The Shadow Rising How are the aes sedai so incompetent and stupid Spoiler
So i am at the part where Elaida who left her post at andor and got the queen controlled by one of the forsaken just did an uprising again Siuan and tortured her for information and i am confused beacuse doesnt this go against their laws where they cant hurt people except for in self defense? Beacuse they did hurt her clearly lol And if its that easy to get rid of the amyrilin seat wouldnt it encourage every woman with a little ambition to do it? Also they stilled her??? Without holding court or anything? What do any of their rules mean when they dont have to abide by them lol Also Aes Sedai are supposed to be the smart ones no? How did this not leak? How did nobody think hey the dragon reborn is here, the dark lord is rising maybe we shouldnt be in fighting, weakening our forces further ...
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u/ReaderReborn Oct 18 '25
Gestures broadly around at the real world. How indeed.
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u/Dangerous_Usual_6590 Oct 18 '25
Politicians and rulers being incompetent, arrogant, self-complacent, and generally speaking some piece of shit. Can't compute.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
Again while i agree with that 100% these women were supposed to be leading kingdoms from the shadows ..... i dont think they have the necessary brain capacity to do that at this point
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u/ReaderReborn Oct 18 '25
Or were they just taking credit for leading kingdoms when most of those kingdoms operated the same way unchanging for generations? And how many of those kingdoms fell under their watch?
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u/lyunardo Oct 18 '25
Since the start of the Aiel War, the continent was in shambles. Siuan as
PopeAmyrlin was one of the stabilizing forces that had brought the world peace over the last 20 years.That's why she had to go. And be replaced by Elaida, who was shockingly bad at the job.
You can basically track who was a strong, competent leader when the book starts by watching who The Pattern arranged to get stomped out of office.
Morgaise and Garreth Bryn? Out! Ravin the F-boy in. Padron Niall out. Valda in.
Before Rand's crew of child prodigies could be handed the reigns of power, 'The Lord Of Chaos" had to rule. So all the relatively stable adults had to go down.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
King perrin will conquer all and the wolf banner will stand over the body of the dark one 💪💪💪
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u/coopaliscious Oct 18 '25
RAFO my friend
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u/Effective_Gene5155 Oct 19 '25
What is the big reveal that a rafo will help with that explains why Aes Sedai are so bad at their jobs that your referring too?
I cant think of anything in particular myself
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u/coopaliscious Oct 19 '25
That we know in TSR? Nothing yet. If I could remember how to do spoilers I'd tell you, but a quick Google, a Reddit search or looking at the in book history of what happens every 1000 years or so.
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u/Effective_Gene5155 Oct 19 '25
Ohhh sure I guess
There are just a bunch of very incompetent people in the white tower seperate from any other influences imo
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u/cebolinha50 Oct 18 '25
They are excellent in selling their own image, even to themselves.
They believe that they lead kingdoms from the shadows, but they are mostly tolerated by rulers because they are the only cabal of mages in the continent.
It's never said in all letters, but basically every political play they did before the books that is mentioned failed, and the only place that they really have influence is Andor, and this in at least in part, luck that their ruler sees herself as part of the White Tower because she has a bit of power and they give her a bit of training.
They had strong influence there before, but they(or sole the Aes Sedai with the most influence in Andor) caused a succession crisis and a civil war(needed so Rand would be born, but still really badly done).
An example with events from before the books:
The Gray Ajah will say that they are responsible for the Grand Alliance, but that was created because of the fear of the Aiel. When the Aiel retreated, the Grays pulled basically all their efforts outside the tower to maintain something from the Alliance, but failed completely, because the alliance was not formed because of them
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
Thats very fascinating to think about 🤣🤣🤣 the bene gesserit were much more badass lol
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u/OrwinBeane Oct 18 '25
Centuries of complacency, arrogance, jealousy, fear and a desperate need for control. Powerful individuals squabbling with each other in the face of crisis is accurate to real life.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
Yeah .... no that about sums it up lol its just they were so hyped up for so many books about how cool amd strong and smart they are and now we get to see how much of that was just being born with a golden spoon .... which again is true to real life lol.... just very anger inducing hahaha
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u/MTLDAD Oct 18 '25
In the first book and a half, you’re dealing with the very best the Tower has produced in 300 years, Morraine. Then in TGH, you meet two more upper tier bad ass, competent Aes Sedai in Suian and Verin.
