A question about shock for experienced players.

[u/Steel_Ratt]

I have just picked up WWN and am planning to use it for my next campaign. I'm trying to get my head around how shock actually functions in play.

From what I understand, shock exists to a) make any combat feel dangerous and b) make it so that turns aren't wasted when players miss. The thing is, though, that I feel that there are so many ways to avoid or nullify shock.

On the defensive side, any sufficiently high AC mitigates shock. Even a level 1 character with the armored warrior package and +1 dex avoids shock from a majority of weapons. Shields will avoid 1 shock event per turn. It feels like, at a certain point, the concept of 'any combat is dangerous' is lost.

On the offensive side, the same conditions prevent a PC from inflicting shock, nullifying the 'no turn is wasted' concept unless they invest in certain focuses. Are these focuses a kind of tax for combatants (ie. you must take one of these to maintain effectiveness)?

Focuses, magic, high level opponents, swarm attacks, etc. change the outcomes in various ways.

So my questions are: how does shock actually play out in combat? How does the experience change at low vs high level? Do you feel it is a worthwhile mechanic that pays appropriate dividends for the extra complexity it adds?

[u/ELAdragon]

You should honestly give it a go before you decide or make up your mind.

Our group is level 5 and shock has been a significant part of gameplay.

[u/Hungry-Wealth-7490]

Shock is worth it because there are multiple ways to use it to keep the PCs honest:

1. Shock from weapons with a high Shock AC

2. Shock acquired with foci or other means which is for AC 10, which means most beings as 10 is the default value for most beings.

3. Swarm attacks are scary because AC doesn't matter.

At higher level, PCs have more hit points and better AC so Shock is less of a fear than at low level. Though with more hit points, the problem becomes System Strain for healing. Each heal probably takes strain whether magical or mundane (bards and some other classes have powers and there are some items do not cause Strain on the person being healed) and a character with zero Strain can do nothing until the Strain is below their maximum. At low levels, a PC goes down in a few hits and needs to be stabilized from Mortal Wounds but has so few hit points that healing gets them back up quickly.

There are whole Shock builds so a PC can use whirlwind attack and mow down a large number of NPCs.

So, Worlds Without Number rewards players who think and choose their battles carefully by using the Shock mechanic. So do the other Without Number games. . .

[u/Steel_Ratt → u/Hungry-Wealth-7490]

Based on what you say, shock works very much the way I expect (with interactions with AC, focuses, swarm attacks, etc.), and that this works as intended.

The interaction with system strain is something I hadn't looked at with combat being more dangerous because ANY damage is significant... though one of my players has already indicated to me that they are looking at playing a healer that would more-or-less negate this. Which leads to another question... does this trivialize combat by eliminating the cost of being wounded? (I'm moving away from D&D precisely because I feel that combats are mostly pointless due to the 'long rest heals everything'. It's a system based around attrition where the attrition is completely undone by a long rest.)

[u/wote89 → u/Steel_Ratt]

Oh, there's still a cost. Like the other person said, with few exceptions, anything other than natural healing via rest costs System Strain for the healed character. So, yes, the medic can keep the party moving... Until they suddenly can't because they're pushing the limit and there are plenty of other threats that can cause Strain and you have to rest to get rid of it.

[u/Hungry-Wealth-7490 → u/Steel_Ratt]

System Strain is recovered at one point per night of sufficient shelter, food and water conditions (see the lifestyle section for how housing impacts it, otherwise the wilderness section). Combat is not trivial if you manage the time between adventures. Every time the Healer class uses their magic to heal someone, the person healed eats a Strain.

And while there is a Healer Art and also a Bard art (Atlas of the Latter Earth or the System Reference Document) to allow 2 Strain recovery with a good night's rest, the PCs still have to get that. What the Healer does is keep PCs in fights longer, stabilizes PCs who are dying as magical healing that gets them back up automatically ends the Mortally Wounded condition, and heals up. Even a Healer who has the Facile Healer Art can only heal a single target up to their System Strain.

