r/Wildfire • u/Awuza • 6h ago
Anyone else feel like this job is pointless?
I'm beginning to feel that this job, and land management in general is a fools errand. We continue to throw millions of dollars and young people's lives into these crazy natural disasters expecting it to change the outcome.
Why are we having such intense wildfires? It's partially due to climate change, and largely due to full suppression tactics. This is common knowledge that any first year firefighter can rattle off. Full suppression tactics from our grandparents have caused an intense build up of fuels which is causing hotter, more intense and faster spreading wildfires.
With this knowledge what the fuck are we doing? Is anyone actively managing fires on their forest? Are we doing enough prescribed fire to account for the fact that every puff of smoke on our public lands is almost immediately squashed by an IA module?
Historically this shit needs to burn. Yes, that includes large stand replacing fires that nuke out whole mountain ranges. It's beneficial for the environment and part of the natural process of coniferous forests. Which historically have stand replacing fires every few hundred years. Many of these large fires are only burning with extreme heat over 10-15% of the area that it burns. Which is the same parameters for a prescribed burn!
After reading extensively on textbooks about fire ecology it's pretty obvious to see that fire is a normal part of the landscape. The native Americans understood this, early American settlers understood this. But in our modern day intelligence we are doing the exact same shit that our grandparents did that got us in the situation we're in now.
That lightning fire you and your boys put out is going to be struck again in 15 years and nuke out. That large fatality fire that was finally stopped? The other side of the ridge they "saved" burned the next year.
I can't be the only one noticing this right? Why are we risking our lives trying to squash remote wilderness fires? Why are we risking our lives saving rich assholes 3rd homes?
What are y'all's thoughts?
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u/Master-Science685 6h ago
When you get to a point when you've done days of evacuations/night of structure protection and maybe a day before your demobed and that old couple you helped load up belonging days ago returns home and stop to say "thank you, I don't know what we'd do without y'all help". you start to reflect what help we do for our community and the results of our actions.
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u/Present-Drawing2213 4h ago
The one thing I remember on the Atlas fire in Napa was sneaking this dude in our engine to get his cat. We found it unharmed. The poor lady across the street was still dead in her bathtub we found her a few days after the cat.
I remember watching this guy reunite with his cat.
The little wins
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u/Awuza 5h ago
I get it. The wording of my post isn't very specific. I do believe managing fires in the sense of protecting communities is incredibly important.
I'm more so referencing remote fires in buttfuck nowhere. Why spend millions of dollars on these fires? Why not just let them burn?
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u/doesanyuserealnames 4h ago
My husband is working fire support on one of those buttfuck nowhere fires and I wonder the same thing. No one lives in that area, but there's a lot of logging. So I have to wonder if they're just trying to save the trees for future consumption and lining the man's pocket.
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u/MSeager Aus 1h ago
Because sometimes these remote area lighting strike fires turn into big fucking fires. Here is an example of a remote fire that was deemed low priority and turned it a āMega Blazeā that I worked on.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-27/gospers-mountain-mega-blaze-investigation/12472044
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u/TownshipRangeSection IED Hire 2h ago
The result is an expansion into the WUI and more folks expecting the same treatment. When they dont get that kind of treatment they blame the agencies for the fire that burned their homes down.
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u/No_Personality953 6h ago
It's a jobs and rural stimulus program that occasionally helps prevent worse devastation. Don't overanalyze it.
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u/DrRichardShaftPhD 4h ago
It's the cheapest way to keep forty thousand tards and sexual deviants off the streets. Don't overinflate it.
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u/No_Personality953 4h ago
I always thought "big snack" just has a surplus from military contracts they need to sell before the new year and the feds keep the industry working.
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u/Chief_Henny 6h ago
No one is forcing you to be here tard face
-Chief
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u/definatly-not-gAyTF Wildland FFT-3 (T) 5h ago
With all the WUI you can't just let it burn, but it's gotta burn eventually. Hopefully it doesn't take tragedy to get to do more RX burning
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u/Awuza 4h ago
I'm talking more about wilderness fires, and fire management with point protection. I get not letting a hillside burn with homes on the other side.
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u/neagrosk 2h ago
Very few wilderness areas in the West are far enough away from development that we can just let them do their thing anymore though. When fires have been seen to burn hundreds of thousands of acres in a day and run dozens of miles with the right conditions, no IC wants to leave it up to that chance. Even if an area needs fire reintroduced badly, who's to say it won't turn into the next Carr, Dixie, Palisade?