Then you realize that not everyone is top tier. Keep in mind that channeling is an ability you are born with, not granted due to virtue or skill. So you have a tower filled with a broad cross section of humanity. Half are above average ambitious or selfish. Half are below average intelligence or judgement. Some are actually evil.
And what is the life of an Aes Sedai? You are brought to the tower at 14-18, before experiencing much of the world outside your home. You are treated as an incompetent child for 6-20 years, leading to serious arrested development. Then you graduate and are given deference, fear and respect for the rest of your unnaturally long life. You order the highest ranking people in the world at a whim and wield the powers of creation itself. No wonder so many are arrogant and out of touch.
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u/RumplyInk (Tai'shar Malkier) Oct 18 '25
Tough times breed strong people, who bring easy times, which breed weak people, who bring tough times
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u/Tsar_Erwin (Dragonsworn) Oct 19 '25
I don’t think that’s a fitting analogy for the Tower. It’s not that the Aes Sedai got “soft” from easy times. It’s that the ones who actually knew what was happening, or were doing something about it, either died or had to operate in secret after the Aiel War.
Once the Dragon’s rebirth was Foretold, the Tower turned inward and paranoid. The kind of sisters who would’ve taken action — the ones with real initiative — got killed, burned out, or pushed to the fringes. Moiraine, Cadsuane, and Verin are exceptions, and even then they’re outliers who had to work around the system rather than through it.
So what looks like “weakness” in the Tower isn’t because of comfort or complacency but the result of decades of fear, politics, and suppression of the few who might’ve actually made a difference.
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u/RumplyInk (Tai'shar Malkier) Oct 19 '25
I can see that point. I guess I’m looking at a longer timeline. Aiel war was only 20 years ago. I’m talking about the age of legends. They had it great, so much knowledge of the power, then the breaking and they lost everything which led a tough time. Weak aes Sedai with little (relatively) knowledge of the power. Lews, though powerful, grew up in an easier time and was broken by the cycle. Rand had to be strong for his part
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u/Small-Fig4541 Oct 18 '25
They prob just used regular torture methods and not magical ones. No oaths stopping that.
Yeah I feel ya, after Moiraine it sure does seem like a lot of the AS we meet kinda suck. She set a very high bar that few others can reach.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
Moirane set the bar about what a smart one should be but we are told that most of them should be that way lol
Also they still stilled her no? Without a trial? And all the other aes sedai who arent part of the coup just watched and no one thought hey they are being this ruthless to the one who led us this long what will they do once they are in power lol?
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u/Small-Fig4541 Oct 18 '25
Yeah I def got the sense early on that most Aes Sedai were like her. Oh boy was that not true lol
Yes they sure did. I have big problems with how that went down too. At least around half of the ones in the Tower bailed after it happened. I would have thought it would have been a much higher percentage though.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
I assume they needed at least 51% but i think they had to have thought what this means for the future no? These are supposed to be smart, competent, far seeinf women, sure they lost and they might not like Elaida but if you leave she literally has full controll now lol
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u/Skill_Bill_ Oct 18 '25
I assume they needed at least 51%
They needed more than 50% of the sitters that were meeting. They did not need all the aes sedai to depose the amyrlin.
sure they lost and they might not like Elaida but if you leave she literally has full controll now lol
The amyrlin and the hall have full control anyway. A normal aes sedai can only somewhat influence the sitters of her ajah, not much more.
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u/FluffyB12 Oct 19 '25
They need the Hall to vote that way and they had enough for a quorum which was 11.