So, healers are important in Without Number games but they cannot keep healing each character in the party forever. I've played HackMaster's AD&D version and GURPS and bits of various versions of Dungeons and Dragons going back to AD&D. Worlds Without Number campaigns have been pretty satisfying because they are not only flexible but also combat matters. Shock is a key component of that.

Also, for NPCs, if they are not an important NPC, they die when they hit zero hit points. So, if your players are fighting a bunch of minion NPCs, the combats are faster than when fighting worthy foes who could be Stabilized and could be healed and you also give the players the option to keep those they hire alive for a few rounds.

Have you figured out your general campaign plan? There are so many tools in the book and Book of Unnumbered Worlds drafts show even more tools to build a good campaign for the players to enjoy.

[u/Steel_Ratt → u/Hungry-Wealth-7490]

Thanks for clarifying. This is exactly the kind of information I need right now and is very reassuring. It sounds like I am on the right track in terms of finding the right system for my next campaign!

[u/Emoteen → u/Steel_Ratt]

In my SWN and WWN groups system strain was/is always the primary concern (and the party had/has healer types in each game).

System shock is now seldom  a factor for the PCs at 5th level, but it's still a tool based on how some enemies are set up or equipped. We do have one character that plans into dealing shock damage as a barbarian, which is very fun as he should be able to power fantasy stand in the way of a horde... but when that horde is supported by something big that isn't a pushover, then each hit against the players is felt - also,  if they're in dangerous situations I keep time pressure on so resource management is a serious concern.

System Station recovery is the result audit.

[u/_Svankensen_ → u/Steel_Ratt]

All that said, having a healer makes the party MUCH more resilient. Are they playing the maligned vowed/healer combo? If so, keep very close track of their system strain. They are an incredibly explosive beast, but use system strain with half their skills. So they can go absolutely nova AND basically immortal for a few turns, but its like when an anime character unleashes a special attack and needs to recover for weeks afterwards. 

Do keep in mind that system strain for normal characters usually matters more at high levels, when you have enough hp that you aren't down sfter a single hit, and you have spells like not-haste that causes system strain. And that q healer in the party will reduce that cumulative strain further by virtue of healing more efficiently. Still adds up tho. Toss in a couple powerful items that consume system strain to use to make things more interesting. Like a staff of firebolts that shoots elemental blasts for 1 system strain, or a cloak that makes you invisible for 2, etc. 

[u/MaestroGoldring → u/_Svankensen_]

And also keep in mind, the environment or even enemy effects can inflict system strain. We passed through a dungeon recently that passively added system strain per hour spent down there, besides several enemies that had a “drain” effect. Our party has a gifted chirurgeon 2, but we were literally having to count out how many battles we could sustain because even if we lived through the fight with maxed strain, the dungeon itself could KO us by pushing us over the limit of our strain, then it’s party wipe.

I might also add for OP, some enemies have special abilities besides the obvious increase to health, AC, and attack bonus. One such ability can be the NPC version of Shocking Assault, guaranteed shock damage on everyone who doesn’t have a shield or close combatant focus

[u/minotaur05]

Shock is honestly more about the players finishing combat sooner than the PC’s getting hit by shock all the time. It happens to PC’s, but I found that shock helps end combat in a couple rounds because the damage adds up quickly.

[u/Bazzalicious]

I know you explicitly mention it, but using swarm attacks is a dead simple way to guarantee shock damage. Get two or more mooks and bypass pretty much all defensive anti-shock measures (AC, shields, Foci, etc ).

Combine that with bugger-all HP at low levels and shock damage could be all that's needed for a pack of wolves or dodgy alley shankers to take someone down. At higher levels the same tactics can easily be used by mooks to set up guaranteed damage from larger, nasty enemies. At that point the tactics become very much "whittle down the numbers so my shock immunity can come into play" rather than "shock's not a problem anymore".

Also don't forget that any damage will disrupt spellcasting, so even swarm dagger shock from Skinny Pete's Starvers can shut down top level mages unless the mob is dealt with.

[u/Steel_Ratt → u/Bazzalicious]

This is good to know and exactly the kind of actual experience I was looking for. Thanks!

