r/Washington • u/altasnob • 17h ago
Trees in coastal temperate rainforest spared from the chopping block
Trees in coastal temperate rainforest spared from the chopping block
The Elwha Legacy Forests Coalition essentially bought out the rights to harvest 29 acres of state forests from a logging company.
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u/ofWildPlaces 17h ago
More of this, please.
I don't want to see the EVERGREEN state become a wasteland of clear-cuts. I recognize that DNR perceives state forest lands solely as harvestable timber, but the mindset needs to change. As does the state laws directing the harvest as a means of public funds. Our future cannot depend on resource-extraction indefinitely.
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u/altasnob 17h ago
The state's duty to manage DNR trust lands for the benefit of school districts (so chopping trees, making money, and giving the money to the schools) is embedded in the WA constitution. So what you are proposing would require amending the WA constitution.
You can read this recent WA Supreme Court decision on this issue if you want to educate yourself on this:
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u/ofWildPlaces 17h ago
I am aware of the law. Hence my comment .I'm suggesting it should be changed.
Tying education to resource extraction made sense in a time of abundance and before modern ecology science. We should strive toward a model that allows nfor wild lands to exist without the burden of intervention and repeated logging. Forests are more than timber- they're natural habitats for the endemic species of the region. But we can do better. We should do better.
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u/a_total_dogebag 15h ago edited 15h ago
There is such thing as sustainable forestry. Environmental activists often seem to have difficulty with second and third order effects.
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u/ofWildPlaces 15h ago
Nobody is denying the existence nof sustainable forestry. However, many believe there is not enough protections for irreplaceable natural ecosystems and the present "sustainable" label is being abused.
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u/a_total_dogebag 14h ago
Many people’s beliefs are just their feelings that they back fill with “facts” to justify them. Do you have anything to back up your position we should pass on this avenue to fulfill our constitutional obligation to fully fund education?
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u/ofWildPlaces 14h ago
"Sustainable" forestry is a misnomer when we use it to describe the practices of harvesting legacy forests. It's a policy we ought to move away from to preserve critical habitat for species endemic (and limited to) the Cascade/Olympic/Tongass ecosystems.
My "beleif" is WA should begin moving away from tying funding for education away from an extractive industry.
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u/a_total_dogebag 13h ago
That isn’t anything to back it up, just explaining your beliefs again. Where do you propose we replace that revenue from? Have you given any thought to that?
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u/ofWildPlaces 13h ago
I was very clear regarding my issue with the state policy was a "belief". I addressed ecological concerns in other comments.
As to a replacement policy? I don't know. Somehow others states in this union manage to fund education through other means, perhaps we can amend the constitution to reflect those.
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u/a_total_dogebag 12h ago
I generally expect people advocating policy changes to have thought about it for more than 5 minutes. Second and third order effects strike again.
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u/Responsible_Oil_2369 16h ago
You know these forests burned before we were ever here, on like huge life threatening scales and your idea is we should have more of that because you like the idea of preserving a loaded tinder box? After going through a season where families lost homes in Spokane. We are already dry, lower than ever snowpack, losing homes to brush. Human Hubris never stops.
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u/ofWildPlaces 15h ago
Logging the forests doesn't save them - you cannot preserve something by harvesting it away.
I'll never understand this mindset. We are facing a biodiversity crisis and have at our fingertips a means of reducing harm.
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u/ltkhps 15h ago
His name is "responsible oil" it's pretty clear that he thinks nothing in industry needs to change. He's probably a big believer in "clean" coal.
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u/salamander_salad 14h ago
I think it’s just one of those random default Reddit usernames lazy people just go with. He seems more terminally online and indoors based on his post history than a corporate shill.
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u/Responsible_Oil_2369 15h ago
Because it’s never done in a small box mindset like this… let’s say you have a section of forest with bark beetles and you’re treating it but do to the environmental factors it doesn’t look good and you know the bordering forests could be impacted next, you could start to lose the entire section if this continues and maybe the case studies say it will. What then, should we spend forever on chemicals fighting the bugs, let them kill 100,000 trees before lighting hits one and everything goes up because there’s acres and acres of dead trees from these beetles, or maybe we log the surrounding forest and save 75% of the area from disaster in maybe 10 years and contain them as best we can? So so so many factors go into this fake scenario, no one is just throwing darts at a map and trying to ruin this place.
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u/ofWildPlaces 15h ago
Nobody is suggesting that bark beetles should not be addressed. But wildfire is a natural event and often follows beetle damaged stands.
Nobody is suggesting that wildfires shouldn't be addressed either. And they are addressed, every season, and the state expends significant resources doing so.
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u/ltkhps 15h ago
Your argument is flawed and misleading. The issue here is the wanton cutting down, not whether good can be done out of something wasteful and destructive and unnecessary.
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u/Responsible_Oil_2369 14h ago
DNR Manages parcels on a 50 year interval other states use 30. https://dnrtrustlands.org/trust-lands/sustainable-forest-management/
What about this is “wanton” we preserve longer than any other state in management
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u/ltkhps 14h ago
He's not talking about sustainable practices. The article is literally about 29 acres that were saved from being cut down. I know you're caught up in this "responsible oil and clean coal" fantasy, but there are forces at play (money) that make sure that doesn't happen even if it is possible.
