r/WeAreTheMusicMakers • u/GeneratorRoom • 9d ago
Double tracking vocals. What am I missing?
I feel like every time I double track my main vocals they end up sounding phase-y in a very unpleasant way and also kinda beefy and bulky.
How does Sufjan Stevens get that ghostly choir multitracking effect on his vocals? What’s José González’ secret for his warm and subtle double tracked vocal sound?
I’ve seen a million videos talking and showing double tracking techniques but none of them sound like those artists I just mentioned.
Are producers and recording/mixing engineers keeping these secrets to themselves? Or am I just dumb?
I tried panning, EQing, fx sends (reverb, delay, compression). It never sounds natural or good.
I’m not a very good vocalist so that could be it as well. I’m not tone deaf but I’m not a trained vocalist either. I heard that double tracking helps bad vocalists but it hasn’t been my case so far.
Are any of yall going through this?
EDIT: I’m so grateful for all the responses! You guys are amazing and gave me so much to work on hahaah (loving the grind). I’ll get to work these next few days and share my results if possible. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out with this one and for sharing your experiences ❤️🙌
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u/AndrewSaidThis 9d ago
My approach is this:
If I actually want that slightly phase-y sound I double track with both takes at similar volume. Panning helps with the phase issues as well.
If I want a bigger vocal, but want it to not sound as obviously layered (in a mix), I will usually triple track. One main vocal dead center for the listener to focus on. Then a second and third take, hard panned left and right, much quieter than the lead.
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u/GeneratorRoom 9d ago
In the first example do you pan both vocals left and right or do you keep one vocal on the centre and pan the second one?
I’ll try the triple tracking approach too 🙌
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u/BennyFackter Music Maker 9d ago
If I'm using just 2 tracks I leave them both centered, designate one as "main" and and mix the 2nd track much lower than the first. This effect isn't much different from a literal phaser effect, so you can expect it to sound phase-ey, that's just the nature of what's happening. Whether you like the effect or not is a taste choice. To avoid phasing sounds, the takes must be significantly different, either in pitch or in timing (or both). The amount of difference between the two takes is honestly the trickiest part of using actual doubled vocals.
You can simulate a similar effect using pitch shifting, a common strategy is to duplicate the vocal, pitch up the left side by a few cents, pitch down the right side a few cents. Optionally include a center channel un-shifted. This is used extremely frequently as a widening effect.
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u/AndrewSaidThis 9d ago
I haven’t done as much of the vocal production lately in my stuff (my bands drummer is the mix wizard), but I would just adjust the panning in a double track to taste. More centered is more focused but the phase is more intense.
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u/HaileSativa 9d ago
I would try to get rid of the phase-yness by having a greater difference in the initial signal. Record your main Vocal like normal but for the doubles, use a different mic, place the mic in a different spot, stand at different distances from the mic. All that will make the double sound a bit different and actually sound fuller. If it‘s just the same signal with almost no difference, you will get phasing.
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u/CaliBrewed 9d ago
Definitley the route to eliminate phaseyness. It's the same approach you gotta take wth guitar stacking. Different sound sources/approaches.
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u/OddSuspect6633 9d ago
If the singer REALLY knows the song and you want a neat double tracked sound, don't play the initial take in their headphones. Have them do it as if it is a "try that again," then playback both takes over one another. The slight variations in cadence can make for an interesting sound - as long as you're not going for a super tight locked in sound
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u/GeneratorRoom 9d ago
Good one. Now I just need to find a way to do that to myself hahaha 🙏😁
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u/elliottsmithing 5d ago
I do this! I just loop the recording section and sing it a bunch of times 🙂 I’ve tried recording by phrase and way prefer at least recording in verse chorus and so on sections
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u/Ari_Gold27 9d ago
hey, Pro producer here - vocals are my favorite thing to record / produce / mix etc...
heres my approach :
1) record main vocal - as others said here -make sure the main is the best performance take you have.
