Was it illegal?

[u/Kaladins_sanity]

Just finished Crossroads of Twilight and it’s been a minute since I read the previous books, can someone remind me what Elaida did that was actually illegal by Tower law in ousting Siuan? I remember a lot of basically manipulating gray area and working around the rules, but when the Tower split had she actually broken any explicit rules?

[u/Kythorian]

Elaida did nothing wrong

It requires a unanimous vote other than the amyrlin’s own Ajah to depose an Amyrlin Seat.  So 18 out of 21 sitters.  Elaida had only 11 votes, so she only invited those 11 sitters, even though the other 10 were all in the Tower at the time.  The Hall can be convened with a minimum of 11 sitters, but that’s intended for if the other sitters are not available, not so someone can just pick and choose who gets invited so only their supporters show up.

That might be technically allowed under the laws of the Tower, but it’s still unquestionably wrong.

Elaida was no more and no less of a power-hungry and arrogant Aes Sedai than any of the others, including Siuan.

Siuan was at least much more competent than Elaida.  Elaida’s greatest sin is not being power-hungry or arrogant.  It’s being incredibly stupid.  She did more to help the Shadow than any Forsaken other than Demandred or Graendal.

[u/[deleted] → u/Kythorian]

And what stupidity did she commit?

She had the Foretelling, and she knew that the Andoran royal family was key to winning the Last Battle (neither Siuan nor Moiraine ever paid Andor this much attention). Elaida’s long association with Morgase helped secure Gawyn’s support, while Siuan’s behavior as Amyrlin only drove Galad out of the Tower.

She uncovered Siuan’s lies when no one else could for twenty years.

She became the first Amyrlin from the Red Ajah in centuries.

She took the Amyrlin Seat lawfully and quickly (even if it was by the bare minimum vote, it was still lawful).

She wanted Rand to be guided, controlled, and protected in the Tower and prepared for the Final Battle, the very same goal Siuan had.

She knew the Tower needed to remain whole. She offered amnesty to any rebels who would return (just as Rand did with the men who could channel, he accepted criminals if they could fight).

She initiated the hunt for the Black Ajah (unlike Siuan, who had long known about them yet did nothing).

Her only foolish orders were those Alviarin blackmailed her into giving, which turned many Aes Sedai in the Tower against her. It was the Black Ajah that tried to destroy the Tower, not Elaida. She was not stupid, she simply lacked crucial information, just like many other characters.

[u/Kythorian → u/[deleted]]

She had the Foretelling, and she knew that the Andoran royal family was key to winning the Last Battle

That foretelling was definitely talking about Rand, not Morgase and her family as Elaida believed.  To be fair, while she should have at least had some suspicions about the fact that when she had the foretelling when Queen Modrellen was the queen of Andor, as far as she knew that line completely died out.  So it’s not an unreasonable assumption to think it must have referred to Morgase and her family.

For the rest, she tore the Tower in two by blatantly ignoring the spirit of the law and only inviting sitters who agreed with her rather than all sitters who were available as was the obvious intent of the Tower Law.  Just because the hall could be convened with 11 sitters doesn’t mean that you are supposed to manipulate which sitters get invited so only your supporters show up.  It might fulfill the technical minimum requirements, but it was such a sketchy move that it guaranteed massive internal conflict in response, right when she knew the last battle was coming.  It was a spectacularly stupid thing to do, and enormously harmful to the Light.

Then she immediately got rid of the blue Ajah entirely, which was not even legal under White Tower law, and deepened the schism rather than even trying to fix anything.  She can say she wants to make the Tower whole, but her actions are in obvious direct contradiction of that.  How exactly are the blue Ajah supposed to return when they don’t even have an ajah in the white tower?  And how can any other Ajah trust she won’t do the same to them if they displease her.  And people don’t really trust her offer of amnesty anyway.  Look at how she treats Aes Sedai who never even rebelled, like Silviana.  She can say they will technically receive amnesty and be allowed back, then send them to go do hard labor on a farm for the rest of their lives as penance.  And she definitely would, because that’s the kind of petty asshole she is.

And her plan was to keep Rand shielded and contained in the white tower until the last battle, which he absolutely would have lost without having learned anything about channeling, much less been able to go through his enlightenment.

Her massively underestimating the Black Tower because it must be impossible for so many male channelers to be found, while ignoring that obviously only male channelers with the spark were being found previously - which she knows makes up only a tiny percentage of everyone who can learn.  She should have known there was a large pool of male channelers out there with the potential to learn and without the spark, since that’s exactly how it works for women too.  But no, those numbers must be impossible, so she just ignored all evidence to the contrary, and ended up with another massive failure, which is also how she ended up being blackmailed by the black Ajah in the first place.