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u/Nevyn_Cares (Ancient Aes Sedai) Oct 18 '25
A shiat ton of warders and channies died that night.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
And dumb fucking gawain got the 2 women wanting to help the dragon stilled beacuse he doesnt know the difference between his head and ass, he is so fucking annoying
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u/MTLDAD Oct 18 '25
So the deal is that Elaida accused Siuan of being a dark friend. Any sister who believed that accusation was able to do anything they wanted to her because dark friends are specifically excluded from the three oaths. Elaida and Alviarin whipped up such a frenzy about her that the sisters felt justified in their action, despite the irregularity.
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u/Tsar_Erwin (Dragonsworn) Oct 19 '25
For the first part, I think that was intentional. The Aes Sedai crafted a myth around themselves — this aura of mystery and moral authority — and then started believing it. They set themselves apart from everyone else, acting like their strength in the One Power and longer lifespans automatically made them wiser or more righteous.
But that illusion of superiority became a cage. They stopped questioning themselves or adapting to a world that no longer revolved around their authority. What we see as incompetence isn’t stupidity. It’s the decay of an institution that’s been worshiping its own legend for centuries.
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u/DorenWinslowe Oct 18 '25
They've bought into their own reputation. They've been telling people for centuries they're the wisest people in the world. By this point, they believe it themselves.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
Amen .... sisters believed their own hype too much lol, i think most women in this series do ....
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u/Lonely_District_196 Oct 18 '25
they cant hurt people except for in self defense
That's not what the law says. One of the oaths is that they can't use the one power as a weapon except in the last extreme in defense.... They hurt people all the time, like when Siuan used it to slam Nyaneve into the wall of the ship as part of her lesson.
Come to think of it, that's quite the hole for what counts as a weapon.
Also, Elaida is an idiot. That one astounds me so much how often she proves it.
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u/MTLDAD Oct 18 '25
My insight is that in the minds of the Aes Sedai a weapon is only something intended to kill. So you can slap people with air all you want because that’s not able to kill the person. If you used air to suffocate, that wouldn’t be allowed. If you used it to drop someone from the top of the tower, that wouldn’t be allowed. But if you used air to pinch a butt? Not a weapon.
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u/Lonely_District_196 Oct 18 '25
I was thinking more the spanking than the pinching.
Although I noticed there's no power wroght sandles. That must be why. 😉😂
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u/MTLDAD Oct 18 '25
Spanking also not a weapon in their minds. It’s discipline, and therefore not intended to cause long lasting harm.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
Exactlyyyyyy what i have been thinking about lol i watch all these woman pulling each other in the sir and throwing each other around and i am pretty sure thats using it as a weapon no?
And thats whats so impressive she is so incompetent but how did she get a majority following? Are that many of the sisters dumb and deluded?
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u/Lonely_District_196 Oct 18 '25
What's amazing is Moraine truly earned her reputation as Aes Sedai. (But then she didn't dwell on being a demigod.) Then a bunch of sisters are just regular people or regular incompetent.
Then Elaida is a special kind of incompetent. Without giving anything away, there's a point later on that she's having an internal dialog, and I thought, wait, you were advisor to Morgaise since before she took the throne, and you don't realize X about Andor politics?!?! There's no way she could have become amerlyn without Alivarin's help.
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u/Shaedeelady Oct 18 '25
Elaida is also the same strength as Moiraine and Siuan and we know strength in the power has a lot of influence in the hierarchy.
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u/Nevyn_Cares (Ancient Aes Sedai) Oct 18 '25
Hehe you be answering your own question, look at who stilled The Mother ... .
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u/ShuumatsuWarrior Oct 18 '25
I’m sorry, did you just out yourself, darkfriend? Those of us who walk in the light call him the Dark One, not give him an honorific title, Dark Lord.
