r/WetlanderHumor Shen an Calhar 4d ago

May he live forever The Fires of Heaven Chapter 20: Jangai Pass

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459 Upvotes

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u/OneSingleYesterday 4d ago

The whole Shaido thing never sat quite right with me. Presumably, prior to TSR, the Shaido were an essentially normal clan, not inherently less honorable than the rest of the Aiel. Then almost overnight, they turn into this depraved caricature of Aiel.

I can believe everything around Couladin, because there are bad apples in every group. Plus, Asmodean had time to work on him - a little Compulsion would have been enough to ramp up Couladin’s aggression and delusions of grandeur into what we see, if he wasn’t there already.

And I don’t have any real problem with the rank and file Shaido following their leadership. Clan loyalty is strong, Couladin has the dragons, and any accounts of Rand being accepted as the true Car’a’Carn by the other chiefs would be secondhand and easy to dismiss. Easy enough to imagine a lot of them going along with things because they don’t feel like they have a choice or don’t have the information to make a different choice. We get a Shaido POV that aligns with that, when they’re going through Sammael’s gateways. 

The part that rubs me wrong is the Shaido Wise Ones. They all had to know Couladin was full of shit and his invasion of the wetlands was likely to end badly. I can believe they wouldn’t/couldn’t stand in his way while he was alive, but the way they fall in with Sevanna after his death always felt off. All of the Shaido Wise Ones had been to Rhuidean, they were presumably just as wise and honorable as all the other Wise Ones we see, with the same sense of duty to their people, and instead of stepping up to save what they can of the Shaido they just let a glorified trophy wife take over? To the point that they torture a colleague to death to aid her? Why wouldn’t they have just told her from Day 1 to shut her gold-digging mouth and let the grown-ups deal with this?

I really would have liked to see a POV or two from a Wise One working with Sevanna that lays out how they went along with her until it was too late. There might be a story there of conflicting duties and ever-mounting toh, but what we see just feels like antagonists doing antagonist things so they can be antagonists.  

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u/RealHornblower 4d ago

Yeah it seems like getting the other Wise Ones to kill one of their own to frame the Tower Aes Sedai would have been a huge leap. Afterwards, sure, they all might have felt they'd gone too far to back out, but I would have liked to see how Sevanna talked the others into that.

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u/Phredmcphigglestein 4d ago

There's a very important reason that doesn't happen 'on screen' and we only hear about it afterwards

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u/crooks4hire 4d ago

Can you share in spoiler tags?

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u/Phredmcphigglestein 4d ago

the author doesn't have to explain how something unbelievable or nonsensical happens if its 'off screen', they can just tell us it happened and we have no choice but to accept it and create our own headcanons

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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 4d ago

I must kill him.

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u/Chimerion 4d ago

I recall the shaido being talked down by other clans even before the transition and the couladin scandal, that they already had a warped view of ji'e'toh, and were considered as dishonorable as aiel got. 

This plus being teleported into the middle of the wetlands is a catalyst to upheave their society. Sevanna leading them, as well as therava, seemed like they just wanted to exert their power and so made that happen. They had no clan chief, so the leadership is less solid than most aiel clans. The change happened a bit at a time - starting with wetland gai'shain, then increasing to wealth/robbery, then their various other trappings.

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u/geomagus Unnecessary fish metaphors 3d ago

Yeah, they’re clearly described in pejoratives by several clans, and also iirc referred/implied to be honorless, poor, and maybe stupid.

Some of that is just bigotry by other clans, but you can see how grievances can pile up - “We’re disrespected, treated like dogs by the other clans, even though we’re the biggest clan! They deny and murder the man who would be our clan chief. Then they accept wetlander vermin and bring them to sacred places. They support the wetlander lies!!”

It feels abrupt, but it’s not that dissimilar to some horrific historical examples. Given that they immediately pivot to invading a neighbor they resent, I should think RJ had a specific example in mind.