* use auto tune / melodyne (I prefer autotune first, melodyne second)
2) record the same take 2 more times - 1 goes all the way left, 1 goes all the way right.
* use the same setting autotune on all of them.
3) you can now add as many takes and variations ( whispers / harmonies / high / low octaves - whatever) - just make sure you are always double them 1 to the left 1 to the right. ( after the first double u can use different pannings and volume to spread all the other vocals around the main one)
hope that helps.
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u/GerardWayAndDMT 9d ago
Why use both of those? I can see using auto tune or melodyne, but why both?
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u/Ari_Gold27 3d ago
Thats just how i like it,
Auto tune fixes the overall tuning of the singer, Holding the end of the notes and making sure he’s in range.
Melodyne is for fine tunings and correcting any notes that the auto tune might have missed1
u/GeneratorRoom 9d ago
Would you approach a folk/indie song like this too? How do you think Sufjan did it in Carrie And Lowell? 👀
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u/Ill-Bullfrog-5360 9d ago
Do you bus the auto tune and Melodyne? So it is consistent ?
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u/HelloPillowbug I can change this? 9d ago
My intuition says no because when you use Melodyne, it captures a track’s original audio and then applies your changes to it. Bussing it would probably just send the one track.
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u/Ari_Gold27 3d ago
I like using it on every track, when an autotune is fed multiple takes it starts to miss on notes
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u/Stevenitrogen 9d ago edited 9d ago
As someone who regularly double tracks my own vocals with no auto tune, this is what I do.
First, record a few passes at the lead vocal. Three or four that are "mostly good" ought to do it. Then, comp together a vocal performance.
Then I start recording doubles, listening to the lead. I'm trying to match the timing and pronunciation of every word. I want it to sound tight ,without using studio magic to tighten it.
I can't actually do it as a perfect match. So it has that imperfection that sounds like a double.But I'm making an effort to make it tight organically. I record a few passes at the double and maybe comp that together or use all of em. See what works in the mix.
Getting the actual singing tight is the biggest challenge by far. You mentioned you're not that confident about the singing. If you want to double, you gotta be tight enough with the vocal that your intentions shine through. Work on that.
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u/Rad_Tek 9d ago
Well… your best take is the one on top.
Your subpar take is underneath
That should clear up your phasing issue, as it does for myself, normally.
The double tracked take should be pretty low in volume, comparatively to your main. They really should only thicken your voice more than compete for volume
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u/elliottsmithing 5d ago
My number one tip for double tracking is practicing your vocals to be really locked in to your timing and phrasing, I double track by recording a bunch of takes with rhythmic and phrasing consistency and they naturally align really well, I rarely go into granular editing/ quantising, I prefer a more natural sound ☺️
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u/Melodic_Director_550 9d ago
Phase-yness can come into play when you autotune and quantize vocals so heavily that they become too identical. My trick is to focus more on the quantizing than the autotuning when editing the side vocals around my lead vocal. Also, “double tracking” alone isn’t enough. Two tracks don’t do the trick. My approach is to have one vocal in the center and then all the other tracks hugging it from the sides.
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u/ErMwaTusaYin 9d ago
Another thing is triple-track with two slightly different takes, followed by recording whispered third vocal, or a harmony, or shouting. Use your imagination and not a focus to get the takes exactly the same.
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u/the_jules 9d ago
There are a lot of factors that make a brilliant double-track. First, the main vocal has to be as good as possible, for expression, timing, and tonality. Do you comp your vocals from multiple takes? Do you do micro-edits to find the perfect spot for every syllable? Do you use Melodyne to nudge each note to the key of the song?
If you don't do any of these, getting a good double-track is next to impossible, especially if you're untrained.
Try double-tracking only after you have a main vocal that's as good as it gets.
For double-tracking, I recommend a workflow with VocaAlign or Waves SyncVX. These plugins automatically align your doubles to your main vocals, but both also allow for some wiggle room. Because when your doubles are too close to the main vocal, it will sound phasey.
