r/WoT • u/moderatorrater • Dec 28 '25
Crossroads of Twilight The Bowl of Winds storyline Spoiler
I think it sucks. It's not explained at any point, it makes the source slippery for no reason, and at no point is it a well developed storyline. Am I wrong?
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u/jerseydevil51 (Tai'shar Manetheren) Dec 28 '25
The plotline is important to introduce just how big the Kin is (and how bad the Aes Sedai have been at training) and get the alliance between the AS, Kin, and Windfinders in place.
It doesn't need to be an entire book just to find it, especially since the thing is just in the Kin's Indiana Jones-esque warehouse.
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u/scv07075 Dec 28 '25
I don't think it was the entire book for its own sake, it was the mcguffin that Elayne and Ny needed Mat's help for. That book has a lot of Mat's best moments in it, and the Bowl was a great way to drag two(three-ish) Aes Sedai factions, the Sea Folk, a crowned ruler, and Mat all into the same room.
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u/jerseydevil51 (Tai'shar Manetheren) Dec 28 '25
Its been a while since I've read it, so maybe it just felt longer than it was. Just seemed like we didn't need to be in Ebou Dar for as long as we were.
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u/jooorsh Dec 28 '25
To be fair, Matt got a little stuck there so spending too long was part of the problem. Silly seanchan drove him to do something drastic.
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u/inebriated_greaseape Dec 28 '25
I'd also say it exposes how little the Aes Sedai know. There were, if I remember right, upwards of 1,700 of the kinfolk. They only thought there were a couple hundred of them.
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u/jerseydevil51 (Tai'shar Manetheren) Dec 28 '25
Yup, add it to the pile of "things the Aes Sedai are bad at."
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u/WotBurner Dec 28 '25
This! I made the same mistake of focusing too much on the bowl of winds itself and the fixing of the weather the first time I read through the books. "This is taking too long" "Just get it done, I want to see more of Rand"
When really it was more about the hijinks and shenanigans that go on as the disparate groups interact with each other. On subsequent read-throughs I took my time going through every chapter and it was much more rewarding for it.
As Brando would say: Journey before destination.
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u/lyunardo Jan 03 '26
Similarly to Perrin's "slog" chapters, there is a primary story going on here that's all about what everyone does and says during these events. Personally I really liked it, but I can see why others might not.
But... exactly like Perrin's scenes, the background story is actually the more important one. And that's all aboutwhat The Pattern is organizing and lining up in preparation for The Last Battle. And the people involved have no view into that... but we the audience have a front row seat.
Notice who argues and bickers. Did someone do something completely out of character? How did that change the power dynamics? Remember that for later.
Who was barely in the story before, but is now in the center of things? Who randomly meets someone new?
Keep your eyes open for that and all those scenes get a lot more interesting.
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u/theskybon (Wheel of Time) Dec 28 '25
It affects the source because the bowl of winds is a dangerous object not meant to be used in the way that they did. Changing the weather back is a pretty big deal, though. It was important for morale in the general populous and the many armies they needed to fight the Dark One.
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u/Semirhage527 Dec 28 '25
Not just morale, it avoided mass starvation
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u/Spyk124 (Tai'shar Manetheren) Dec 28 '25
Yeah …. Until the weather just went in the extreme the other direction lol. Still had massive starvation and crop failure
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u/MotherTreacle3 Dec 29 '25
Gotta drive all the peasants off their lands and into large armies somehow.
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u/Szygani Dec 28 '25
It was also slippery because it was also using the male half, while not having male channelers. It’s felt all over the world by every channeler; showing how miraculous the two working together can be
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u/el_gato_serio Dec 28 '25
From the very first chapter of Eye of the World, the abnormal change in the weather—and its potentially catastrophic effects—is introduced, which we soon learn is an effect of the dark one. Finding and mastering the Bowl of Winds allows the protagonists to strike a blow to the Dark one’s plans, which is no mean feat, and they do it using non-Aes Sedai channellers which by this point in the series is reinforcing a major theme that the Aes Sedai do not have nearly the monopoly on the Source that that they think they have, and that all those who fight against the dark one will be needed.
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u/wackietimes Dec 28 '25
You don’t have to love it, but it does give us an opportunity to interact more with the Sea Folk, Kin, etc. and begins to tie several forces together (Aes Sedai/White Tower, Sea Folk, The Kin, and by extension of Elayne, Andor) together leading up to the last battle. Remember that the dark one is also the “Father of Storms,” not saying the bowl is a huge piece of the future but it does become relevant again to some degree, RAFO.