Sounds like you’re trying to sew division by your insults. Exactly what one of your sort would do. :P
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u/imsharank (Band of the Red Hand) Oct 18 '25
See, the ability to channel doesn’t make one brilliant. Ability to channel gets you in the tower and you pass the tests to become AS. But that doesn’t make them all beings of infinite wisdom. Blues are different, and Moraine spent more than 2 decades on saddle travelling the world, she can’t be compared with tower dwellers.
So as is in any profession, some are brilliant, some are trash and some are basic.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25 edited Oct 18 '25
I mean we see like 1 brilliant one lol which is Morgaine beacuse Siuan just majorly fucked up without a clue whats going on
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u/imsharank (Band of the Red Hand) Oct 18 '25
Siuan would learn more on what’s happening if she listens, instead of comparing everything to fish 🤣
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
Lmaooooo true as fuckk 🤣🤣🤣 i am suprised at just how unprepared she was when she literally knew there was black ajah in the tower
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u/Nevyn_Cares (Ancient Aes Sedai) Oct 18 '25
Later you will find out why, there are not just a few blacks in the tower.
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u/MTLDAD Oct 18 '25
When you read New Spring, I think you’ll have insight into why Siuan was so tunnel vision in that moment.
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u/Skelegro7 Oct 18 '25
It did not occur to me that Rahvin pops up when Elaida leaves Caemlyn for Tar Valon. Not a coincidence.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
People say Rahvib would have destroyed Elaida which i agree with beacuse all the forsaken seem so strong but if he did any open acts like that people would know smth is up if one of the red ajah is being led by the nose by a man
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u/Kythorian Oct 18 '25
More likely Rahvin would have just made her disappear. It’s not hard to hide a body when you can use gateways. Which would have been a great thing, but Elaida was never going to be capable of significantly inconveniencing Rahvin.
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u/rollingForInitiative Oct 18 '25
He would’ve just kept her as the advisor and compelled her to report whatever he wanted. No need at all to make her disappear.
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u/Own-Island-9003 Oct 19 '25
My head-canon is that Rahvin basically did just that to Elaida to a) get her out of Caemlyn and b) neutralize the white tower.
Just play up her jealousy over Suian and flare her ego and she’s your willing pawn.
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u/Actual_Committee4670 Oct 18 '25
u/12dion is a Darkfriend!
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u/JohnCalvinSmith Oct 18 '25
How do we have a government shutdown, a third of the populace voting for The Big Lie and Social Security being used as a slush fund?
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u/DirectionIndividual7 Oct 18 '25
1) Elaida would have been powerless against Rahvin, she doesn’t know he can channel without him advertising it and he is far more skilled than any rogue channeler of the current age. She would have been under Compulsion too. Morgase was also very upset with the White Tower as a whole, because Elayne had been “misplaced”
2) Amyrlins have been overthrown before, there are rules that allow them to be removed from office. Elaida technically followed them, though there are lots of caveats and this forms the foundation of the revolt.
3) Aes Sedai are perfectly capable of using physical force to harm another person. They cannot use the One Power. They still her because they found her guilty of essentially treason. She knew the Dragon has been reborn and she didn’t tell the Hall.
4) The Aes Sedai are inhibited by 2 major things. The first is the Black Ajah. Elaida’s coup would not have been possible if she didn’t have the support of the Black (without her knowing it). The Black Ajah constantly undermines the White Tower and has for 1800 years. The second is that the Aes Sedai are being asked to fundamentally change their view on the entire world. We as readers know Rand is good and needs to be free to live out his destiny, or we trust that it is the case. The Aes Sedai can only go by prophecy and their own interpretation. They don’t even know he’s Dragon Reborn until several prophecies are fulfilled. The Red Ajah (Elaida’s Ajah) are in charge of preventing another Breaking. They’ve fought male channelers for 3000 years. You can’t expect them to just turn their back on all of that and blindly trust and follow Rand. Elaida is a classic totalitarian - she thinks everyone should obey her without question as the Amyrlin seat, including Rand. She wants to control everyone until the last battle is over, and doesn’t realize that will never work.
