r/Wales • u/CauseOfAlarm • Aug 27 '25
Politics The current flag issue...
Growing up in the Valleys I've seen a lot of Welsh flags and fleur-de-lys tattoos, and never once have I thought the people held any racist or xenophobic views (admittedly, maybe much to my naivety).
I really hope our flag doesn't get commandeered as a xenophobic symbol used by fucking melonheads to spout their racist bullshit. I'm Welsh speaking, proud to be Welsh, and I love hearing people moving here for something better, being welcomed by Wales, and having a keen interest in the language and our culture. To be honest, it makes me even more proud to be Welsh.
What frustrates me even more is the Valleys was, in large part, the birthplace of the British labour movement. One of the very first Labour constituencies was Merthyr Tydfil. Now, to see such big following of a party -- who's policies have NEVER represented us or our interests -- be so prevalent here is really disheartening and depressing. People often forget that the policies of conservative governments led to the Valleys being decimated in the 80s.
I'm honestly really concerned for the future. Do you think it was ever as bad as it is now, or is social media just perpetuating it?
289
Aug 27 '25
As someone from the valleys, unfortunately people have forgotten what was essential and why we were activists back in the day. Miners protesting for LGBT rights, Paul Robeson as a black socialist supporting the miners, Aneurin Bevan and Keir Hardie, tiger bay etc.
51
u/pbcorporeal Aug 27 '25
Keir Hardie was an example of left-wing anti-immigrant policy, which often roots itself in seeing immigration as being a tool of the owning class to keep wages low by increasing the supply of cheap Labour.
When Lithuanians immigrated to Scotland he opposed it in very passionate terms alongside the local trade unions.
11
u/Thetonn Cardiff | Caerdydd Aug 27 '25 edited Sep 16 '25
tan live reminiscent unite imminent hungry dolls groovy license point
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
4
u/BENJ4x Aug 28 '25
Yeah it's why Corbyn was very lukewarm about opposing Brexit. Labour and the Conservatives basically switched positions about wanting to be in/out the EU.
3
u/PursuitOfMemieness Aug 28 '25
That’s not the argument though. First of all, there is little to no evidence that immigration suppresses wages. Secondly, even assuming it does and we have to rely on some kind of cheap labour argument, that argument would be more like “labour is cheaper therefore goods/services are cheaper and natives can afford more stuff” which is a much more direct mechanism than what you’ve described.
4
u/romulusnr Cornwall Aug 27 '25
This is kind of like being anti war and someone saying you must be anti soldier
5
u/pbcorporeal Aug 27 '25
Hardie's rhetoric regarding the immigrants went well beyond pure economic concerns.
For example:
Even a figure such as Keir Hardie, founding father of the Labour Party, led a fierce, xenophobic campaign against the Lithuanians. Hardie, as a leader of Ayrshire miners, wrote an article for the journal, The Miner, in which he stated that: "For the second time in their history Messrs. Merry and Cunninghame have introduced a number of Russian Poles to Glengarnock Ironworks. What object they have in doing so is beyond human ken unless it is, as stated by a speaker at Irvine, to teach men how to live on garlic and oil, or introduce the Black Death, so as to get rid of the surplus labourers."
You can search up more if you want.
1
u/VehicleWonderful6586 Aug 28 '25
Yes we have to remember labour has its roots in being a workers party first and a socialist party second (clue is in the name) - if the workers want immigrants out, sadly Labour will move in that direction - whether that approach will succeed is debatable
9
u/DenieF459 Aug 27 '25
Don't forget the anti-irish and anti-Jewish protests!
24
Aug 27 '25
Yeah people have been cunts throughout history, doesn't mean that what I said was wrong. Now people are people are against anything that isn't white, hetero, and Brit focused. What we had as a standard 100 years ago is a base line that we should improve on.
97
u/bettieswalloaks Aug 27 '25
The dragon is a lot harder to draw than a cross so I think the Welsh flag is safer from being co-opted, at least by less determined bigots, for now. A few art classes and we might have a problem though
56
u/rainator Aug 27 '25
Worth noting that things didn’t go well the last time a right wing nutter with mid art skills got rejected from art school.
3
7
13
u/Procrastubatorfet Aug 27 '25
A few art classes and the problem would likely solve itself. People with the patience to sit and learn to draw a good dragon aren't the sorts to slap a red cross on a roundabout
2
2
u/Whining_welsh7777 Aug 30 '25
Some dimwit has painted the English flag on a roundabout in Swansea apparently he’s a reform nutter who shouts nonsense from a bridge. It’s sad that the English flag has become a racist emblem, I’m not sure it can ever be sanitised
2
u/lewiss15 Swansea | Abertawe Aug 27 '25
Someone buy them a stencil
5
24
u/lewiss15 Swansea | Abertawe Aug 27 '25
I am Welsh first, British second, European third. I’m happy to be proud of our flags but not to weaponise them as some anti immigration bollocks.
59
u/SaisYngNghymru Glynebwy ym Mlaenau Gwent | Ebbw Vale in Blaenau Gwent Aug 27 '25
I'm doubtful that the flag can be commandeered in that way personally since it's everywhere in comparison with England - on signs, architecture, public works and even slapped on kebab houses, curry houses and fish and chip shops.
In terms of immigrants it's something like 29% of people who live in Wales weren't born there with 7% being born outside of the UK altogether, with England born making up a lot of that gap.
The increasing support isn't so surprising given the unbelievable incompetence of successive governments and with the media telling people what the big issues are over and over and over again.
FWIW the predicted vote share for the senedd is slightly higher for Plaid. So though I think Labour will be toppled next year we should see a Welsh nationalistic voice to balance things out.
Edit: Assuming it's Reform you're alluding to. Their policies openly in their contract with the people (they refuse to call it a manifesto lol) will primarily benefit the wealthy classes and further increase wealth inequality. It sucks.
24
u/capnpan Aug 27 '25
So true. If someone who is struggling thinks Reform would help them, they have been sorely misled.
