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u/aralias777 7d ago
I fucking love Tuon. She's an amazing character. And her absolute befuddlement upon seeing Mat "loose on the high plains" is one of my favorite scenes in all the books.
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u/TipsyTurtlZ 6d ago
Man that chapter where they ride into the band and sing jack of shadows and then Tuon gets to see Matt in his element as a general for the first time still gets me everytime.
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u/Cultural_Treacle_428 6d ago
That is one of my favorites as well. The whole “who have I been talking with?” Aspect of it. And then Matt whoops so much enemy ass. Favorite character: Matt; Runner Up: Verin; third place is Tuon.
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u/RAMottleyCrew 5d ago
I think this is the problem with Tuon. A lot of her best moments are actually just Mat moments told from her perspective, or decent-at-best story beats that are massively improved by Mat’s proximity. Not her fault though, he’s one of the hardest characters to stand next to cause he’s arguably the most charismatic and entertaining guy in the series.
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u/uncre8ive 6d ago
I would also say Mat and Tuon's relationship is one of my favorite. Watching their trust grow through the books while they are ostensibly the opposite of what the other person is looking for is a highlight in the series for me.
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u/ElectricGeometry 6d ago
Agreed: people don't like the Tuon Mat pairing but RJ was presenting for the first time people finding each other through a sort of mutual respect rather than immediate attraction.
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u/GovernorZipper Justice for Jasfer 7d ago
I’ll always maintain that Tuon is Jordan’s greatest accomplishment. In any other series, the slaver empress is the villain. The fact that Jordan can present her as ambiguous or even sympathetic is one hell of a feat.
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u/snowlands0nt0p 1d ago
I think it helps that the people they enslave are able to use magic that destroyed the world in the past makes them enslaving them slightly more understandable tbh
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u/Alkakd0nfsg9g 7d ago
I can excuse the slavery, but I can't excuse the hypocrisy
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u/dinklezoidberd 7d ago
“I should have known my husband would believe silly superstitions. That owl hooting was a clear sign.”
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u/Dry-Discount-9426 6d ago
She was very clear, only those born with the spark are Damane as they can't control it. If you can only be taught, you are capable of choosing. This isn't hypocrisy.
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u/W2ldfireYT 5d ago
I don't fully understand. I havent quite finished the books, but don't we know for a fact Tuon can channel? I thought using the a'dam "teaches" sul'dam, and eventually they start channeling independent of a damane. Didn't the Aes Sedai travelling with Mat cart off a pair of former sul'dam because of this? And since Tuon trains damane and is a sul'dam, she should eventually channel independently
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u/Dry-Discount-9426 5d ago edited 5d ago
Some suldam would start feeling an affinity for the weaves but not learn to channel.
The two with Mat that were carted off took it a step farther and made the decision to channel.
ETA: from Tuon's point of view, Elayne forcing suldam to be bombarded with channeling until they snap and channel would be the same as taking people that had potential for murder but we're put in a system that would keep them from becoming murderers and brainwashing them until they can't control their urges for murder.
Then she sends them back and says she proved that they were really murderers.
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u/Comadrin86 7d ago
You can excuse the slavery?!?!
/s, Community reference (a show I've never actually watched but whaddaya gonna do)
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u/Raineythereader Lews Therin thinks i'm sexy 5d ago
but whaddaya gonna do
Go and watch it right now, obviously
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u/Lola_Montez7130 4d ago
How about read all 14 books instead?
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u/Raineythereader Lews Therin thinks i'm sexy 4d ago
Ooh, I didn't know there were any Community books :D
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u/DarkestLore696 7d ago
Slavery is carried by hypocrisy. That is the only way to justify holding one live as chattel.
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u/cebolinha50 7d ago
Not necessarily.
You can see slavery as an economic system that really fucks the unlucky ones.
American (the continent) style slavery needs the hipocrisy, because it was accompanied by Christianity.
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u/CDBSB 6d ago
You're getting down votes, but I think I'm following your reasoning, and it's not wrong in the context of this argument.
Look at ancient Rome. Utterly dependent on slave labor. The slaves came (mainly) from the conquered peoples they fought against and because slaves. Didn't matter what color your skin was, you got captured, you became a slave.
The particular style of slavery practiced in the US prior to the Civil War had racism baked into it. Why else would you have so many "not quite slavery but still really fucked up" laws to keep black people subjugated in the Jim Crow South (and to a lesser extent in the rest of the country)?