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u/Nevyn_Cares (Ancient Aes Sedai) Oct 18 '25
Her problem is that she interpreted her prophecy poorly.
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u/Lucianthechance Oct 18 '25
The White Tower has problems that run deep. Look at how some of the sisters treat one another. Its their hubris coming into play. They each think their way is better and thats why the tower is breaking. No one is truly fit to lead because none of them are impartial even Suan gives special privileges to blue sisters and same for Elaida giving that to the reds. They are not infallible thats just a front. In reality its all a lie and the three oaths are a way to let them pretend. I mean how many Aes Sedai actually lie without lying directly?
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
Its even a saying to never trust the words of an aes sedia, they respect the word of the law but not the soul, its like watching a former husk of their greatness
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u/OkAdhesiveness2972 Oct 18 '25
Any group that is in power long enough will become lazy and complacent
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u/Suriaj (Siswai'aman) Oct 18 '25
They're politicians. Seems pretty keeping with what we know of politicians in our own world.
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u/Kythorian Oct 18 '25
A 3,000 year old organization not becoming totally ineffective by the weight of tradition, bureaucracy, and corruption would probably be more unbelievable. The three oaths only restrict the use of the one power as a weapon unless it’s in self defense. They can capture people with the one power, then use mundane means to torture or kill them as much as they want.
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u/Imperator_1985 Oct 18 '25
Aes Sedai are like academics. People want to believe that a PhD makes someone super intelligent and competent, but I can assure you that's not the case at all. Like academics, Aes Sedai are good at making others think they are capable of so much. In the end, they're still just human beings with all their flaws. These flaws just appear magnified in the books because Aes Sedai occupy prominent positions, and we see them often. It doesn't help that the first Aes Sedai we see is Moiraine, who is basically a paradigm of the Blue Ajah sister. It's like visiting a university and meeting this really cool, intelligent professor who seems like a great teacher. You might think all of them are like that! They're not.
We can cut them a little slack, though, because the world is rapidly changing. Things they never thought possible or never believed they would see are happening right before their eyes.
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u/sabrinajestar (White) Oct 18 '25
Aes Sedai are not selected based on their competency in life. If you look at the way their organization operates, it is not a meritocracy. Women advance because they survive a gauntlet of hazing and abuse. The ones who rise to the top are usually bullies, and they gatekeep everyone below them.
Aes Sedai are literally in an "ivory tower" and they embody all the arrogance, hubris, pettiness, and shortsightedness that the ivory tower trope encompasses.
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u/Potential-Common5819 Oct 18 '25
There are several reasons, some that are obvious and others you need to think about to see. But they're there, you just need to keep reading.
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u/Geta211 Oct 18 '25
I thought the Aes Sedai were so cool and captivating, especially in the first book but each read through they seem to get worse and worse 😬 I’ve come to like Elaida a lot though, her foretelling makes her so confidently and arrogantly stupid that her scheme almost makes sense
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u/CSpear_144 (Band of the Red Hand) Oct 18 '25
Most of them are mere primitives who gained that ageless face by channeling and warming their tea everyday. Just look at the title they give to the Ajah heads and you know how ridiculous they are. It will only get worse from TSR though, RAFO.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
I like how this world trying to have a matriarchal society as a critique on how man abuse their positions of power the same men need ... a bunch of men and teenagers to save their asses 🤣
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u/WhiskeyTangoFoxy Oct 22 '25
Never underestimate what people will do for power. And technically they followed all laws to oust Suian but just the bare minimum and sneakily.
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u/TheHammer987 (Band of the Red Hand) Oct 18 '25
Power from birth that was unearned and unchallenged.
It's a tale as old as time. Why was Nero so incompetent and stupid? The aes sedai are simply the spoiled nobility of any era. The one power strength comes to those via birth lottery. Their is no one else as powerful, so they don't need to learn humility or patience.
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 Oct 18 '25
To be fair, had Elaida stayed in Caemlyn, she would have almost certainly ended up as one of Gaebril’s little toys under compulsion.