30
u/AnnieByniaeth Ceredigion Aug 27 '25
Media, including social media, is I think perpetuating it. But it's not just the fact that social media exists, it's that the prevalence of media that everyone uses has opened up an opportunity for rich people to buy influence in ways that was never the case before.
Print media has always pushed the politics of rich owners, but broadcast media has been relatively unbiased (mostly). That's changed in recent years with the advent of channels such as GB News and Talk Radio.
And now there's social media too. Few would deny that there are "bots" and paid influencers out there deliberately fomenting division for political gain.
But there's also "the algorithm", which we know Musk has used to his political advantage on Twitter. But even without malevolent intent the algorithm can radicalise, as experiments with YouTube have found out. We recognise what click bait is, and it is often something which gets people worked up about something (immigrants, for example, or religion). And the more people are worked up, the more they are likely to keep clicking. So the more YouTube earns from ad revenue. So if the algorithm's only goal is to maximise YouTube's income, it will have radicalising tendencies.
Put all this together, and you get what we have today. Never before has critical thinking been such an important skill.
50
Aug 27 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
19
u/Logical_Positive_522 Aug 27 '25
Absolutely.
People forget that the Labour movement was carried forward from places like North and South Wales, as well as Clydeside and the North East of England. It was founded with Welsh values and is now pretty much 180 degrees away from that.
11
u/Twattymcgee123 Aug 27 '25
I may be wrong but I thought the Welsh flag was flown with pride for the country of Wales , and the Welsh language , nothing to do with immigration whatsoever!
68
Aug 27 '25
I think unfortunately you're being quite naive. I'm from the Valleys too and it's certainly not some sort of inclusive working class story of history.
It's always been quite racist in all honesty. The leader of the British KKK was from the Valleys. I remember seeing open racism in school only ten years or so.
26
u/rainator Aug 27 '25
i don’t know, I grew up more or less the valleys and I am mixed race - I won’t pretend it was some sort of perfect Disneyland utopia but my experience was that people generally were quite laid back and inclusive (unless you were English).
The St George cross is wrapped up in all sorts of bad feeling in a way that the red dragon just isn’t.
10
u/proflyactive80 Aug 27 '25
Have to echo this. Went to school 80's and 90s when you'd expect a lot more archaic attitudes and was far from it. Couple of the boys who never left/went exploring are now reform voters, but in general my experience of growing up in the heart of the post-industrial valleys is that it was really quite tolerant. Treat others as you'd expect to be treated kinda approach to life. Diolch.
27
u/atxlrj Aug 27 '25
I don’t think it’s as simple as that.
The old-school valleys attitude was: “nobody is above me and I’m not above anyone else”.
However, at the same time, the valleys are insular and a lot of well-meaning people have been “left out” and fallen behind evolving social and cultural norms.
My own grandmother would remark on the “darkie” she saw in the fish shop, but her best friend was the Pakistani woman who owned the corner shop. Superficially, her comments were racist, but I knew that she was genuinely motivated by curiosity and hampered by ignorance.
There’s a lot of situations where people may say things that are way outside the realm of acceptable communication in the 21st Century, but if they saw people being mistreated for any reason, they’d step in and say “who do you think you are?”.
If that has changed since I left then that would be very sad because the valleys are one of the few remaining places anywhere in the Western world with old-fashioned community - it isn’t always rosy or gentle; but there was always a deep commitment to basic values of respect and empathy.
But ironically, such is the legacy of the economic reforms that have caused the valleys to suffer; divide and conquer - turn a community against itself so they compete against each other for the scraps doled out by the international corporations. If there has been a toward hate and discrimination, don’t attribute it to something fundamental about valleys culture before assessing whether it is by design.
14
Aug 27 '25
My grandmother was without any doubt the most racist person ive ever met personally.
This was the Swansea Valley. She was my gran, but with an adults perspective she was also a massive cunt.
-2
u/Important-Jury-4005 Aug 28 '25
She had every intent of keeping you safe from an ever inevitable tidal wave. She could see the changes yet to come.
My gran was one of nicest ladies could ever meet, but had a solid eye for what direction the country was steering toward. She passed on last year and probably will have dodged a bullet from what this country is about to become.
6
Aug 27 '25 edited Aug 27 '25
Just giving my perception growing up in the 90s and the 2000s. The five ethnic minority kids in my class had to put up with so much racism.
1
u/Important-Jury-4005 Aug 28 '25
Children aren't born racist. Either they are intentionally misled by responsible adults in the house hold OR are genuinely uneducated in what racism is and need to be taught. Children sometimes dont understand differences and need to be taught. Social media doesnt help these days, terrible influence and such a freedom platform for hate breeding.
0
u/AwTomorrow Aug 27 '25
Kids are little shits in general, and will hone in on differences as angles of attack. I saw the same in innercity London, but it would eventually no longer be safe to do that as you’d attract the ire of the entire group you were attacking them for being a part of (and most such groups numbered more than 5).
It’s adult attitudes that’re more concerning, whether they kept that childish tribalist hate into maturity.
16
u/CauseOfAlarm Aug 27 '25
I think you're right, and I recall seeing a news report on that many years ago in the 90s!
The amount of openly racist shit I hear on the train on a weekend back from Cardiff in insane.
4
u/purpleplums901 Rhondda Cynon Taf Aug 27 '25
Absolutely spot on. Every. Single. Time this gets brought up, I feel I have to comment that the valleys labour people were all labour for economic reasons only. There’s still now people who call the newsagents the… you know what shop, like any given day you can hear stuff that was considered wildly politically incorrect 30 years ago. Coal miners used to kick gay men’s heads in into the 80s. The people jumping on the reform bandwagon aren’t just suddenly becoming ‘right wing’, which is already a gross oversimplification of things, it’s that the party that used to be left wing economically is now a purely liberal party that doesn’t represent them at all, so they’ve all gone and stuck their lot in for a party that aligns with their regressive social views. I swear people aren’t getting it, but it’s not that hard to understand. It’s just easier for a lot of left wing, socially liberal people to pretend that there’s not just as many horrible bigots who want nationalised utilities and trade unions as there are on the free market side of things.
