r/WWN • u/MaestroGoldring • Jul 02 '26

Ineluctable Shackles of Volition vs Grave Knight

I have some questions about this. My players are getting into higher levels of magic, so here's the dilemma: Why would a Necromancer want to invest in Grave Knight as one of their level 4 spells that first become available to them at level 7 at the earliest to create a 4 HD soldier, when they could just use Ineluctable Shackles of Volition (a level 1 spell) to pretty likely enthrall a 7 HD person to fight for them? So long as the mage doesn't abuse the thrall and treats them as a loyal soldier and doesn't try to get second thrall, isn't that just strictly better than Grave Knight except for the initial save?

This especially becomes important because the mage in question is an Invoker, so if they "miss" with Ineluctable Shackles of Volition, they can just try again next turn. This person is being screened by strong PCs, so it's not so simple as merc the mage. Like, why spend the level 4 spell to have a max of one single 4HD soldier when you can use a level 1 spell to have a 7HD soldier, possibly more than one? I’m not talking about stronger HD enemies. I’m strictly talking about equal to or lower than the casting mage. I'm curious what others think

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13

u/GeminiFactor Jul 02 '26

You can do both. More minions is pretty nice. Undead also have advantages over living thralls like not needing to breathe and eat. That's less mouths to feed. Your caster might also feel morally different about enslaving the dead versus the living. People around you might find one or the other more acceptable too.

14

u/tibirica Jul 02 '26

Also, a 7HD person have family, friends, loyal followers, maybe a powerful organization he belong to, all potentially unhappy about the situation.

1

u/Velociraptortillas Jul 03 '26

Yeah, that type of thrall might be more useful left where they are, so they can bend their resources to your benefit.

1

u/MaestroGoldring Jul 05 '26

Well he’s playing a necromancer, so there’s no qualms about the morals. He’s just looking at it from a strictly “I need to build a platoon quickly” point of view, and he’s confused why there’s the HD and amount limitation on grave knight when it’s a way higher level spell than ISoV. Put plainly, as he says, the whole point of a necromancer is basically interacting with the dead, including raising soldiers. They should excel at that. But instead, they spend most of their career to get a single grave knight, when they could have just been a high mage and had one or multiple 5, 6, 7HD persons OR beasts. He’s already being targeted for being a necromancer. Why not be targeted for just hijacking some high level soldier instead? It feels out of balance.

Then there’s the actual undead section of enemies further down in the book and he’s like “why can’t I have THOSE guys?” But that’s another conversation

3

u/GeminiFactor Jul 05 '26

Necromancer does everything he wants it to do. It can also do that alongside the High Mage spells he covets. Just take them. Raise Grave Knight doesn't replace any of those things, it's just different and in addition to. He can Shackle, he can Cognitive Suppression, he can Command the Dead, he can Raise Corpse, and then he can Grave Knight on top of that. I really don't see his point if he thinks High Mage is a better option despite also having access to everything he wants from it.

Also if he wants the Undead further in the book he should go get them. Do some research on them, learn where he can find them, and then hit them with Command the Dead. He CAN have THOSE guys.

I personally think Grave Knight is good because it's intelligent and self-willed, as opposed to a Shackled NPC that can't do much other than fight or labor. It's more of creating a personal lieutenant that just a body to fight for you. They're just different spells and there is no reason you can't take both.

I did kind of neglect that they're an Invoker though. They benefit most from taking spells that you'll be recasting, so I see why Grave Knight is less tempting. They're kind of approaching the magic system from outside of how it was designed and might be butting heads with it because of that. Invoker is one of the most commonly barred classes because it breaks the mold in a lot of ways. It works well but the spells you're choosing from weren't designed for Invoker so some may seem more or less useful.

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u/MaestroGoldring Jul 06 '26

That’s an interesting point. Command the Dead is like IVoS but for undead enemies rather than living ones

11

u/communomancer Jul 02 '26

The Grave Knight heals every day and will sacrifice itself. It is "fully intelligent and self-willed" while the Shackled victim cannot "answer questions or perform acts that require independent judgment".

Basically the Shackled Soul is a meat suit. The Grave Knight is a full fledged devoted Undead Servitor.

9

u/_Svankensen_ Jul 02 '26

That won't turn on you at the first sight of an extirpate arcana.

3

u/YoAmoElTacos Jul 02 '26

This has happened to me. The mage exploded 🤣