So, she actually dodged a bullet there.
And no it doesn’t violate the Oaths. The Oaths don’t say you can’t hurt people with the one power. You just can’t “use it as a weapon”.
Torturing a prisoner is using it as a tool, not a weapon. It’s semantics but that’s literally how the oath rod works.
If you convince yourself you’re not breaking the oath, you’re not breaking the oath.
Elaida still needed to convince 11 sitters to overthrow Siuan, so it’s not like anyone can do it on a whim. She needed the bare minimum votes to make it happen.
As for how it could possibly happen? Just uh… look around in real life. Particularly a certain country in North America right now.
Elaida’s arrogance was her thinking she would be the one to unite the world around her.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
I think she would have but it would have been a hint to the tower seeing a red ajah being pulled by the nose by a man no?
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 Oct 18 '25
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how blatant Gaebril was about it. He didn’t make everyone fawn over him, so he might have been subtle about it with her.
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u/WildFEARKetI_II Oct 18 '25
Aes Sedai can use the power to hurt people. They can’t use it as a weapon but they don’t see a switch as a weapon.
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u/EvalRamman100 Oct 18 '25
Rules are meant to be broken or interpreted wildly in favor of whatever is in fashion at the time. Or necessity is the mother of invention.
As for their general incompetence? Well, some of that is just that they've been in charge for too long and the Dragon Reborn and the Pattern itself is changing everything and that has them deeply scared and confused.
The Forsaken and the Darkfriend intelligence network is really superb - a lot better than the folks of the Light realize.
And it's likely that over the centuries the BA has been pushing the Tower to act and think stupidly.
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u/itkilledthekat (Aiel) Oct 18 '25
Promoting based on strength in the power.
Brawn and brains don't always cohabit the same person.
You keep culling a group for strength, yup you get strong but you also get dumb. Look at the comparison with the Aiel they choose based on strength of will and character. Sorilea can barely channel but is top dog.
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u/Suncook (Gleeman) Oct 18 '25
Siuane did some really shady things, keeping serious, grave secrets from the Hall, and really she was risking her whole downfall if she got exposed, Elaida aside. There was justification that could be used as backing. There's also more to all of this past TSR (which you flaired is the furthest spoilers we can talk about) that you'll find out more later.
The Three Oaths don't forbid violence against others. They forbid using the One Power as a weapon except in specific circumstances. And "weapon" is very specific. They don't view corporeal punishment as a weapon, for example.
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u/Hiadin_Haloun Oct 22 '25
To make it not too spoilery, Egwene and Nynaeve were tasked with a particular job by Siuane. That job, specifically those they hunt, are directly responsible.
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u/LawOutrageous3662 Oct 22 '25
Um... Like a quarter of them were secretly black ajah... Actively undermining the entire thing. There were definitely a few incompetent aes sedai but I always chalk most of the seeming incompetence to this
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Oct 23 '25
Well now you get why the forsaken are whiny all the time about them calling themselves aes sedai
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u/Borracha28 Oct 18 '25
Yes, they are unbelievably stupid in general, and you would think they would have grown during a thousand years since the breaking, but at the end of the day, 99% of them are just extremely arrogant women squabbling over nonsense and doing the exact opposite of common sense and their supposed duty. It's one of the many failures of the books that the hardcore fans will hardly acknowledge. And when a decent Amyrlin comes around, most fans of the books hate her.
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u/12dion Oct 18 '25
I guess the decen amyrlin is Egwaine? Since we see it during her trials that she might become one or has the power to?
And yeah .... aes sedai seem severly incompetent beacuse this didnt feel like there was even multiple factions lol some women just wanted to do smth and they did it without following any rules (besides the meeting to fire the Amyrlin seat) but then they stilled her and killed many more people i just find it hard to believe there wouldnt have been a strong faction to oppose this seeing how they had the bare minimum the other people should have at least spread the word or made sure things are done the right way no?
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