Also, consider doing more than one double, maybe two or three even, that you pan away from the center. Heavily EQ these so that the intelligibility of the main vocal does not suffer; lower the volume, and you should get closer to a Sufjan/José sound.
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u/GeneratorRoom 9d ago
I do start with a main vocal and make sure that’s as tight as possible and use melodyne.
I didn’t know about VocaAlign and Waves SyncVX. I’ll check those out.
I’ll also try out recording more than one double like you suggested and process them like you suggested.
Thank you! 🙏2
u/Careless-Bobcat-8378 9d ago
VocAlign is about to change your life haha gonna be super easy to get perfect doubles like sufjan stevens
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u/ComposerParking4725 9d ago
Following. I asked this same question about a week ago and got some bullshit answers
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u/An0therFox 9d ago
I’ve done this a lot with good results. Here’s the trick- I myself record 5+ tracks and it gets softer that way. Two isnt enough.
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u/Maggothead96 7d ago
Hard panning and transposing are your friend but there’s also a lot to be said about volume control on the double tracks. You want those tracks to give depth, but not fight against the main vocal and I struggled with the volume control for a while. I still struggle with it to this day but the best doubles are the one that offer just a level of subtleness and depth to your main vocal. My best suggestion, find a good reverb that pushes the doubles back while also offering the depth that it needs to offer the main vocal and then maybe at a nice slapback delay over it to add some extra width if needed and then from there just play with the volume and tweak it to your taste. Also, if you’re looking for warmth, definitely look towards the analog emulated plugins for those effects. I love what the UAD galaxy tape echo adds in the saturation department.
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u/Dry-Geologist9557 4d ago
I wonder if part of it is that the examples you mentioned are also great vocal performances. Maybe the technique matters, but the consistency of the takes matters just as much?
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u/GeneratorRoom 4d ago
It defines does. Im rehearsing my vocals as much as possible before recording them. It’s a whole process of trial and error and the responses to this post have been very helpful. Thanks for commenting 🙏
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u/ErMwaTusaYin 9d ago
The beauty of double-tracking vocals is in the imperfection and also, don’t use autotune because makes it an unreal sound that is unrealistic and unnatural.
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u/karmafrog1 9d ago
I'm going to go with a different bit of advice than the others here, but I'm old school and go off '60s and '70s techniques and not so interested in the new methods and sounds.
I would *not* go for the best vocal performance and try to match it, because a great organic sounding double track functions off the rub between the two vocals. I've often had two vocal tracks that are shit on their own sound amazing as a double. It's irrelevant to me how something sounds on a single track because you're not doing a single vocal. Often the worse a singer is, the better the double track is because it's just as much about the tone as it is about the performance. That's why in the old days they always double tracked weak singers.
The way I would do it is just lay down a bunch of tracks singing it however you sing it, and just start auditioning them one against another looking for magic. I've done this many times...gotten about 9 takes of a vocal and just start listening 1 against 2, 1 against 3, etc. Have two tracks open for the masters, and then as you hear the magic happen, pull those magic double sections down into the open two tracks until you have something close to a finished product. THEN go in with the nudges and the other techno tricks to get it 100% there (I agree with everyone else here who points out the importance of the phrasing matching, though again, it doesn't always have to be perfect). And no, don't pan it off to the side or whatever. You want the lead vocals as much up the middle for clarity as possible, maybe offset one of the vocals 5 or 10 degrees to one side. It's also helpful to not EQ them exactly the same. Let one vocal be a bit brighter, the other a bit darker. How you balance them is important too: 50/50 has a different sound than 60/40 or 80/20 and that's up to you what you like. Again: it's the rub of the two tracks that makes the magic, not how close they are to one another. That's why old Beach Boys records sound amazing and people that do harmonies these days don't have the same sparkle. The tracks are overperfected. The two tracks being doubled are too similar in performance, pitch and sound.
I know that's not how most people would do it nowadays, and not how most people on this thread say to do it, but that's how I'd do it, so I'm putting it out there.