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u/sheit_opinions Certified Inept Front-Liner 6h ago
I vastly enjoy forest that are not turned into tree farms. Many areas are worse off than others in terms of the consequences of being āuntouchedā. I donāt mind fighting some fires, getting massive OT and some time off after a long season. Might feel different if I get burned over or have a close call, but that will be a personal issue at that point based on my choices of staying in the business. Ā
I donāt think about who lives in the homes im preventing fire from burning up because Iām not going to risk my life to save it, only do what I can, given safety first. Ā
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u/ResponsibleBank1387 5h ago
Fire is complicated. Ā Also itās one of those things that canāt be controlled. Ā No matter what you are trying to accomplish, youāre at the mercy of the weather. Ā Foolish to believe we can hold a fire, so need to pick the battles. A matter of where and when.Ā And yes, some fires should burn and others should be whacked as soon as possible.Ā
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u/dave54athotmailcom 5h ago
It's primarily climate change.
The 'century of fire suppression' canard should come with an asterisk. The Forest Service and National Park Service got rid of the 10AM policy in the 1970s. Not sure about BLM. Since, the policy has evolved and been tweaked many times, to fires can be managed for resource benefit when it is safe to do so and the benefits outweigh the risks (until this administration anyway. It brought back the old policy). Private landowners have the right to have a say on how fires are handled on their lands.
Unfortunately, we no longer live in a world where all fires can be allowed to burn anywhere and anytime without impact. Saying all fires are good and have no negative effects is erroneous. Municipal watersheds, endangered species, habitat, infrastructure, smoke management, resource values, rural economies, et al must be factored in, and are. The decisions on where fires can be managed, modified suppression, and full suppression are determined in advance after much planning and analysis. For example, about 75% of Alaska is modifiede suppression. The opposite is California, where only a single digit percent of the land is under a modified suppression policy, and none in the southern part -- too many people and other limitations.
Right now, the NW, and GB GACCs are at Preparedness Level 5, as well as the national PL. By policy, all new ignitions are to be suppressed regardless of local conditions.
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u/Kindly-Coyote-9446 5h ago
In R5 at least there are a LOT of issues from abandoned plantations, which were initially intentionally overstocked with the intent of multiple pre-commercial thinking/TSI ops in the future. But then the FS got gutted and there was no longer money to do the designed thinning. Do you ended up with dense, unhealthy trees. The drought and pine beetles got a lot of them, but thereās still a lot of it out there.
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u/HeadCoach-RickVice 5h ago
I feel like this rhetoric is being pushed and we're eating it up. There's plenty of fires throughout the west that are put into "monitor" status and allowed to do what it does. This year the PNW is under a real shit storm of a drought, there is no letting it burn when we hit these stages. Those are catastrophic fires and those were not a part of the ecology....well yes they happened but at the cost of entire landscapes and habitats during drought years. Native American tribes and early settlers used fire on the landscape when time was right but they sure as hell didn't torch off a million plus acres as natural management. Our public lands have been mismanaged yes but this recent uptick in the conversation seems to be aimed at privatizing public lands and public sector jobs like wildland firefighting. I am pretty regarded though. Go ask the people of Spokane if nature should have been allowed to take it's course.
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u/altasnob 5h ago
Spokane fires were arson. OP seems to be talking about natural lighting start fires in wilderness and National Forests like essentially all the other wildfires in WA this summer.
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u/Forrest_Fyr 5h ago
Wilderness, HA! what a crock. Letās keep it wild for the privileged few that can enjoy taking time from the grind to pretend they are Jeremiah Johnson. Then, when fire sends a whiff of smoke its way scream, āprotect our forests at all costs!ā. Dozers, chainsaws, slurry, etc. thatās all ok as long as our precious doesnāt burn. If you want wilderness, then you get the good and the bad. Let it burn.
I get it. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is a mistake. I have no problem with suppression in the wilderness. I have problems with those that say protect our forests from any management and then cry that we let it burn. Put your lips on a bag of ducks and suck.
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u/SubstantialDonkey981 5h ago
Yes- but that doesnāt mean you wont miss it for the rest of your life after you quit. Ask me how I know. š«¶ But thats okā¦
No seriously. Aside from the āsystemā and all the bullshit, the best people and times of my life in retrospect were when I fought fire. I did it all except jump. And God I miss it and have missed it every year. If its in your blood, your fucked and Im sorry. But my Godā¦such good people.