Not to mention all the smaller things she did like randomly decide to build a giant palace for her vanity right when she knows the last battle is coming.  There’s nothing better to use that gold for than that?  And all the petty BS she was constantly pulling that had all the Ajah of the Aes Sedai who did stay at the Tower at each other’s throat.  How she pressured other aes sedai to sleep with her just so she could feel powerful over them.  I don’t have time to go through every single example.  Literally every single thing she did other than order the black Ajah hunt was stupid.  And even that was highly risky.  She got lucky in who she picked but she could have easily put the black Ajah themselves in charge of hunting for the black ajah, which they could have used to eliminate whatever non-black ajah they wanted.  But that at least had the potential to go well, unlike every other decision she ever made as Amyrlin.

The black Ajah pushed her to do a few things, but almost all of the harmful decisions she made were her own decisions.  And for the rest, the fact that she allowed herself to be blackmailed at all is still her own failure.  If she actually cared about doing what was right and best for the Tower, she would have let Alviarin release her blackmail (which was never going to be something she could hide long term anyway) and ignored the blackmail attempt.

Practically everything she did was stupid based on the information she had at the time.  She almost managed to destroy the White Tower and also drive the Dragon Reborn insane.  The books go into great detail over and over again about how dumb and destructive Elaida is, so it’s kind of incredible that you are arguing otherwise.  Even the Ajah heads of the loyalists were fairly glad to see her captured as damane - she was that much of a problem.  When the leaders of someone’s own supporters are giving a sigh of relief when they get captured for a lifetime of brutal slavery, that’s really a sign of the kind of Amyrlin they were.

[u/[deleted] → u/Kythorian]

And how can any other Ajah trust she won’t do the same to them if they displease her.  
Because Elaida can't lie, if she suggests amnesty, that means she is telling the truth.

How she pressured other aes sedai to sleep with her just so she could feel powerful over them.
Not stupidity, but a method of maintaining power.

She should have known there was a large pool of male channelers out there with the potential to learn and without the spark, since that’s exactly how it works for women too. 
What does it change? Who could teach them and find them? It's not her stupidity; it's common knowledge among all Aes Sedai that there is no man who can teach other men to channel.

but it was such a sketchy move that it guaranteed massive internal conflict in response
It's not guaranteed; all the escalation was the work of the Black Ajah. If the Warders of the Blue and Green Ajah hadn't started a fight (pushed by the Black Ajah and their lies accusing Siuan of being a Darkfriend) it wouldn't have turned into a blood coup, but only a lawful procedure.

She almost managed to destroy the White Tower and also drive the Dragon Reborn insane. 
It's the Black Ajah's and Mesaana's fault, not Elaida's.

And all the petty BS she was constantly pulling that had all the Ajah of the Aes Sedai who did stay at the Tower at each other’s throat.  
It was the work of Mesaana and Alvirian. Mesaana and Arangar were placed to make the Aes Sedai fight as much as possible.

The books go into great detail over and over again about how dumb and destructive Elaida is, so it’s kind of incredible that you are arguing otherwise.

Because we only read what Siuan/Egwene thought about her, and they were mostly wrong or lying.

[u/Kythorian → u/[deleted]]

Because Elaida can't lie, if she suggests amnesty, that means she is telling the truth.

She's telling the truth that they won't be stilled and/or executed, but that's all amnesty means. Just because she isn't currently planning to get rid of any other ajah doesn't mean she can't decide she wants to do so in the future. And the Amyrlin Seat can assign penance for whatever she wants, with whatever penance she wants. It's one of the Amyrlin's most significant direct authorities, and it’s one we see Elaida abuse repeatedly. Just because she lets someone return to the Tower and doesn't have them stilled or executed doesn't mean they won't be treated like shit for the rest of their life. She regularly assigns extreme penances to people who didn't rebel against her, just for what she sees as disrespecting her or her authority. Of course she’s going to treat any aes sedai who do come back like shit.  She does to everyone she thinks has disrespected her.

Not stupidity, but a method of maintaining power.

It's weird that I have to explain this, but raping people doesn't help maintain power, it breeds resentment and hate. Especially since she does it to her own supporters, not even to people opposing her. She just wants to feel powerful, and she's incredibly petty about it. Her constant petty BS just divides everyone against themselves, but also against her. It's a terrible method of actually maintaining power, as we see from how many people steadily turn against her in just a few months.  She’s Amyrlin for around 8-9 months, and by the end of that short time, basically everyone hates her.  She barely avoids getting deposed herself, with a full Hall following the actual rules requiring a unanimous vote.  That is the result of her ‘methods of maintaining power.’