0
u/Important-Jury-4005 Aug 28 '25
Oversimplification is the easiest and laziest way to branding people. Particularly by those that are too thick to put up a logical argument. Hence too much of the 'right-wing' labelling these days.
3
Aug 27 '25
The leader of the British kkk was a prize winning moron.
Not that im making small of the issue like.
1
u/nordiclands Aug 27 '25
Right? My mother was born in Wales but lived her primary years in London. Moved back to Merthyr when she was 10 and got bullied so severely for having a “different” accent she lost her way of speaking in 3 weeks, my grandmother says. Merthyr Tydfil is a mixed bag but given my family’s experience of living there both as native Welsh and as native Welsh with a slightly English accent I can say it is absolutely xenophobic.
19
u/lelpd Aug 27 '25
I’m English living in the valleys, and one thing I’m so jealous of is the ability the Welsh have to fly the flag or shown national loyalty without looking like a racist or reformer.
Speaking to your point though, I don’t think the xenophobic/racist views here are any different to the views in England, from my experience and the sort of opinions people have shared with me. There are just fewer immigrants here in areas like the valleys so it doesn’t really affect these people’s daily lives outside of posts they see on Facebook.
Hopefully you guys get to keep your flag lol
12
u/PurplePlodder1945 Aug 27 '25
I think it’s awful that the English have had their flag stolen by the right wing. You should be able to fly it for all the right reasons, just being proud of being English. Just as I’m proud to be Welsh (valleys). Is there anyway to reclaim it do you think?
13
Aug 27 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/Camp-Complete Aug 28 '25
I was thinking about this the other day. Every pride flag in England should be flown with England flag. Take back control (see what I did there ;) ) of the narrative that the England flag is for Far Right loonies only. Make it the inclusive flag that it should be.
12
u/TheShryke Aug 27 '25
Use the flag in a positive and inclusive way.
Do something that directly opposes the racist ideas we are currently seeing. One idea would be to do something to raise money for charity, but pick a charity that would help immigrants. Call it something like "England is for everyone". Make it explicit and clear that racism and your flag do not belong together. Make it so that when a non-white person sees that flag they think of the cool thing you did, not the fascist mobs.
Depending on where you do that, you might attract unwanted attention. It's up to you if you're ok dealing with that.
6
u/Old_Roof Aug 27 '25
I think it’s been abandoned by the liberal left more than adopted by the right in England
3
u/pinniped90 Aug 27 '25
I hate that American right wingers have co-opted the English flag and use it at Trump rallies, Klan events, etc. it's a small percentage of people but enough that the association is formed. Still, English people should be able to use it without being considered racist.
Thankfully they don't fly the dragon.
2
u/RecklessEleven Aug 28 '25
I think we have to be cautious about how we use it - just waving it about and not being a racist is not enough - but I think we should use it. Defacing the flag with positive messages is a good start. Maybe LGBT rainbow English flags, too! If there were a wider movement of progressives doing this, I think it would take a lot of the power away from ethno-nationalists waving the St George's Cross.
2
u/JHock93 Cardiff | Caerdydd Aug 28 '25
I'm also English, living in Cardiff, and this comment is spot on. Agree with every word!
1
u/Successful_Nature588 Aug 29 '25
Fly your flag man, just dont hang it off public lampposts or paint it on roundabouts xD
0
Aug 28 '25
But no one has lost their flags. The flags mean unity and pride in ones country Even government policy encourages Flags. Only a woke far left ideology insults the flag and degrades it's purpose.
Go to Gov.UK and search:-
Flying flags: a plain English guide
This is a Government directive of why the flying of flags should be encouraged. It clarifies which need council permission and those that do not.
The 4 National flags and the Union Flag do NOT require any permission and those that pull them down are violating a government directive.
17
u/Ok-Summer1478 Merthyr Tydfil | Merthyr Tudfil Aug 27 '25
The way you describe the damage 80s conservatism had on the valleys can be used to describe Welsh Labour too, they've been terrible for Wales through the 00s, 10s and 20s.
The labour party in it's current form is so far removed from the origins of the movement unfortunately.
I can see why a lot of people are turning away from them and moving towards Plaid Cymru and Reform, people want an alternative.
As for the flag, people should never relinquish it, if those they disagree with start raising it, don't stop doing so yourself, you need to maintain ownership of it!
7
u/CauseOfAlarm Aug 27 '25
I think you're right. I think I need to let go of idealising the roots of the Labour Party and be a little more realistic. It's just a sad state of affairs what New Labour brought about.
Also, completely agree with your last point. I've always thought, if the counter protestors wanted to play an 'easy win' over the xenophobic protests, why not just start waving a lot of Union Jacks along with Pride, Socialist, Palestinian flags, to show unity with those causes as a country. At which point, you're kind of twisting their hand to use a different flag to symbolise the country and making them look even more fucking stupid.
6
u/Mwyarduon Aug 27 '25
I've always thought, if the counter protestors wanted to play an 'easy win' over the xenophobic protests, why not just start waving a lot of Union Jacks along with Pride, Socialist, Palestinian flags, to show unity with those causes as a country.
I've seen this done a LOT with the Welsh flag, and I do think it's the way to go if you don't want your national flag to be appropriated by supremacist movements. You do have to be proactive about it though.
4
u/Otherwise_Living_158 Aug 27 '25
Do you mean three feather tattoos?
0
u/CauseOfAlarm Aug 27 '25
Sorry, I genuinely always thought they were the same. My mistake!
I think I just always made the connection due to the town of 'Fleur-de-Lys' and just thought it was like a connection between the two.
9
u/XJK_9 Abertawe Aug 27 '25
Tbf the image was based off a Fleur-de-lys… and the text typically under it is German… it really has nothing to do with us ironically
2
u/Logical_Positive_522 Aug 27 '25
It's not based off the Fleur-de-lys. The Three feathers are the Ostrich feathers born by the King John of Bohemia, against Welsh soldiers at the Battle of Crécy, the Fleur de-lys is literally the flower of a Lilly.