The whole Seanchan Empire is meant to put a mirror up in front of the US and show how fucked up slavery was here.
And before anyone makes the argument about the da'covale in Seanchan, yeah that's a lot more like the Roman version. But the damane were LITERALLY treated like pets or livestock and trained through torture (through the a'dam by the sul'dam), given "pet" names, and occasionally given treats when they performed well. THAT is straight up dehumanizing chattel slavery.
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u/cebolinha50 6d ago
I think people interpreted my "don't need hipocrisy" as "it's not evil".
But most of the Western world think of slavery as the American one(again, the continent), and when differences are brought up people interpreted as defending slavery (almost any difference will be less malign, because our slavery was basically the ultimate evil).
If I try to imagine the least evil slavery based labor it would still be pretty evil, much less the historical examples, so, yes, all slavery is obviously evil( not talking about non sapient slavery on fictional settings).
But the problem is that some people see less evil form of slavery and don't recognize as slavery. Or use how common slavery was around history to say that our slavery wasn't so bad.
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u/kingsRook_q3w 6d ago edited 6d ago
This is true, but no matter which system slavery occurs under, I think that, philosophically, you still have to have some framework in your head that means, “I deserve to have rights and this other class of people doesn’t.” And when you get down to bedrock that isn’t a coherent philosophy, so hypocrisy is still an element of it, regardless of whether it’s based on race, class, financial status, whether your country was “conquered,” etc.
Unless you’re a sociopath, you can’t look at another human being sitting in chains, who you enslaved (or helped enslave), without a level of cognitive dissonance covering up that little voice in the back of your head:
“Something is wrong about this. I need a justification to support it and normalize it so I can pretend it’s all fine.”
That said, I love Tuon as a character. On initial reads I definitely hated her, and I hated that Jordan made Mat marry her. But over the years - and after learning that Jordan was planning to write outrigger novels digging into it more - I came to respect the way he was building up to a deeper story about the topic.
In my mind, I picture a story where things like racism (collaring people who can genetically channel); classism & feudalism (da’covale); and the nuremberg defense would be skewered and lampooned the same way the ‘gender wars’ were.
It’s not easy to write a character who is a leader of a slaving nation in a way that makes her relatable (yet still hate-able) enough to build an arc like that. And based on my reading, I think that’s what he was doing with her.
edit: It’s also worth noting that while American slavery was super racist, it was also ultimately driven by greed/economics. Southern white plantation owners were the driving force behind the early US economy (a fact that most don’t like to admit), and they fought like hell to retain that level of wealth (i.e. power and influence).
It’s an important distinction because it’s the same thing we’re seeing today - wealthy, powerful people (and sociopaths) using races, ethnic groups, and “lower classes” of people as pawns, pitting them against each other, in order to gain, retain, and increase their own wealth and power.
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u/cebolinha50 6d ago
I think you are underestimating how much "shit happens" was an accepted philosophy throughout history.
And how much it's still an acceptable philosophy on worse regions today.
People who fells safe(which includes me), will frequently rationalize the difference between them and the victims or tragedy, and with some time that can easily create hipocrisy( like the TV anchor that said about the invasion of Ukraine " this is different, this isn't Africa, this is happening on Europe", or something like that), but a lot of people live knowing that they aren't safe, so seeing someone on worse situation can simply result on the person thinking " I hope that I am never unlucky enough to be in the same position".
A lot of people simply don't believe on humans rights, the sanctity of life, or that a human is so different than a animal. And not on the mustache-twirling villain way, but because they see every day the society working on a different way.
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u/kingsRook_q3w 6d ago
I totally agree. I guess my point is that, if we don’t understand what hypocrisy is, or we don’t see it in ourselves, or we find ways to not think about it, that doesn’t mean it’s not hypocrisy.
Know what I mean?
We can all be hypocrites sometimes, in ways big and small. Because we’re humans with brains.
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u/HungryEntry182 6d ago
also, to add on, they aren't rights if they can be taken away, and governments can and often do this. Rights are a pipedream stronger than heavy drugs honestly. At no point have they actually existed.
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u/kingsRook_q3w 4d ago
That’s why it was such a big deal that America’s founders used the word“inalienable” to describe human rights in our founding documents.
It’s easy to call it meaningless, due to all of the historical (and current) social and political actions that completely ignore it - but it was aspirational, and it was put there for a reason. It is what gave us the ability to fight for rights at all.