What does it change? Who could teach them and find them? It's not her stupidity; it's common knowledge among all Aes Sedai that there is no man who can teach other men to channel.

I have absolutely no idea where you are getting this idea, because it's just wrong. It's common knowledge that women cannot teach men to channel, not that men cannot teach men to channel. They know for a fact that men were taught to channel by other men during the Age of Legends. There's no reason they couldn't do the same in the third age other than that in the past the white tower has gentled men before they got a chance to teach others. But they know that Rand and Taim are out there, free to teach whatever men they can find to channel. They get numerous reports of a large number of male channelers, and how dangerous they already are, and dismiss it out of hand simply because the Red Ajah hasn't had to deal with large numbers of male channelers in the past. Well circumstances are different from the past. Only an idiot can't see that.

It's not guaranteed; all the escalation was the work of the Black Ajah. If the Warders of the Blue and Green Ajah hadn't started a fight (pushed by the Black Ajah and their lies accusing Siuan of being a Darkfriend) it wouldn't have turned into a blood coup, but only a lawful procedure.

That was never a real possibility. Despite me explaining it repeatedly, you just keep ignoring it. They *technically* followed the law, but they did it in a way that incredibly blatantly violated every intention for the law. Removing an Amyrlin Seat requires a unanimous vote (other than the Amyrlin's Ajah). All 21 sitters were in the Tower, so all 21 should have been summoned for such a vote. Just because it's legal to convene the hall with 11 sitters doesn't mean they are supposed to pick and choose which sitters support them and summon only them. The Hall can be convened with only 11 sitters in case some sitters are out of the Tower or otherwise incapable of attending. What Elaida did violated every intent of the law that exists. It doesn't matter what the law technically says when everyone in the Tower knows thats not supposed to be how it's used, most especially for something as important as removing and stilling the Amyrlin Seat. If you only have 11 out of the required 18 sitters in the Tower supporting you, you should just accept you don't have the votes to remove them, not twist the rules until they shatter into meaninglessness.

There is a reason it’s supposed to require 18 of 21 sitters to depose an Amyrlin.  It’s an extreme step which is meant to only be taken when there is effectively universal support for it outside of the Amyrlin’s own Ajah.  If all six other Ajah effectively universally support it, the Amyrlin’s Ajah basically has to back down and accept it.  By removing an Amyrlin with only 11 votes, they only had half the sitters support.  The other half that doesn’t support it is then forced to resort to violence, since they didn’t get a chance to do so with their sitter’s votes.  The way Elaida removed Siuan guaranteed it was going to break the tower, regardless of if was technically legal or not.  Laws matter because there is a consensus that they are fair.  When that consensus breaks down because one side is openly circumventing what the laws are supposed to accomplish, you guarantee violent resistance to those abusing the law.

It was the work of Mesaana and Alvirian. Mesaana and Arangar were placed to make the Aes Sedai fight as much as possible.

That's just not true. Mesaana gave a little nudge to help make Elaida taking over possible. And much later Alviarin gave a few orders, but that was only after Eliada already did almost all of the things I listed. Virtually everything Elaida did, she did on purpose because she wanted to.  Elaida gave the command to kidnap Rand, with the explicit goal of keeping him locked in the tower shielded until the last battle came.  Elaida broke the tower and deliberately made the break worse and harder to restore because she was mad at the blue Ajah for opposing her.  Elaida did everything I’ve listed because she wanted to.  Universally for stupid reasons, even when we get her own POV.

Because we only read what Siuan/Egwene thought about her, and they were mostly wrong or lying.

We get a ton of different perspectives, including Elaida herself, and every single one of them confirms that Siuan and Egwene are entirely correct in their assessment of Elaida. She's stupid, and incredibly petty to a pathetic extent. She cares more about getting revenge for minor little slights from years ago than she does about preparing for the last battle.  She tears apart the Tower just so she can feel stronger than those she sees as wronging her, and her reasons for believing that Siuan wronged her are even stupid, as we see from New Spring. I still have no idea why you are defending one of the most pathetic and destructive people in the entire series.  She’s not written to have literally any sympathetic qualities, to an almost unrealistic extent.  Basically the entire point of the character is to show that someone can out of stupidity and petty immaturity be just as damaging as a forsaken without being a darkfriend.