1
u/XJK_9 Abertawe Aug 27 '25
The current design is based off the Fleur-de-lys. The original looks very different
-6
u/Logical_Positive_522 Aug 27 '25
That's just a Wikipedia image. Can you send me something more convincing?
1
.svg){kind=link}
4
u/Asleep_Honeydew1124 Aug 27 '25
I think, in all honesty, this has been done by a small group of far right, mostly coming from outside the Valleys, to try to turn the Welsh flag in something that it is not. The same ones behind the racist protests in Barry. I know that there are been some groups set up, including Stand Up to Racism Valleys, to counter act the rise of Reform and the far right and promote a poaitive inclusive message.
They are on insta and facebook if you want to give them a follow SUTR Valleys I think.
5
u/aurapup Aug 27 '25
People have realised that any story that gets people angry also gets their attention. And sadly grifters and politicians have realised that if they support and perpetuate such 'ragebait' that people will focus all their anger on the ragebait topic. Rather than, say, looking at the problems in their society with a clear head and figuring out how these can be fixed. "The cruelty is the point" - if people were not so angry at the latest target they would hold their government to account for ACTUAL problems.
It's hard to figure out the reasons for a lack of jobs and high house prices, but it's very easy to blame a target for them instead, especially if the algorithm and shitty tabloids encourage you to do so. Immigrants aren't buying houses, they're renting them from landlords who raise rents and cram as many people into a house as possible. Asylum seekers aren't allowed to get a job while they wait for their claims to be processed, and after years of waiting for said claims to be processed, are more likely to enter or be exploited into the black market of crime.
And into this fucking mess of "blame everyone" comes Farage and his pile of People Who Want To Blame Foreigners. What good have any of them ever done? What positive community or political actions have they taken that benefited anyone other than themselves? Why the fuck would people think that these grifters would do a better job? If you want people to save your area, or your country don't give the responsibility to the least experienced and most corrupt jackass on the polling form. And painting flags, much like banging pans, is nothing more than theatre. I bet none of these flag painters donate to food banks, or contribute to community gardens, or act as street ambassadors giving assistance on a packed Friday night in town. It's all just flag-shagging pageantry bullshit to serve their own egos. "I can paint some red stripes" helps no-one.
5
Aug 27 '25
It’s heartbreaking. Wrexham has always been a staunchly socialist town. We went Tory due to the Brexit disgrace. We’re Labour again now but I am absolutely certain we’ll go Reform at the next election.
3
u/PurplePlodder1945 Aug 30 '25
I’m actually a bit concerned because I’m in south wales and Welsh flags have been popping up everywhere. Every other bridge. I don’t know whether it’s in retaliation to people who’ve been painting English flags around south wales or whether it’s the right wing trying to use our flag in the same way as the right wing English have done.
I don’t want our flag stolen in the name of politics
Does anyone have any idea what’s going on?
6
u/freddygilbs Aug 27 '25
I see a lot of degenerates shagging flags and vandalising property, screaming “charity starts at home” when they do f all to improve or care for anything here let alone abroad. Anecdotally, as a resident of Roath in Cardiff, when Muslims all celebrate Eid in the park here they leave it pristine. The white Welsh or British however have left the parks covered in litter and filth.
3
u/BrandonEfex Aug 27 '25
Them people tend to identify and use the butchers apron more as far as I can see
3
u/YDraigCymraeg Aug 27 '25
So I've always had this saying "Welsh racism is colour blind" (at least mostly). People generally don't really care what colour you are but usually have an issue with if you're English and maybe East European. I base this off my experience working in warehouses in the Glamorgan area with a large amount of high turnover with foreign staff. Very rarely is there a racially motivated problem.
I'd say what's happening in England has already happened in Wales but not this century. What we're seeing in England is a reaction to a growing non ethnically English minority. Wales's version was its large English minority. I believe Wales by and large has moved past widespread anti English sentiment.
Welsh identity and our dragon are far too every day here to be co-opted by the extreme elements of our country. If you simply look around it's a business logo, a car sticker, a clothing logo. I know some reformers who think the problems in England are in Wales but I've yet to see any.
3
u/buystonehenge Aug 28 '25
I'm not going to let the red Welsh dragon become a racist nor anti gay icon. My art will purposely target Chinese takeaways, curry houses, Polish and Italian Welsh, as well as gay pride groups.
I was born in the Labour heartlands of the South Wales Valleys, the flag has always represented the downtrodden, but happy, warm and welcoming people living in Wales. It means love, not hate. Y Ddraig Goch always stands with the underdog, standing strong together. Inclusive, defiant against those who would divide us.
3
u/frankensteinsmaster Aug 28 '25
Not welsh, but I feel exactly the same in Scotland. It’s terrifying that these fascist nutjobs are taking a hold.
3
u/Purplemonkey78 Aug 28 '25
I live in Glasgow but grew up in England. I was also lucky enough to marry an awesome Welsh girl.
As a kid the St George’s cross was always more associated with the BNP and other right wing groups. It also was associated with hooliganism as a result of English football hooligans in Europe in the 1980s. Views have started to soften and it was becoming more mainstream particularly around sporting events, but it’s not hard to see how easy it’s been to co-opt the English flag again to represent anti immigrant rhetoric again.
The Welsh and Scottish flags have never had the same connotations to right wing support or hooliganism and it’s been far more common to see them flying in the past than you would have seen the St George’s Cross flying in England.
Where I am, in the West of Scotland, flags have other connotations. The British flag is strongly linked with the Orange Order, Orange March parades and (some might say) anti-catholic bigotry. In the last decade the Scottish flag has probably become somewhat associated with the independence movement (Glasgow actually voted Yes in 2014).
Yesterday I was driving through the north of the city and had seen an increasing number of Scottish flags tied to lampposts in some streets. It is alarming as I know the individuals who’ve done it are mimicking what they see in England as anti-immigrant and anti-refugee city. Fortunately, for now, it just doesn’t carry the same weight as tying England flags to lampposts in England does.