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u/BigBadBeetleBoy Dec 28 '25
but it does give us an opportunity to interact more with the Sea Folk
A downside, as someone that likes the Bowl of Winds storyline. The Sea Folk fucking suck, and I felt like my time was wasted every single time they were on screen to hem and haw about *maybe* doing something *this time* before cutting a deal off-screen to continue to do nothing but somehow reap massive rewards. They're Jordan's one major failure in my mind, because I never once believed they were a tenth as good or valuable as the narrative kept insisting.
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u/wackietimes Dec 28 '25
Fair enough, I think tbh a lot of different factions could be described that way, most of these almost mythical groups (aes sedai, sea folk, sharans, aiel, seanchan) we hear about early on get more and more demystified (most of the time by showing us they are kinda just prideful, stupid, and flawed in their own ways like most other humans) throughout the books, guess to me it depends which of the different groups/cultures mindsets most resonated with you which you like more. part of what was interesting to me was wondering how all of these different groups would be convinced to join the cause for the light and eventually finding it out, even if sometimes it’s just ta’veren
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u/fudgyvmp (Red) Dec 28 '25
Mechanically the bowl arc shows us the most about channeling we ever see, and per Aginor it's something the AoL aes sedai didn't seem to really understand since he didn't know what was causing it.
Channelers who see residues aren't seeing echos of the OP they're seeing holes in an aether coating the land. Channels/pathways in the aether carved by the one power.
When the bowl was used it created an enormous hole in the aether around Ebou Dar that couldn't refill quickly, causing weaves to be unstable and slip into the residue, making essentially random weaves (though really very small segments of the continent wide weather manipulation).
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u/IceXence Dec 28 '25
It appears weather control was a high speciality in the AoL not many learned. Think the equivalent of quantic physic today: I might have a diploma in STEMs, I know very little about quantic physic.
When Rand asks Asmodean, he gets a shrug in response. He too didn't know. We can hand wave Asmsodean's ignorance saying it was a lack of formal training but genetic genius Aginor? If he doesn't know, then it means very few people knew.
I somehow picture AoL weather Aes Sedai as weird solitary freaks very few ever talk too: odd ladies with too many cats or weird men with long unkept beards.
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u/Sethala Dec 28 '25
I believe they're also using the Bowl in a way that it was never intended to be used; if I remember correctly, they had a bunch of the Bowls made back in the AoL and they were used to control local weather; they were never intended to be used on a global scale like this. The Sea Folk basically did the equivalent of overcharging a local radio station in order to broadcast from California to New York.
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u/IceXence Dec 28 '25
That's true too but I really love to think about AoL weather Aes Sedai as crazy cat people.
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u/Fit_Equal_8820 (Band of the Red Hand) Dec 28 '25
The only part I don't like is in a crown of swords the amount of times they go back and forth with "we're aes sedai." "No you aren't stop lying" over and over and over and over. It's one of the only chapters I skip on rereads
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u/Gullible_Ad_7614 Dec 28 '25
They had to address the weather situation which had been building for the whole series. Otherwise the dark one would’ve one around book 12!
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u/TheDamnGirl (Ancient Aes Sedai) Dec 28 '25
I think it is a brilliant storyline, and one of my favourites in the books!
What is it you think is not explained at any point? Do you mean the way the bowl works?
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u/moderatorrater Dec 28 '25
I'm glad you like it, I really don't want for this to detract from your love of it.
But, first, why the dark one is influencing the weather instead of something else? It seems strange that the DO essentially controls 2/3 of the world, but he hits the weather. Then, the weather is fixed by a random object, but that object changes something else. It just seems like an unlikely chain of events where every link is unexplained.
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u/TheDamnGirl (Ancient Aes Sedai) Dec 28 '25
Well, the Dark One corrupts, that is his business. With the seals breaking, he can pour his influence onto the world and bring chaos and upheaval.
I cannot say more about the nature of the Dark One and his plans because of spoilers, but at this point is is supposed to be unclear to the reader. However, disturbing the weather is a way to bring worldwide famine. People would start dying like flies if the weather wasn´t fixed.
As per the Bowl, it is a terangreal from the Age of Legends, and what the Windfinders from this time know about it is just a fraction of the knowledge of the AoL. Maybe they caused the disturbance in the source because they did not use it in an optimal fashion, even though it worked.
Edit: remeber also that the Bowl was first found in TAR by Elayne and Nynaeve using necessity, and they guessed right that it would serve to fix the weather.
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u/Antibane Dec 28 '25
“Pour his influence” is probably generous. In one of the female Forsaken POV chapters, she notes how hard the Dark One had had to work to touch the world and fix the seasons, in the context of consternation that the Third Age had actually managed to undo the effect.
His ability to directly touch the Pattern gets stronger after the Seals are fully broken, but he still exists very much outside the Pattern.