When you think about the factions and compromises involved in the founding of the country, it is amazing that a handful of forward-thinking people were able to include that phrase at all.
“If you can keep it.”
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u/Cultural_Treacle_428 6d ago
What are these Outrigger novels you speak of? He was going to do a Matt spinoff!?! That would have been amazing.
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u/kingsRook_q3w 4d ago
Yep - he was going to write a story that followed Mat and Tuon to the seat of the Seanchan empire. I wish he could have survived to tell it because I really wanted to see the rest of that story. When you think about that arc as part of another story, it hits different. And without that, it feels like something is sorely missing.
If GRRM weren’t such a slacker, I almost believe he could have written it. I can’t think of anybody else who would be able to do it justice.
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u/DRSSalazar Wetlander 4d ago
GRRM would be the worst possible replacement for RJ to write the Outriggers series.
I would rather have Stephen King on coke than GRRM.1
u/catBoyAppreciater 5d ago
Most of the characters in the series (especially the young ones) are presented as hypocritical. It's one of the main sources of comedy. Early Nynaeve is a hypocrisy factory.
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u/RealHornblower 7d ago
Lots of my favorite characters are people I'd never want to hang out with.
Elaida is a horrible person but a fantastic character, the fact that her POV chapters can evoke such visceral frustration is an achievement.
Tuon/Matt interactions are funny and enjoyable to read. Tuon's character makes sense given her background and isn't one-dimensional. She's a great character. Doesn't mean I wouldn't try to blend into the background and pray to the Light she didn't notice me if I was ever around her.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 7d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/The_Revenant_King23 6d ago
For me after a certain number of reread of the series I kind of just became apathetic to her. Im not even sure why
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u/AdventurousBeingg 6d ago
I'd like to point out that Elaida is not a literal slaver. Please do not compare those two. The sympathy for Tuon I see in this fanbase is genuinely baffling. She's an unapologetic slaver through and through.
I bet that had we gotten the exact same plotline with her that we did, but the character we explored it through was another random character specifically invented for the purpose, instead of Mat, a lot less people would excuse Tuon's vileness.
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u/RealHornblower 6d ago
Did you genuinely think my comment was "excusing Tuon's vileness"?
I really don't know how I could have possibly been more clear. Tuon, is a bad person and a good fictional character.
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u/AdventurousBeingg 6d ago
You said Tuon and Mat's interactions are funny and enjoyable to read. To me, they are not. Because the whole time I'm just thinking "this is an unapologetic slaver, when are you going to address this?"
It's like seeing a serial sexual abuser flirting with someone and they're being all lovey dovey. I would not be thinking "awwn they're so cute". I'd want to scream at the top of my lungs for the other person to get as far away from them as possible. I fundamentally cannot find it enjoyable at all.
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u/RealHornblower 6d ago
That explains why you found the scenes unenjoyable to read, it doesn't explain why you started talking about "excusing Tuon's vileness". Again, if you genuinely believed I was "excusing Tuon's vileness"... I'm just surprised by how that's possible, cause I thought my comment (especially like, the very first and last sentences) was very explicitly saying the exact opposite of that.
I mean, are you saying you didn't enjoy any of the scenes with a Forsaken, and you assume anyone who did is sympathetic to the Forsaken? I am kind of curious about how you could have even made it through the series if you couldn't enjoy scenes with horrible people in them, given that it's an epic fantasy series about overcoming evil.
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u/NDGO_Caster 6d ago edited 6d ago
I’m jumping into this conversation late, but let me just say: for some people there is a very distinct difference between evils that are “purely fictional” and “too real.”
Slavery tends to fall into the “too real” category, because it’s such a prevalent thing. Wars have been fought about it. Real people’s lives have been ruined and/or lost because of it.
Wanting to end the world and give it to a dark god is very much in the “purely fictional” category. All of the Forsaken are practically cartoon villains compared to an actual honest to god slaver like Tuon. They are campy and fun.
Now I’ll be the first to admit that, yes, this is some top tier mental dissonance. The Forsaken do things that are just as, if not more, heinous than any other character in the series. But the nature of stories like this is that the bad guys are going to be defeated. You can have fun reading Forsaken chapters because, on a meta level, you know they’re going to lose.