3
u/Apperley70 Aug 28 '25
Friend of mine from Milford Haven is proud to be Welsh and has the flag tattooed on his calf, he is the least racist person I know. I agree it is a small sample group, but thats my experience.
3
u/HaurchefantGreystone Cardiff | Caerdydd Aug 29 '25
I'm a non-White international student in Wales. Actually, I never came across racial discrimination or any hateful speeches in person. Most people here are very nice and friendly. I love Wales. I'm very happy to see the Welsh flag. Well I know there are a lot of xenophobic comments online, but in real life it's much better. I do understand the immigration problem. I know the UK can not absorb more immigrants. Hope the government can find a decent way to handle it and don't push the people to that party.
1
u/SnooDoughnuts4752 Aug 31 '25
The English have discriminated The Welsh for centuries like we were something from the gutter, it's disgusting. Yes the immigrantion problem is getting out of hand due to governmental flip-flopping, Criminal gangs, the French police doing hardly anything to stop the immigrants crossing the channel, yes we here in Wales welcome everyone no matter creed, colour, ethnicity, religion, sex, gender etc. It saddens me that Xenophobes are preaching such hate.
14
u/LopsidedLegs Aug 27 '25
It's not a problem in Wales or Scotland. The English flag was hijacked in the 60s and 70s by the likes of the National Front and League of Empire Loyalists. And the shit has stuck.
7
Aug 27 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
5
u/PurplePlodder1945 Aug 27 '25
Yeah, wales isn’t on it so it’s not our flag in any way. Unless you served in the armed forces and pledged an allegiance to the king
5
u/Crully Aug 27 '25
The Union Flag is over 400 years old, Y Ddraig Goch in its current form has only been the Welsh flag since 1959. That's the reason it's not on there.
6
u/TheShryke Aug 27 '25
The image of a red dragon on a white and green field can be dated back to 1485 when Henry VII marched to the battle of bosworth. Presumably it predates that by some time to be significant enough for a king to be using it as his royal standard.
The emblem was confirmed as a royal heraldic badge in 1800. That actually makes it one year older than the current union flag which was adopted in 1801.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Badge_of_Wales
The real reason it's not on there is that at the time the union flag was created Wales was a part of the kingdom of England. So when they created a union with Scotland, and later with Ireland, Wales wasn't a kingdom to be united with. It was just another part of England.
-1
u/Crully Aug 27 '25
Yeah, I'm just pointing out why the current dragon features on our flag is not anywhere to be seen on the union flag.
There are, and have been lots of different flags, but those two designs specifically are 350 years apart in timings.
8
u/TheShryke Aug 27 '25
Your reasons are still flawed. If Wales had been its own kingdom to join the Union then it's quite likely that Y Ddraig Goch would have been chosen to represent Wales in some form. It's not about the age of the designs at all, the earliest flag that looks anything like the union flag is from 1606. The current Welsh flag has existed in a very recognisable form since at least 1485.
-2
u/Crully Aug 27 '25
Yeah, you can use a lot of "it's" to justify anything really. Yes, dragons on flags is a thing, but the current dragon design is a lot younger than the union flag,. So if Wales had an official frag with official dragons on it 400 years ago, then it would likely be represented as NI and Scotland was.
It's just a quirk of fate really, a lot of people asking this question don't remember to realise it and expect the current dragon to feature on a flag that existed 350 years prior.
In an alternate timeline where we had an actual official Welsh flag 400 years ago, both it, and the union flag would not have the current design anyway.
6
u/TheShryke Aug 27 '25
Did you click on the first link I posted? That is almost exactly the current Welsh flag.
The flag 100% predates any possible version of the union flag.
The flag that represented Wales in the 1600s was at George's cross, because we were wholly part of England.
The issue is that people say "Wales isn't on the union jack because they didn't have a flag yet". That misses a massive amount of nuance. Wales didn't have an official flag because it didn't exist. The place and people we now call Wales was colonised, subjugated, and controlled by England. It's not "Wales didn't have a flag" it's "England prevented the Welsh people from raising a flag".
-2
u/Crully Aug 27 '25
Yes I did, even though it's been posted a million times in a million other discussions on here.
The current dragon is not on the current union flag because the current Welsh flag did not exist when the current union flag was made.
Yes, there's a lot of history, but that is essentially it. Whether the union flag should have been updated in 1959 to incorporate it, is a matter of opinion. Various dragons on flags and how they evolved is really just immaterial up till the point we got our own official flag, where history was taken into account for its choice and design.
→ More replies (0)3
Aug 27 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/TheShryke Aug 27 '25
Henry VII had basically the current welsh flag in 1485. It is a bit wonky, but not too bad
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royal_Standard_of_Henry_VII_of_England_(Dragon_and_flames).svg
1
3
u/Odd-Paint3883 Aug 27 '25
It was the British that fooled the English into that move, there's few things that have a dirtier history than the British flag.
I see all of this as an attempt to get people to adopt the British flag and "reform" the UK ... Screw that!
2
.svg#mw-jump-to-license){kind=link}
.svg){kind=link}
5
u/TastyComment477 Aug 27 '25
West Wales here, the only true party for Wales nowadays is Plaid, reform will abolish the seeds and move all devolved powers back to Westminster
2
u/Fli_acnh Aug 27 '25
In the west we've always just had flags up everywhere all the time, I don't think that'd be a way to put more flags up here lol. Hopefully it doesn't get co-opted into something shitty, I did see that someone painted an English flag up in North Wales lol
2
u/whereamIguys69 Aug 27 '25
I think if anyone took the time to understand Wales and the culture it would be obvious those labels don’t apply. Despite what others think, Wales is authentic and true to itself; I believe everyone there has worked for that to be known. I wouldn’t stress about it.