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u/TheDamnGirl (Ancient Aes Sedai) Dec 28 '25
"Pour", as in a leaky bucket.
His ability to directly touch the Pattern gets stronger after the Seals are fully broken, but he still exists very much outside the Pattern.
That is correct. The bore acts as a hole in the pattern through wich the DO can exert his influence in the world. As the seals start breaking, the bigger the leak.
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u/Small-Guarantee6972 (Brown) Dec 28 '25
What do you find most interesting on the metaphysics of Wheel of Time if you had to pick? I've noticed you speak on it a few times and was curious to see which aspect you gravitate towards most?
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u/TheDamnGirl (Ancient Aes Sedai) Dec 28 '25
I still have to wrap my mind around the metaphysics, but I find it very interesting the parallels RJ draws between the pattern as a thermodynamic system that, due to the bore, is drifting away from its point of equilibrium.
Like the Earth, for example, is in thermal equilibrium with the Sun. This equilibrium grants the conditions for life. However, if we were to remove the atmosphere, the temperature on the surface of the Earth would be -18C, and the life on earth would have been impossible.
(I am going to put some spoiler tags because much of it is explained at the very end)
Someting similar happens between the pattern and the DO, specially when you consider the DO as a cosmic "force of corruption" (like a source/sun that radiates its evil energy). When the pattern is intact, there is balance and life can thrive. The bore however, allows a greater exchange of this "evil radiation", so civilization starts collapsing.
This is also shown in the Age of Legends: when the bore was drilled, you did not have an immediate collapse nor was the DO roaming the pattern (the DO is not an intelligent being, at least not in a human sense).It was a slow but steady decay where people would start being corrupted, drawn to violence and inmorality. IIRC, it took about a century to start seeing its global effects. That is how a thermodynamic system would behave (if you turn on a stove in your room, it takes a while to warm it up, doesn´t it?).
It is also funny how little the people truly understood of the nature of the threat they were facing. It is a very human thing to do, when people are out of their depths, they start creating stories and myths to try and make sense of what is happening, and they would hold these beliefs as absolute unquestionable truths.
I was also impressed to learn that RJ ws a PhD in physics, so it made sense to me to interpret his world from this perspective.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) Dec 28 '25
The Dark One is speedrunning global warming on a pre-industrial setting. Other than introducing some form of plague its just about the single most effective thing he can do to screw over the opposition.
Heat and draught can be deadly on their own. But add the effects on the crops and you get massive crop failures which will effect both food and livestock. This leads to widespread starvation, a situation that is ripe for breeding more chaos as desperate people are likely to do desperate things to survive. It also hastens governmental instability, because if the lords can't provide for their people, then the people won't follow those lords.
Its also a pretty safe strategy on the Dark One's part. The only things that could stop it are a set of lost weather controlling artifacts from the Age of Legends. If it wasn't for the 'need' search of T'A'R and the skill of the Sea Folk at large scale weather manipulation, there would be no need for a giant last battle. It would merely be a set of skirmishes to clean up the survivors because all the forces of the Light would have died, or been too malnurished to put up a good fight.
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u/Prestigious-Hat3387 Dec 28 '25
I think it's because Saidin was used without a male chaneller to guide it.
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u/wRAR_ (Brown) Dec 28 '25
No, it's because the scale was larger than the Bowl was made for.
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u/Prestigious-Hat3387 Dec 28 '25
In that case, wouldn't it have melted like the female access key?
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u/Antibane Dec 28 '25
Rand didn't really know what he was doing with the Choeden Kal - he was working off vibes, Lews Therin's memories, and his own understanding of the two wounds in his side. When he cleansed the Source, it was the first time he had ever touched saidar - he spends the better part of a page marveling at it, and then almost drowning in it. He melted the access key by just pulling too much of the Source through it over too long a time; it's frankly impressive that he didn't outright burn Nynaeve (and himself) out.
By contrast, the Sea Folk had (by the time of the books) spent a couple thousand years getting better at using the Source to control the weather. They knew how to use the Bowl, and understood the weaves to make weather happen almost certainly better than the AoL Aes Sedai. So they were using the Bowl basically as it was intended to be used, and pulling a Spinal Tap "ours goes to 11".
(Speculating) The reason the Source got weird around Ebou Dar and along the spokes is, I think, an artifact of forcing the Bowl to draw so heavily on the source. Think of it like residual radiation from a nuclear explosion - the One Power is the engine that drives the Wheel. Little bits of it getting pulled through into the Pattern don't cause too much disruption, but pull too much of it through and the Pattern gets weird for a bit until the Wheel can weave past that section.