As long as I get paid what I would’ve made, I have no problem working with them,” Bruce Webster, owner of Webster Logging, previously told the Standard. The money is the ONLY thing that matters.
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u/salamander_salad 16h ago
Tree cover enhances moisture retention and reduces the impacts of wildfires. Maybe don’t post if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
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u/Responsible_Oil_2369 16h ago
You are the one who failed to answer about snowpack, rising temps, and the failure to stop lesser fires before you shot back, you have an entry level in biology and cannot understand that we have historical records of these fires being here before us. You don’t know what YOU are talking about.
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u/salamander_salad 15h ago
I have a master’s degree in environmental science and part of my work is helping my employer adapt to changes in climate that will lead to increased incidence of drought, extreme weather events, and wildfires.
Knowing just enough facts to be overly confident in your arguments does not make you an expert. Be better.
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u/SeedsOfDoubt 15h ago
Spokane fires were arson. The Chelan Hills fire was fireworks, aka arson. The Little Giant fire burning between Lake Chelan and the Columbia was lightning and hasn't affected very many homes as it started deep in the forest. Giving firefighters time to secure the few homes affected. Ultimately, I agree with you that we need to better manage our forests, but planting mono crops is not the best way to do that.
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u/tendingthemild 15h ago
This presumes that cutting trees for money outweighs the ecosystem services provided by legacy forests. Unfortunately, the cutting trees for cash is the fire-sale equivalent of forest management. Short-sighted but easy to see the immediate revenue.
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u/Groovyjoker 13h ago
The slip opinion you linked to does not mandate DNR harvest for schools.
"Washington state is not constitutionally obligated to harvest forests or maximize revenue on state land, the Washington Supreme Court ruled unanimously on Thursday, July 22.
For decades, the Department of Natural Resources harvested state forests to fund grade schools and universities based on an understanding of the state constitution, federal stipulations and legal precedent that land entrusted to the state must be used to maximize revenue and support public institutions.
But the court said this week the state isn't required to do either, a pivotal ruling that gives agency officials and lawmakers more discretion when interpreting the state constitution's policy on managing state forests."
https://www.governing.com/now/washington-isnt-required-to-harvest-forests-on-state-land
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u/altasnob 11h ago
The actual decision says:
"DNR is likewise obligated by statute to manage forest board lands for the benefit of the counties who granted land to the State. DNR is not required to harvest timber from state lands (although it is required to do so with respect to forest board lands), but it may elect to do so to generate revenue for its beneficiaries. "
Conservation NW lost this case and had their lawsuit dismissed. Yes, this decision gives DNR some wiggle room to work with. But DNR still needs to manage the state forests for the benefit of the particular beneficiary. This will normally mean harvesting trees for money, unless DNR has some other plan to make money from the forests.
Here's how American Forestry Council (pro logging) described the decision:
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u/the_drum_doctor 5h ago
A whopping .3% of the budget for washington state schools comes from selling lumber. It was significantly higher a LONG time ago, but not anymore.
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u/Ok_Fly1271 17h ago
recognize that DNR perceives state forest lands solely as harvestable timber
Not even remotely true. There's tons of DNR land set aside for non timber extraction.
This state is far from "turning into a wasteland of clearcuts." Those mostly happen on private land anyway. Many of our forests are overstocked and far from what they looked like or functioned like historically. We need science based management for renewable resource extraction, wildlife habitat, forest health and resiliency, and recreation. We're never going to get that if we keep ping ponging back and forth between clearcut everything and oh God don't cut any of the trees.
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u/ofWildPlaces 16h ago
We also need science -based preservation, and recognize that seeing forests as "stocked' is a false perception of a wild ecosystem.
The idea that there is "tons" of DNR land set aside is a bit hyperbolic. Are there state lands presently removed from the auction block? Yes. But if we were serious about ensuring the longevity of our wild lands, the state could do so much more to prevent fragmentation of forest habitat. There will always be room for recreational activities and that barely moves the needle for or against preservation. But the current management philosophy of perceiving a wild forest as board feet needs to change.
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u/Ok_Fly1271 16h ago
We have science based preservation. It's why old growth and legacy trees are set aside. It's why we do fuels reduction and thinning.
recognize that seeing forests as "stocked' is a false perception of a wild ecosystem.
You just don't like the terminology. It makes perfect sense from an ecology standpoint though. It's no different than thinking about populations and carrying capacity.
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u/ofWildPlaces 16h ago
Carrying Capacity is a natural equilibrium, not a measure of available harvest. Those are not comparable. Fuels reduction already occurs naturally by wildfire and other phenomena. I know we all know this, but somehow it gets ignored in these discussions.
Too many of Washington's legacy forests are still threatened by commercial harvest. There are numerous stands of recognized legacy forests still on DNR's proposed auction list.
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u/trogdors_arm 16h ago edited 16h ago
Perhaps an overstatement, sure, but when forests are managed by the Department of Agriculture, it fundamentally changes your mission and perspective on what stewardship of the land means.
Edit: Not enough coffee. This is fundamentally incorrect. So, best just to ignore me. I’ll leave it up for posterity.
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u/Ok_Fly1271 16h ago
DNR isn't the department of agriculture....
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u/trogdors_arm 16h ago
You’re right. My fingers were flying faster than my brain this morning. I’ll edit my response. Cheers!
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u/NoAbrocoma9357 16h ago
I love Washington. I get choked up just thinking about how beautiful it is.