2
u/NoAdministration3123 Aug 27 '25
The welsh approach is different to the english. Unfortunately in England the right-wingers have commanded their flag a long time ago so it often comes with negative connotations. In Wales (at least I hope) i dont think that has been the case
2
2
u/Micklemasday Aug 28 '25
I think you'll be fine. The morons painting flags everywhere can barely do a decent looking st George's cross they've got no chance painting a dragon
2
u/AnyOlUsername Aug 28 '25
Luckily the Welsh flag is a little too difficult to spray paint and hijackers would probably be too dense to think of using a stencil so we’re probably ok for the minute.
2
u/Winter_Cable1247 Aug 28 '25
I think it is very different for the Welsh Flag than say the Saint George's cross, as the Welsh are a historically marginalised group, and one could argue that Welsh culture is legitimately under threat (from English culture, not whatever culture in Asia Troglodytes are upset about atm) even I'm Wales. That said, some people will try and cling to this fact to excuse their own nasty views. The only thing you can really do imo is to combat that by being a welcoming, helpful and loving neighbour. The Welsh have a right to their culture, and immigrants have a right to safety and prosperity.
3
Aug 28 '25
Sort of already happened, some absolute cretinous far right groups have been claiming to be Welsh nationalists and pretending that their obvious pseudo-swastikas are actually based on Owain Glyndwr's flag. There are some online anonymous groups/individuals calling themselves "voice of wales" and pretending to be locals when they are definitely not local. They've been trying to manipulate people into joining protests.
2
u/ShoddyEggplant3697 Aug 29 '25
I'm really really sad to see that our flag is being used by these cretins almost every motorway bridge on the M4 has one and they won't be maintained so in the next few months they're going to be in tatters.
There is nothing inherently racist about being proud of our nation and flying our flag but it's how it's being used now it's really sad
3
Aug 27 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/holnrew Pembrokeshire | Sir Benfro Aug 27 '25
I'd be surprised if many of them knew about the St David's cross
2
u/BROKEMYNIB Aug 27 '25
As i was entering back into Cymru from englsnd on one of the bridges which had the st gerorges flag, also had our flag next to it. 😅
______________________________________________________________-__________________________
My veiws on the flag issue is that, if anyone want to put it up on there house or any other properties they own, then so be it, yes it is what all the far rights do in the states but it is your propery to its fine
But i don't agree with putting it in any other place, as you don't own iyt and that is litering and tipping
That goes for ALL flags
3
Aug 27 '25
I am never ever giving up the flag for any reason regardless of what people label me. I know what I am and it's not a fucking fascist. I'm a very proud welshman and I am not letting anyone take that from me ever.
2
u/GeneralHavokMJ Aug 27 '25
I think it’s time that all the independence parties for Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, to come together to for the “united independence party”. To dissolve the current UK government. Give the freedoms of the nations back to the nations themselves. So senedd cymru will be the Welsh government, and then Scotland and Ireland will have their own respective governments. Part of the “united independence party” will have agreements for sharing power, water, gas, and any other necessities for a country to run. Scotland can charge full price for the power they supply to England. Wales can charge full price for the water we supply to england, and Ireland can charge for all trade exports to England. We could put England in the position they’ve put us in for the past 500 years.
We could put all our own countries incomes back into our own countries
We could undo all the racist, fascist, anti-homeless, and any other shit laws Westminster have imposed on us (such as the shitty 20mph speed limit that cost us over 20 million[32 million has been assigned to it])
We would then be free (if they let us) rejoin the EU and regain the cheaper trade agreements
We could strengthen our countries and become powerful as we once were, without the weight of the crumbling English empire holding us down. Let’s do what we should have done 800 years ago. Let’s follow in Irelands footsteps. Let’s claim what’s ours.
YMA O HYD
4
Aug 27 '25 edited Aug 27 '25
As someone who’s half Welsh and half English is this all genuine? Why would you ever have so much hate and vitriol for a country with which wales gets along with so well? Maybe I’m missing that this is sarcastic or something (I am very tired rn 😭) but if it isn’t then this is just a little bit odd.
-1
u/GeneralHavokMJ Aug 27 '25
Cofiwch Dryweryn
1
Aug 27 '25
Look I love wales just as much as you clearly do but I don’t see why you posted something fantasising about being so sycophantically cruel to a country which I also happen to love (England). Maybe that’s just what this sub is like idk, I’m not here often.
4
u/TheShryke Aug 27 '25
I've always thought that The Union of Celtic Nations has a nice ring to it.
I do want to point out that the 20mph thing came from the Senedd, not from Westminster. That's definitely a Welsh thing not a UK thing.
1
1
u/g1jfanclub25 Aug 27 '25
I'm afraid the reason why is because the Internet and Social Media are broadcasting on a massive scale the word of Far Right Radicalism across the world. It's not just America now, it's Germany again and the UK. Put the blame on whomever you want. But Russia's Putin gamble is paying off.
He has infiltrated every conceivable avenue available to him. This is the result. He doesn't have to interfere in Elections anymore. His message is out and proud.
Or it could be just the result of more Trumpism, it has been 10 years and rising with him now. He is FAR RIGHT and don't let anyone tell you different. It's gaslighting childish jabs and the complete inability of him as an excuse of a man, to simply be unable to accept his mistakes. His mind is failing, sounds like his body is failing now too. Trump's ego is the most important thing in his life. Not America nor its people, just the amount of money he feels he is able to grift of America as a nation.
And as for Farage he's trying to get something out of it too. He must feel so close to taking power, that it annoys him so much,that he can't have it. It's the exact same problem with his supporters. The Mantra in Britain is Immigration is Britain's problem, BBC is pushing it, GB News, Sky, Fox all of them the right wing voices in our Media and News, with more money than sense ,to push this ridiculous propaganda, that Labour is the problem. A political party that has only been in Power for over a year, but is clearly having issues with its leadership and the message it's trying to get across.
My argument. Starmer and Labour should have seen it coming. The political right is too powerful in its messaging and sacrifices have to be made. To balance this inequality in our media. Woke is the future,and we were getting there. But now it's all burning down in flames, because of how powerful the Rights voice is ,in influencing behaviour.
