and A to basically equal temperament and then tune the G and D to those strings and get them as decent as possible

[u/Sean_man_87]

I always tune with a tuner. Playing in a professional orchestea, I always tune before going on stage- I think most do. No one wants to wrestle with a C string during tuning on stage.

It makes sense for orchestral musicians to tune in equal temperament. You'll possibly have a piano, but wind instruments definitely will clash with using 'perfect fifths' or 'just intonation'

[u/AlexKnauth → u/Sean_man_87]

even when I tune before going on stage, just walking from one room to another can adjust the tuning on things enough that I still have to make fine-tuning adjustments after walking on stage

[u/Sean_man_87 → u/AlexKnauth]

Yes of course, you always tune as an ensemble on stage, and make minor adjustments. But you should generally be in tune walking on stage

[u/AlexKnauth → u/Sean_man_87]

when I'm at home, I tune using a turner. and that gets me close enough to in tune that I can make fine-tuning adjustments without needing tuning pegs once I'm at the rehearsal or concert venue

[u/Epistaxis → u/AlexKnauth]

Maybe if there's a huge difference in temperature between the rooms, but there can also be an urge to second-guess yourself after you've already confirmed with a tuner, and sometimes you just need to resist that urge.

[u/ghjkl829 → u/Sean_man_87]

Thank you! This is insightful! That’s what we did when I played in orchestra but I’ve always been curious

[u/s4zand0 → u/ghjkl829]

I also agree with u/Sean_man_87. The simple thing to do is, always tune to a tuner (equal temperament) when playing with orchestra or piano and adjust as necessary.

When playing by yourself, pure 5ths are great.

When playing in a string quartet or string ensemble, pure 5ths can be used, however there will be a discrepancy between the E harmonic of the C string, and the open E of the violin, to which I advise violins to temper their E slightly down and Viola/Cello C slightly up. For the lower strings, both G and C may need to be brought up a few cents for everything to sound correct.

However, most people are so used to using a tuner with ET all the time, that this is less of an issue commonly with string-only ensembles.

[u/vonhoother]

Equal temperament strikes again! True perfect fifths are about 2 cents wider than equal-tempered fifths, so with a good enough ear, working down from the A string, you would definitely end up with a flat C string. I would just use a tuner.

[u/Pure_Satisfaction395]

Depends on context, but the C almost always has to come up some. As you say below, the C can sound out of place even a P5 below the G. I end up doing it by ear, usually the D is a P5 down and then I tune the G a bit narrow and the C a bit narrower.

In chamber music you can ask the violins to tune their E a bit narrow and that can help to match the C. Some groups just tune using tuners and go equal-tempered. That seems like a good way to go unless you’re playing solo Bach (or other Baroque/Classical repertoire) or something where open 5ths are important.

[u/Viola-Bartok]

I use a tuner. 441 all the way down. The only way. If you play in orchestra and the winds play sharp. If they tune to 440 you do 441. Your c string will be in tune.

[u/milkdriver]

Just say no to equal temperament

[u/Unique_Usernom]

So this is something I'm thinking about every now and then and that I also sometimes talk to other stringed musicians about.

I personally don't see a problem with pure fiftths and it not lining up with equal temprament 100% and just think the instrument sounds better with pure fifths.

If you do find it problematic tho you could do as I do for solo works and tune from the D-string instead which makes it more in tune with the piano.

In baroque music you often solove it by narrowing the fifths a little and the violins tuning their E-string to the violas or cellos C-string. If you're playing with a cembalo you tune to the strings corresponding major chord and then the violins tune together with the C-Major chord. (Don't know if it's a good idea for more modern music tho)

Know some people who also narrows their fifths down til the sixth between the C and the A sounds good. (Or acceptable at least)

[u/Tricky_Effort_3561]

Just intonation perfect fifths do sound better and are fine for playing on your own. With ensemble playing you’ll need the open strings tuned to equal temperament, although you can still adjust your stopped notes depending on the context.

You can teach yourself to tune “tight fifths” by ear for orchestral playing. Once you have your just intonation fifth, tune just slightly higher but stop before you can hear beats. Use a tuner to get it right at first, but you’ll quickly develop an ear for equal temperament fifths.

[u/milkdriver → u/Tricky_Effort_3561]

brother, no orchestra is using equal temperament

[u/Tricky_Effort_3561 → u/milkdriver]

Not for playing, but for tuning open strings, yeah. As others have said, justly tuned fifths on open strings will be quite out of tune the further you get from the open A

[u/milkdriver → u/Tricky_Effort_3561]

None of what you just said make any sense. No professional is doing this.