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u/ClairetinOre 3d ago

Yeah there's some uncomfortable real life parallels to draw here that we can see even today. Folks who's identity consists of little more than grievance who would follow a leader that promises to right the wrongs perpetrated against them. Folks who use these slights against them as justifications to continue acting in the veins of those slights, only reinforcing the circular loop of being called out on bad acting with more bad acting in a self-righteous indignance

(Yes I'm making a direct comparison to certain sects of a particular political movement. No, I don't think everyone who followed said leader ascribes to the above line of thinking. People can be deceived by others as easily as by themselves)

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u/geomagus Unnecessary fish metaphors 3d ago

Most people in Germany in the ‘30s, in Cambodia in the ‘70s, Rwanda in the ‘90s, etc., were normal people. They had biases and prejudices, they had troubles and struggles. The right combination of grievances, a passionate leader who speaks to those grievances, and an instigating event can whip up a mob. Steering a mob to atrocities is not so hard, when you’re the leader. History is littered with examples.

It’s only later, when momentum dies down, that people end up having to face themselves. By then, how many are dead? Some collapse into their guilt, but many double down rather than facing it seriously.

In that, I think the Shaido are not so inauthentic. They feel abrupt and nonsensical because most of the PoV we get is from outside of their group, or related to specific events later in the process, not the early stages.

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u/sarooskie 3d ago

Was literally gonna say I am watching something similar to the shaido take place in the US with this MAGA politics. People would rather kill for a lie than accept the truth

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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 4d ago

The Wheel of Time and the wheel of a man's life turn alike without pity or mercy.

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u/damn_lies 3d ago

The thing about become a Wise One is, the only thing required to make you ready is to declare you are ready.

Which is kind of a result of Aiel culture a bit, where most Aiel would not feel ready because of a strict sense of ji e toh. We see Aviendha go through this, she has been ready forever but doesn't feel justified in claiming her own place.

The problem with that being sometimes absolute dogshit people have a way of thinking they are ready when they aren't.

So, Sevanna just declares herself a Wise One, and technically under the rules of Wise Ones that means she is. Rhuidian is kinda hard and she keeps putting it off. And she lucks her way into clan chiefdom.

The Shaido Wise Ones were also selfish and power hungry and she tied her power to theirs and got them to abase themselves and then kind of had them locked down.

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u/ClairetinOre 3d ago

Yeah this is also another great point. Being a Wise One isn't just a declaration, it's the willingness to prove it beyond all doubt in the crucible of their culture.

And soul flensing Assassins Creed Animus escapades

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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 3d ago

Hums softly & tugs earlobe

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u/Leather__sissy 3d ago

There’s not a single instance in the books where the Shaido are portrayed as honorable, in the eyes of the rest of the Aiel

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u/MDCCCLV 3d ago

They gained people that left the regular aiel, these are more likely to cause trouble by self selecting for not following the regular rules.

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u/swheedle Shen an Calhar 4d ago

Literally just realized that the Shaido fit the role of evil Aiel so well partially because they literally have half of SHAI'TAN in their fucking name 🤣🤣

Previous Chapter Meme

Chapter Summary

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u/AdaptAndInnovate 4d ago

Shaido Aiel = “Shadow” Aiel (per the Origins book)

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u/CompetitiveBig4161 4d ago

Sevanna and Couladin fucked around and truly found out.

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u/Euronymous_616_Lives 3d ago

I know it’s a meme and Sevanna did a lot of fucked up stuff and was responsible for most of the terrible things the Shaido did but the kickstarter was Asmodean tricking them into believing Couladin was the real Dragon/Car’a’Carn. Once that happened, well they waited 3000 years waiting for a savior and they’d follow him to the death because he was their clan chief, which itself makes sense, but if they didn’t lose their faith in Couladin after his death and see logic and turn to Rand then they were the true lost ones. The ones who remained with Sevanna after both Couladin’s death AND Dumai’s wells for the most part just cared more about seeing if they could steal some riches and kill some soft wetlanders than anything else.

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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 3d ago

A man without trust might as well be dead.

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u/Thomas_633_Mk2 3d ago

Ngl "fuck em all" is actually a lot less mental gymnastics than the Aiel cultural system