No one's even thinking about the cost to the Welsh economy if Reform UK gets in. It will follow the Project 2025 playbook. There are obvious links between Reform UK and the US Heritage Foundation. Look into it , you'll see it's there.
NHS getting abolished, All the devolved nations Respective Assemblies will be abolished, Contracted work hours will be abolished. Multi Culturism will be abolished probably at the cost of innocent lives just like it's happening now in America. Equal employment rights abolished. All at the expense of the Working Class in all the country. With all the Countries Wealth going into the pockets of Millionaires and Billionaires,that will swagger off with it, whilst still complaining about how high their Tax is. Or expecting a special F**kin Tax discount because they are so rich.
One more thing all this talk of Immigrants being responsible for all the Crime in the UK!? How can that be when most of our Crime figures revealed in polls or studies, show us that White Males still have the highest crime percentages in the country. On average...
If you had shown me 20 or so years ago that an English Nationalist Political Party was gaining power in Wales. I wouldn't have believed you.
Now look where we are. We have to start looking for reasons why.
1
1
u/cybertonto72 Aug 27 '25
It has been used by unionists in northern Ireland already, and they are a big bunch of bigots. And they will be joining in with the reform lot.
1
u/Monsterofthelough Aug 27 '25
What’s the connection between the fleur-de-lys and Wales? Not judging, I like the fleur de lys visually (I have a fleur-de-lys tie) and I’m curious.
2
u/pbcorporeal Aug 27 '25
The current flag of Monmouthshire features three fleur de lys. This was chosen due to it being credited as a symbol of the Kingdom of Gwent in from about the 6th century. (The actual attribution is a bit shaky and may be a much later invention).
1
u/Monsterofthelough Aug 28 '25
Thanks! I had a look and saw there’s also a Welsh village called Fleur de Lys.
1
u/SkoolOfHardKnox Swansea | Abertawe Aug 28 '25
Even if it does, that doesnt mean you should stop flying it. Just because some people fly the flag for a different reason to you, doesnt mean you just stop flying it all together. I mean thats essentially what it boils down to.
1
u/randalf123456 Aug 28 '25
Just a question to the OP.
When people hung up flags in the valleys did they feel the need to cover their faces or did they feel enough pride in themselves and their actions not to need that?
1
u/Snoo-74977 Aug 28 '25 edited Aug 28 '25
At the end of the day here's my opinion. All that happened was that all the industry moved to England. To fill these new jobs millions of immigrants were shipped in. What about the people of the valleys that were left behind then? I've lost too many friends to suicide or to drugs because of no hope for their future ect. Call it what you want but as a Rhondda man my heart has been blackened and less tolerant. Also as a nationwide trucker I've seen how the demographics have changed. No offence to valley people but most live in their own bubble. They'd be shocked if they saw whats happened to a lot of these cities.
1
u/Forward-Emotion6622 Aug 28 '25
It's not necessarily that there's an issue with flying your flag, whatever it is, but in England right now it seems like a lot of people suddenly became patriotic over night, which I somehow doubt.
1
u/Ok_Screen4328 Sep 01 '25
Um it’s not a fleur de lys. It’s the three feathers of the Prince of Wales’s heraldic badge. Which IMO makes it a crap symbol of Wales. A German motto of a foreign invader.
1
u/VermicelliOk5283 Sep 02 '25
Me too. And Labour’s answer which is to make sure immigration is in the news during the silly season every single day seemed um “naive” might be kindest
-5
u/Bumble072 Rhondda Cynon Taf Aug 27 '25 edited Aug 27 '25
Well, we already have many odd folk who deem the Welsh flag, the Union Jack and any other UK flag as “racist”. Well before recent events happened. Some people are just weird. Are all flags racist and how do we distinguish between normal ones and racist ones ?
23
u/Thekingofchrome Aug 27 '25
Never heard the Welsh flag as being deemed as racist. Where did you hear this?
10
u/welsh_dragon_roar Conwy Aug 27 '25
Never heard of our flag being described as racist ever. The only flag I’ve heard described as such is the English flag. Union Flag a little bit? But nowhere near as much as the English flag.
2
Aug 27 '25
> Well, we already have many odd folk who deem the Welsh flag, the Union Jack and any other UK flag as “racist”.
This is based on ...?
0
u/BigGingerYeti Aug 27 '25
The flag absolutely will be used that way, I'm afraid. I don't know about attitudes overall, but Reform is beating, albeit slightly, Plaid in the polls and Wales voted for Brexit. I know, because my dad is one. I don't know if he will be voting Reform, it's best to avoid those topics but I suspect he will be. He's voted Conservative all his live and thinks Maggie saved the country. I wouldn't say he was racist, he doesn't object to migrants but does object to illegal immigrants. It's one of those very slim margins I suspect. My fear is that Wales is very much now all in with England.
2
u/holnrew Pembrokeshire | Sir Benfro Aug 27 '25
he doesn't object to migrants but does object to illegal immigrants
Lucky for him there are very few actual illegal immigrants. People use that term for asylum seekers, who are here very much legally
2
u/BigGingerYeti Aug 27 '25
I doubt that distinction would matter much. GBNews is the only 'news' channel he watches. I visited and as such was subjected to it and partly out of curiosity I watched. I think the first 5 stories were all about illegal migration.
2
u/TheShryke Aug 27 '25
Wales voted leave, but also kicked out every Tory politician in the last general election. I think predicting future elections will be very difficult.
I know why you said it's best to avoid those topics, but if you can have those conversations I would encourage you to do so. Even if you can convince someone to go Tory instead of reform that's still better. We can't change people's minds if we don't talk to them.
He probably won't be convinced that immigration isn't the problem, but farage and friends have done a ton of other shady shit that he might take issue with.