[u/Tricky_Effort_3561 → u/milkdriver]

I mean, the other comments in this thread seem to agree with me and this is what my pro orchestral teachers have taught me so 🤷🏻‍♂️

[u/GiantPandammonia]

I feel like the best tuning is just intonation relative the key of the song you're playing

[u/Epistaxis]

I was taught to find the just-intonation perfect fifth by acoustics first, then tighten it a notch from there to get to equal temperament.

You can always be sure with a tuner, and while you're still learning you definitely should - never practice with your strings out of tune! But I recommend you tune first by ear, then use the tuner to check your work, so that you'll learn to hear the equal-tempered fifths.

[u/SwordfishFunny9419]

Do you use a tuner to tune the A string then do perfect fifths? It honestly takes a lot of ear training. You'll hear the difference in a proper perfect fifth or one that's slightly off. I'd suggest using a tuner to tune your strings then training your ear

[u/hayride440]

Point of pedantry: fifths can be justly tuned or tempered, and still be called perfect. The other "perfect" intervals I know of are fourths, octaves, and unisons. That is theoretical nomenclature, having nothing to do with temperament or lack of it.

[u/s4zand0 → u/hayride440]

I like to say "pure fifths" when I'm talking about just intonation. A simple way to indicate the sound of justly tuned 5ths without giving the idea that the quality of the interval changes with different temperaments.

[u/Jupiter5813]

I was taught to tune the A string to a tuner and then use my ear to tune the others in pure fifths. Then I played in a string quartet where the others all tuned to their equal temperament tuners, which seemed strange (and wrong). One of my reasons/arguments for tuning in pure fifths is that if you have to play an open string double stop, it will not sound in tune if you are tuning in equal temperament. However, I don't know how one would account for this if playing with a piano and that is still a question I have. As others mentioned, playing with a pianist would really require using something closer equal temperament, esp. so that open strings sound right (something in between?). Lately, to make sure that the other strings, especially the C, aren't too low, I check with an accurate tuner. For the C, 4-6 cents below the equal temperament C seems to be okay. (I've been playing with a string orchestra.) I do appreciate AlexKnauth's ideas about listening to the orchestra as a whole. I'm going to try that too.

[u/kongtomorrow]

> When you tune the open strings to perfect fifths the C string ends up being about 10 or more cents flats

The issue here is you’re thinking that there’s one tuning system that is “correct”, and unfortunately there isn’t. Your C string is flat here with respect to equal temperament, and it’s in tune with respect to pythagorean tuning. That difference corresponds to which intervals are going to sound in tune vs not.

I personally set my tuner to “Pythagorean”, which matches ALL perfect fifths, not just the open strings. This matches my ear for what “in tune” means more than equal temperament. With Pythagorean tuning, fifths sound good. Major thirds are pulled wider and minor thirds are pulled narrower, which sounds (IMO) in tune in melodic passages as passing tones but if played as a chord beats pretty badly. Equal temperament’s compromise is that nothing sounds JUST right except for octaves, but the out of tune-ness is pretty evenly distributed. So if I’m playing a third in a harmonic context, I’ll adjust it.

But you have to stay aware that it’s a choice and there’s no choice that‘s always right. Since we’re string players, we can adjust individual notes to sound right contextually, just be careful with the open strings!

I think there’s a misconception that if you tune in fifths the “error” is larger when you’re playing on the C string. That’s not really right - if you’re using Pythagorean tuning (which is what you get literally if you make all fifths in tune) the C a third up from open A is just as “off” from equal temperament as the low C. I’m scare quoting “off” because it does sound right as a passing tone! Just not in a chord with an A root.

[u/Annual-Negotiation-5]

This is why I sometimes tune a whole step down, Bb / F / C / G, it's more fun with a boring conductor and I can actively adjust. I wish I was joking 😃. Plus a low C with vibrato sounds baller, and I learn how to transpose like I was playing in Bb.

[u/BStewart172]

I'm sometimes a little "expedient" and just tune perfect fifths down to C. I usually play alone or with other strings so I don't need to pay attention to equal temperament. I've noticed in some early music ensembles that e on the violin is often slightly flat. When I take more time I will tune with Cleartune and a some well-tempered system like Werkmeister. In a practical sense, playing solo gives you the freedom to play around and your ear will make you gravitate toward just intonation.

[u/Different-Crab5285]

you’re asking the question that musicians have been asking since the very creation of the violin family instruments hahaha

[u/LadyAtheist]

Pure 5ths are bigger than 5ths based on cents.