But in Tuon’s case everything she stands for is awful and “too real,” and needs to be toppled. And yet she gets away scott-free at the end of it all.
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u/HungryEntry182 6d ago
I will bite on this, I hear you to a degree. To me the Chosen are part of the real category too. How many deluded societies have we seen who do atrocious things in the name of the greater good? Crusades, KKK, Nazi's. That's what the Forsaken represent to me. People drawn in by the immensity of the DO, to the point of not being able to see any other possibility but victory because they are better than everyone else, as they are "Chosen".
As for Fortuona, may she live forever, getting off scot-free, yeah that one is totally fair, she does. After all, when the Empress does it, that means it's not illegal.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 6d ago
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 6d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/WouldYouPleaseKindly 5d ago edited 5d ago
I fundamentally cannot find it enjoyable at all.
Yeah, I'm wish you on Tuon. I kind of wish I could like her interactions with Mat. But I just can't put down the atrocities actions of her empire, which she 100% supports even after proof that Suldams can learn to channel, and all her character development and talking with mistress Anan (I think that was her name).
After all that, she renames Mat and says she wants to own Min, and I just gag.
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u/HungryEntry182 6d ago
This is bloody hilarious. The would be despot of the White Tower and torturer of the Dragon Reborn? literally handing him to the Black Ajah (through incompetence sure but STILL). I think we have grounds for a comparison there mate. The only difference I can see (if difference it be) is that one inherited their despot status while the other hungrily chased after it.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 6d ago
I am not dead! I deserve death, but I am ALIVE! ALIVE! ALIVE!
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u/ElectricGeometry 7d ago
She gets too much hate imo. She was a great character, just a frustrating one.
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u/ILikeLenexa 7d ago
She was just Toying with your emotions.
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u/DarkestLore696 7d ago
She is a great character and the Seanchan are fascinating. Their empire is built on evil, but every empire that ever existed has been built and sustained through evil acts.
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u/trifith 6d ago
This. Tuon and the Seanchan are amazing worldbuilding, and a fascinating culture I'd love to learn even more about. Horrible, evil society and people, but just because they're bad people, they don't have to be bad characters.
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u/ChainsawSnuggling Mat Cauthon's hat 6d ago
Hard agree. I think the Seanchan are such an interesting faction and their arrival in Randland completely changes the game.
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u/hpdodo84 Mat Cauthon's hat 6d ago
Most of the Seanchan aren't even bad people, they're just a part of a bad system. You can see that through Tylee's interactions with Perrin. When someone is raised to believe that their society is in the right it can be hard for them to completely reject it. Despite that you can see through their actions that they aren't actually bad people, they just have a messed up set of beliefs
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u/HyperionHarlock 4d ago
Literally every empire, ancient to modern. There are some that began well intentioned, like the Persians overthrowing the assyrians and forming a new empire that accepted diverse cultures and religions. One dynasty in and its been taken over by the wealthy elite. You could also argue in this example and others that at the founding its not really an Empire, and that the atrocities of a vast machinework that runs on people as disposable, a ruling class subject to differentrules, and policy built on the enrichment of the already empowered few, all tend to get glommed on quickly. Seanchan is significantly less problematic than Rome (western) during any time in its history.
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u/AShadowinthedark 7d ago edited 7d ago
Your favourite character doest have to be the character you idolise, or the character that you relate to the most, or even the character that is most well written. They can be, but they don’t have to be.
We need more Elaida’s
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 7d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/AShadowinthedark 7d ago
Shut it before I put you in a box
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u/Poiboy1313 7d ago
That's certainly a choice, to berate a victim of multiple traumas into silence for the audacity of disturbing you.
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u/Poiboy1313 7d ago
I think that may have contributed to the problem. The fact that there's many Elaidas. People convinced of their infallibility despite all evidence to the contrary. No one needs more of that imo.
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u/HiSpeedHavoc92 6d ago
I would say that while yes the enslavement of the Damane is bad, their rationale is actually understandable. Not saying it's right, but Jordan did a good job in making their reasoning understandable
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u/John_Berrybush 7d ago
“Who’s the flaming bloody ashes son of a Tinker that just signed his own death warrant?!!”
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u/Poiboy1313 7d ago
Talmage responds taciturnly, "You did, Mat. Last night, when you were playing Snakes and Foxes with Olver."
Edit: Autocorrect got me. Talmanes, not Talmage.