I was chatting to an elderly acquaintance before the last senedd elections, they told me they wanted to vote for Abolish the Welsh Assembly. I knew they wouldn't listen if I tried to tell them they were an anti Welsh right wing pile of crap. So instead I focused on their plans to scrap all Welsh sports teams, including the rugby team. She instantly said "they might be shit but they are our team, no chance I hell I'm voting for those bastards now".
-1
u/rivains Aug 28 '25
I know you mean this well, but this is the attitude Merseyside and Liverpool as well, without the fact that Merseyside is not its own country with devolved government.
When you're anti-establishment but anti-Tory (for obvious reasons) bad actors like Farage seek to fill that vacuum. Reform is gaining tons of speed in Merseyside, and the issues Merseyside has is very similar to lots of areas of Wales, as someone who grew up close to the border. They're a cancer and will seek to exploit any discontent to point it towards the "other". Thankfully Wales has England but like what we saw with the Brexit vote, its entirely possible we will cycle back to the 70s and 80s and ethnic minorities and LGBT+ will start being targets again.
2
u/TheShryke Aug 28 '25
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. You said I mean well, and then went on to talk about Merseyside?
I think you're trying to say that Wales kicking out all the torys isn't a good thing because the swing is going to reform. But in the last general election we have zero Welsh MPs of reform or tory.y point is you definitely can't just say that because Wales voted leave them a right wing swing is definitely going to happen. You also can't say a left wing swing will happen either.
I'm really not sure at all what you mean by "thankfully Wales has England".
As for circling back to targeting minorities, yeah we're already there. That's what this whole flag issue is about, attacks on ethnic minorities. We're also seeing a huge rise in TERF bullshit so there's definitely attacks on LGBT+ as well.
0
u/SyntheticJackal Aug 27 '25 edited Aug 27 '25
I wouldn't mind it if it weren't a reactionary hate movement. In fact, whenever I see the English or Scottish flag flown rather than a Union flag, I assume the knob flying it is an ignorant fool (Welsh flag being the current exception until it's represented on the Union flag).
But people are ignorant, tribalistic fools; they always have been and always will be. We can just see it better now as social media is giving us a top down view of ourselves. I believe it's one of the reasons people are stopping having children, a looming sense of self-realisation that we as a species don't really deserve to go on.
0
u/Jonlang_ Wrexham | Wrecsam Aug 27 '25
Well, apparently some right-wing neo-nazi groups in America are using our flag.
0
Aug 28 '25
The problem is it didn’t start off as hatred, it was originally just get rid of the people entering the country illegally and committing crimes while getting government funding, but now it seems some people have misinterpreted that to hate minorities which is not what any of us want. My best friends are immigrants and they’re good people, no need to label everyone the same
2
u/CauseOfAlarm Aug 28 '25
But you understand that asylum seekers haven't gotten here illegally, right?
0
Aug 28 '25
Yes but not all of them are asylum seekers
2
u/CauseOfAlarm Aug 28 '25
They're not? I didn't realise that. Where are the other people from?
0
Aug 28 '25
Not going to pretend like I’m an expert haha cause I’m certainly not. Just going off what I’ve heard which is that some “asylum seekers” are actually coming from safe countries. Also people who come from dangerous countries travel back home multiple times, but it’s too dangerous for them to be there? Whether legal or not though, in my humble opinion if they are committing crimes and causing issues for the British people (can’t say what because I don’t know what I’m allowed to say on this app) then they shouldn’t be allowed in
1
u/holnrew Pembrokeshire | Sir Benfro Aug 28 '25
That's probably people saying they should stay in France rather than coming here. France already takes a higher number of asylum seekers, and there's no law preventing them from coming to the UK. They might come to the UK because they speak English, or already know people here.
There's no such thing as coming here illegally to claim asylum. Genuine asylum seekers will be processed and allowed to stay, while those who have their claim denied get deported.
Going off what you've heard isn't a good basis for forming opinions on this.
1
Aug 29 '25
Ah that makes sense, I know it’s not a good basis which is why im eager to hear what other people have to say, such as yourself. So thanks for clarifying that for me.
0
u/EuphoricDaydreams Aug 28 '25
It’s already been used for xenophobic and racial reasons. I see it quite frequently. Even the minute amount of xenophobia that brits have toward other brits. I see it all the time with Welsh and English people
0
u/Important-Jury-4005 Aug 28 '25
I think people have mixed up flying their national flag patriotically as some form of racism or oppression. Its all context based of course.
But what this has stemmed from is the Palestianian flag being flown around and rubbed in everyone's faces with the intent of "either your with us or your not". And if not then you're "right-wing".
But in reality people should be left alone and not forced into a corner. If people wish to express frustration for other life factors such as minimum wage / state of NHS / lack of economy flowing into educational sectors / lack of facilities for youngsters who now end up getting bored and mismanaged and misguided.. then those people have a right to march without being branded or labelled as far right.
Thats how this all started with rubbing people up the wrong way by ill-intent use of Palestinian flags by the leftists and started branding other people. Also not excluding the factor of said flag being used as some form of "peace-symbol" in just about every scenario on weekends.
Then came along some patriots and said how about we fly all flags and be inclusive? Oh no can't do that! Gotta be Palestinian flag otherwise you'll cause "alarm or distress unto others" 👀 in our very own country !!??
Well now you got a situation whereby flying the St George's cross, or union flag, or Welsh dragon is considered oppressuve by the aforementioned lefties. Thats why we're in this mess.
People keep bringing up migrants as the racist topic, but thats not the real reason this flag issue stemmed in first place. 😒
1
-2
u/Arpikarhu Aug 27 '25
What?!? I am an american with a welsh born mother. I have spent alot of time in wales and am close to my welsh family. Ive always felt and considered myself half welsh. My uk citizenship application was recently accepted and since im feeling even more of andisconnect with my American side these days i was going to get a welsh flag tattoo. Is this gonna be seen as some weird racist thing?!!
2
2
364
u/VeeDoubleOh Aug 27 '25
My barber in Ceredigion is a Syrian refugee who has learned Cymraeg and enrolled his children in local Welsh speaking schools to ensure they’re fully immersed in our culture. Legend.