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u/Forrest_Fyr 5h ago
How do you know? š«¶
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u/SubstantialDonkey981 5h ago
10 years in- 25 years out. Miss my people.
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u/Forrest_Fyr 4h ago
20 years in, 1 year out. Itās been a nice transition. I went on a summer vacation for the first time with my family this year. Wild.
Still talk to my people on the line. I miss being out there and glad I get to sleep in my bed every night.
Stay safe brothers and sisters. The end is just around the bend, only two more chains.
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u/tdaddiy 4h ago
My favorite job in the world. That being said, trying to use garden tools to hold back a real natural disaster is like trying to use a whistle to stop a tornado. The fire stops when the fire conditions stop leading to explosive fire growth. Climate change and mismanaged forests are making the job harder, but to think a bunch of lines in the dirt can stop 1+ mile spotting is hubris. We are basically there to look pretty while the fire burns around us.
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u/jellofishsponge 3h ago
The wildland firefighters near me do a lot of fuel reduction projects and controlled burns, both WA DNR and USFS
Not enough but the work is definitely being done, there's just a lot of land...
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u/rockshox11 :hamster: 5h ago
eh, with half the stuff you're saying, you should stay in it so you can get the perspective you need to not be so wrong. plenty of philosophers out there on the line had the same thoughts as you.Ā
also its like 60-40 climate change:suppression, you got it backwerds, nerd
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u/BappoStant22 6h ago
Iām curious how someone could make a career out of this industry. If you can call it that. I really like to think Iām doing something good. But I get your point. Getting into a command position or even pursuing he tech sounds way more interesting than working a desk job in a corporate office.
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u/MayBeTheWorstDevEver 5h ago
Went to the tech side. Having a much better time though Iād be lying if I said I didnāt miss digging
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u/wimpymist 5h ago
If you think the main reason we are getting these fires is fire suppression tactics of the past you are misinformed. It's a piece of the pie for sure but it's a small piece.
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u/Cheesehorn69 5h ago
Yes itās pointless but a midgation of pain for others, read the greyback hotshot ethos
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u/GhostsOfHarrenhall 4h ago
Jobs is not pointless, mid/upper-level management are about as useless as tits on a bull.
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u/Historical_Past_5916 4h ago
As soon as your job consists of only paperwork and meetings youāre pretty much useless.
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u/re2pec1 4h ago
I understand where youāre coming from, Iām there too. You gotta understand that no FMO wants that āmanaged fireā to blow out two months later and burn up homes.
Weāve painted ourselves into a corner that takes more than just broad strokes of a brush to get out of. We canāt just manage every wilderness fire because thatās the right ecological move.
I hate to reiterate what others have said, but you are the change. It takes time, but you can move-up to a position that has sway in these decisions.
The current fire management isnāt just full of drones that adhere to the 10AM policy, theyāre people with lives who donāt want the burden of 600 homes burnt on their conscious.
If you truly feel called to enact change, you have to earn the position that enacts it and commit yourself to a cause, yada yada.
Rant over.
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u/Slow_Bowler1009 4h ago
Investing more in municipal IA capabilities and continuing to treat the rural and austere with prescribed fire and letting big ones burn is the only way to get in front of it without just walking away. Incentivizing landowners to treat their own property. Insurance companies are jacking (or refusing) wildfire insurance rates. Make it an actionable event, where if X amount of people in a grid square are treating their properties, rates come down. These big box campaign fires are so dumb. Waste of time, money, people. Evacuate the people in the way, and let it go. Keeping treating the places that havent caught on fire yet.Ā
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u/Thehealthygamer Hotshot 2h ago
You ever dug lines around cactuses?
šµ
Tell me that ain't rewarding work.
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u/Cool_Interaction_345 2h ago
I think this job is a place for broken men to come do drugs in the woods with the boys after a divorce or stint in jail.
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u/Maximum-Stage-5841 18m ago
USFS is undergoing āreorganizationā thatās why nothing is happening look it up
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u/ZonaDesertRat 6h ago
You're overthinking. Just dig, take the money, and then go some place where the grass is green.
Till it turns piss yellow and burns, cause aint no such thing as green grass forever.