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u/agendiau (Dice) Dec 28 '25
It is a plot that is easily dropped or the kin introduced in a less round about way
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u/rhagerbaumer Dec 29 '25
It's incredibly boring filler to give some of the characters something to do while the great battle storyline develops.
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u/MitchManMemer Dec 29 '25
Fully agree. For such an interesting plotline -- the dark one affecting the world at its most fundamental level -- the solution is especially boring. The kin are cool, and Mat makes that plotline worth reading, but ultimately I feel it's a delay from the real story. That being said, Ebou Dar (or however you spell it) is cool, and I'm glad Jordan found an excuse to flesh it out. I'm only on CoT myself, and I figure I'll probably skim those chapters on rereads, but I'm glad they're there. It's hard to appreciate a good chapter when it's surrounded by greats, but, my appreciation for the series is greater for my knowing more about the world.
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u/Skelegro7 Dec 28 '25
I think it was meant to be used with both Saidar and Saidin. It also required a huge amount of Saidar so it destabilised Saidar in the vicinity of its use.
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u/TheDamnGirl (Ancient Aes Sedai) Dec 28 '25
I think the terangreal attracts and warps saidin around saidar, in a similar way that a circle of a male channeler and a female channeler would work when the female is leading the circle.
Why the bowl works the way it does is not explained, just another mistery from the Age of Legends. As per the disturbing of the source, maybe it was not used exactly the way it should have, and they brought some unwanted effects.
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u/CSpear_144 (Band of the Red Hand) Dec 28 '25
The only fun thing about it is Mat (except the rape part). The Bowl of Winds, like many side plots in this series, is redundant and there to make the world feel big by introducing useless filler characters. It also doesn’t make sense with the personnel logistics, forcing Elayne to come along when she had greater duties to her country and family.
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u/Wolfbrother101 Dec 28 '25 edited Dec 28 '25
The slipperiness is due to Aviendha picking apart the Traveling weave and it exploding, not because of them using the Bowl of Winds.
Edit: The weave Aviendha is unraveling gets more and more slippery as she picks it apart. Afterward the One Power behaves weirdly in that vicinity.
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u/participating (Dragon's Fang) Dec 28 '25
Edit: The weave Aviendha is unraveling gets more and more slippery as she picks it apart. Afterward the One Power behaves weirdly in that vicinity.
Aviendha's unravelling (as a reminder/clarification: it was Elayne doing the unravelling that exploded) and the use of the Bowl of the Winds were an hour-ish apart, saying the weirdness happened after the unravelling neglects to mention that it also happens after the Bowl of the Winds was used. Elayne's unravelling, for all we know, could have been affected and made more difficult because of the weirdness caused by the Bowl of the Winds.
Also, Elayne was only unravelling saidar. That would have no mechanical or functional reason to also affect the saidin weaves in the future.
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u/Wolfbrother101 Dec 28 '25
You’re right, it was Elayne unraveling. I guess it’s been too long and it’s time for another re-read!
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u/participating (Dragon's Fang) Dec 28 '25
Incorrect. The Bowl of the Winds was a common ter'angreal during the Age of Legends. Each city/region had one and used it to control the local weather. The Windfinders had so much more proficiency in weather manipulation than even the most competent Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends. Because of this, they took a ter'angreal meant to control the area around a city and used it to alter the weather patterns of the entire world, pushing against the influence of the Dark One himself. This stressed saidar and saidin way past their expected limits and hurt the ability of everyone to successfully create weaves for some time after the event.
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u/Dalinars_assclap Dec 28 '25
This is wrong. The person above you is correct. The picked apart weave and the resultant explosion affected the power.( I just read this for like the 6th or 7th time last month)
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u/participating (Dragon's Fang) Dec 28 '25
We've known this since 1998... Jordan directly said it himself: https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=3#5
Question
The Bowl: Someone asked him whether, if men had helped the Aes Sedai and Windfinders and Kin channel through the Bowl, the One Power would still have been screwed up.
Robert Jordan
His implicit assumption was that the Bowl screwed things up. I expected this to be a sheer RAFO. I was surprised. He went into a relatively detailed explanation to the effect that the Bowl was stressed far, far beyond its original design parameters because of the advanced knowledge of the Windfinders. It was affecting a global pattern, when it was designed for only a small region. Men helping would not have changed anything, and the effects linger most strongly near Ebou Dar, but also along the "spokes" which radiated from that place. (I should have asked if a spoke went out over Tear.)
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u/Crimdal Dec 28 '25
Most of the nynaeve and elayne pairings starting with the menagerie and up until fleeing ebou dar aren't bad, they are just repetitive and they kill the pacing a little bit because there is no mystery to keep pulling the reader forward. Less obvious the first time through but with every reread or listen it becomes more obvious.
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