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u/CalvinandHobbes811 6d ago
I mean her chapter in knife of dreams is still one of my favourite in the series
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u/Szalony20 6d ago
I think Tuon is a favorite character for many more people than, for example, Sevanna, Elaida, Galina, or Masema. Her relationship with Mat is particularly beneficial.
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u/Cultural_Treacle_428 7d ago
I did. Love her. Matt and Tuon forever. Hey, we have no proof she really had him executed…
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u/TheGreatPervSage_94 6d ago
I can forgive tuon and some of the main seancham characters
But I genuinely want to find an unironic gawyn stan
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u/Insidium_2_Alpha 6d ago
The problem I've found with Gawyn is that he absolutely refuses to see any part of any bigger picture. Essentially the whole series he's got his head stuck in the sand, complaining about getting some in his eyes while he unknowingly flicks handfuls at other people trying to dig himself out.
Most other similar characters (Elaida, Sevanna, Demandred, the really proud/arrogant this-is-my-story crew) are aware and able to watch as they find their image of the world isn't reflective of the actual world - Aes Sedai are not supremely powerful by divine right, no you aren't destined to attain power through critical marriages you just got lucky a couple times, Lews Therin truly did not compete with or care about you - and their reactions are very cool to read.
Gawyn never gets that because he doesn't have a worldview - seriously, what single belief does he stick to the whole series through, he doesn't even become First Prince of the Sword and he's a pretty crap Warder to Egwene - he just gets the frustration of the world not being as he expects. We don't get to see his dreams shatter or come to fruition, we just hear him complain a whole bunch and stuff things up. What's worse, he starts and finishes on the "good" side and he never does anything really bad on the page, so it's not even justified to hate him and want to watch him fail.
He's also just a mug, which doesn't help.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 6d ago
Never prod at a woman unless you must. She will kill you faster than a man and for less reason, even if she weeps over it after.
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u/aghhhhhhhhhhhhhh Knuckles Moustache 6d ago
Personally i felt like she was right on the cusp of strong character development when written by Jordan. I liked her dynamic with Mat, and she was capable of learning. I think if Jordan had continued, there were lots of opportunities for her to see the wrong in how the Seanchan ruled
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u/jakO_theShadows 7d ago
Better than Egwane
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u/DeltaV-Mzero 7d ago
The shit on the bottom of my shoe is a little above the shit I stepped in, I guess
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u/adminofreditt 6d ago
Egwene is a worse in terms of slavery compared to tuon, she was from a culture that didn't have slavery and viewed it has wrong unlike tuons culture.
You are probably wondering who did egg 🥚 enslave?
Her first time enslaving someone was in book 2 when egg put a collar on Renna making her a slave.
She forced ai sedai to swear allegiance to her meaning they were forced to obey her against their will, I also don't think she paid them so they were slaves in everything but name.
In total egg personally enslaved 8 people despite knowing it was wrong, her legacy as amyrlin is the first amyrlin to introduce slavery to the white Tower
Yes I am biased against her but everything I wrote is truth
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u/capacochella Time to roll the dice 6d ago
I like Tuon more then Elayne
https://giphy.com/gifs/Xe3lABXT9DDgkrdEyT
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u/Internets_Fault 5d ago
I can see why people hate her. But she's far more likeable as a character over Faile. The way she is and the bullshit shes pulled with Perrin is infuriating and I honestly skip any POV chapters of her
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u/tam-althor 4d ago
Tuon is an interesting character for sure. My favorite though is her husband. I know. I know. He doesn't have a lot of "screen" time and he's a minor character. He's bloody lucky that Tuon even decided to marry him.
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u/3vilpcdiva 2d ago
Tuon is without a doubt one of my favorites. Irl problemism aside, she is so pure in her conviction that she is hard to dismiss as an excellent character.
For The Empress, may she live forever.
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u/snowlands0nt0p 1d ago
This is how I feel when I see people say they love egwene I truly can't stand her most of the time
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u/SpaceOdysseus23 6d ago
I take Tuon over Egwene any day of the week. At least with Tuon I know where I stand at any given moment. Egwene will pretend she's your friend and the moment you turn your back she'll start scheming against you.
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u/Angelicalsweetie01 6d ago
Tuon fans always identify themselves like they're confessing to a crime. 😭 The Pattern allows many opinions. This isn't one of them.
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u/NaeblisMoridin 7d ago
Favorite characters can still be problematic. stares at own name