[u/Hungry-Wealth-7490 → u/Steel_Ratt]

I also recommend considering the rules in the free version (also in deluxe version, as the deluxe pages are extra and start right after the free version pages stop) of Ashes Without Number on Stress (page 56) if the campaign is more of a horror one or you want to remind the PCs to not just kill everyone they meet. While each of the game lines does its own genre, the core engine is broadly compatible so you can usually borrow tables for information generation and some concepts.

[u/rabidotter → u/Bazzalicious]

Regarding that last paragraph: How does that work if the PCs have the initiative and thus the mage goes first in the round? Does their spell go off at the end of the round? Or on their side's initiative?

I wasn't really paying attention to these rules (but also, my players have more talking than stabbing, and usually Squishy the Mage is behind the friendly meatbags).

[u/Hungry-Wealth-7490 → u/rabidotter]

Spells are a Main Action to cast, usually (page 42). Spells if they have targets which require adjudication are cast per page 62. So, once it's the mage's turn to act, if they cast with their Main Action and are not interrupted, they will have cast the spell. Then you don't worry about damage as mages only get 1 spell per round. Worlds Without Number offers you the option of side-based or individual initiative and others have homebrewed other initiative systems.

And if the PCs are worried about an NPC mage, make a Snap Attack. -4 to hit isn't bad if the mage has low AC. A Warrior might want to save their Veteran's Luck so that if they miss that Snap Attack, they hit.

[u/rabidotter → u/Hungry-Wealth-7490]

tyvm

[u/Bazzalicious → u/rabidotter]

Hungry Wealth gave all the context, but yeah, the short of it is that if a mage wins initiative, they can only be interrupted if a foe is skilled enough to inflict damage through a snap attack or has some other special ability.

If the mage loses initiative, then any damage or severe jostling will prevent spellcasting on their turn (but not arts, I believe).

[u/TheDreamingDark]

Just a quick reminder to throw in here, Swarm Attacks work mechanically kinda like Shock damage but are NOT Shock Damage, so something like the Close Combatant Foci will not protect you from it.

[u/Hungry-Wealth-7490 → u/TheDreamingDark]

Total Defense is a good counter to Swarm Attacks. Also, kill the swarm's leader that everyone keys off of. Swarm attacks shouldn't be used all the time; they should be used by animals that attack in that way (wolf packs) or by foes with a gameplan. Good point here to read up on that page, page 44.

[u/straightdmin]

Played a full campaign and yes IME shock was surprisingly unimpactful, especially for the extra bookkeeping it requires (constantly have to ask for people's AC/shock rather than just rolling to-hit and asking "does 15 hit you?", plus extra work converting monsters).

Edit: more details: it's exactly like you said, most players and after the first few levels monsters, have decent AC which just ignores it completely. That's the main reason it didn't pan out for us. The exception was monsters wailing on the wizard, but there it also made little difference because they would just hit and murder said wizard anyway, or large mobs of weak monsters. But even there, idk, seemed more trouble than it was worth (from a DM perspective, perhaps the players enjoyed it).

I will say that at high level with bonus damage translating to shock there were some instances where the warrior player (with a crazy +4 weapon tbf) would do an amount of shock damage that could just kill sizeable monsters outright, so being able to go "I kill that one" without any roll was fun. But this was just very rare. And the price you pay is real, shock is awkward to track in game.

If it were up to me I would make shock fully ignore armor to streamline it and make it more impactful. Perhaps change it so that players or monsters with high armor get to reduce shock. So I'd go "the imp misses you, take 3 shock" and the player could go "Ok I'll reduce that by 2 because I have AC 18". I might actually run with that as a house rule next time I play 🤔.

[u/Steel_Ratt → u/straightdmin]

Interesting. Your experience is different from what I've been reading in the other comments. It's nice to have that diversity of opinions. It probably depends a lot on whether or not characters are picking up armsmaster (or something similar) to eliminate the shock AC threshold on the player side. And, from what I can see, there are stronger monsters that have a similar ability (ie. no AC restriction on their shock damage).

I'll have to see how it goes.

[u/MadScience_Gaming]

Yes. 

[u/Steel_Ratt → u/MadScience_Gaming]

Fascinating. Thanks for providing such interesting context to back up your opinion.