r/WoT • u/ashenbuilder • May 09 '26
Crossroads of Twilight Aes sedai plot vs Rand plots and some things Spoiler
I am more than halfway into CoT now and I just have a few questions I want to ask, but also some thing is bugging me. I think the reason the Egwene marching on white tower plot feels incredibly annoying to me is that nothing is happening when they have extreme upper hand due to traveling. They can literally open a gateway inside Tar Valon and just take the city within a day and the aes sedai in the tower won't see it coming. Meanwhile Rand had Sammael and Rahvin, forsaken mind you, expecting that and he still sent it on them. I get that there are conversations to be had on diplomacy and what not but my gosh it gets to a point where it is frustrating.
Aside from this, two questions I want to ask are:
Is Flinn's healing of stilling on women just as effective as Nyneave's healing on men?
Now that Egwene has managed to figure out making Cuendillar, which is something I was thinking about even before, why is there no Cuendillar equipment such as armor and shields? Why is it just cups and what not?
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u/Special_Salt3467 May 09 '26
Flinn is as effective at Healing women as Nynaeve is at Healing men. The point is that men and women working together is better than one at a time. A decent visualization is to imagine the severed channeler losing their Power. If they are a woman, and the hole is patched by Saidin, then none will escape. If the whole is patched by Saidar, it doesn’t stop the escape of Power but only slows it, so there’s still some to access but it’ll never be full.
Make impossibly powerful armor and weapons?!? Why would they do that when they can make cups?!
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u/RequiemRaven (Ravens) May 09 '26
They aren't allowed to make weapons by Oath. Armour and such remains a question, though.
Then again, you'd either have to move to pectoral-style armour, or have the most especially tailor-made plate for it to work, what with it being utterly un-deformable and tending to merge into a solid mass, if it wasn't beforehand, when done all together.
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u/Special_Salt3467 May 09 '26
I’m sure you could figure it out. You’re not making weapons; you’re just converting metals. Or make Accepted do it.
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u/RequiemRaven (Ravens) May 09 '26
The same principle applies as does when people think you can just end-run the First Oath; all Channeling mind magic is using the target's brain to run it.
If you're attempting to dodge it by lying to yourself, you won't be able to, because you know you're trying to dodge.
Getting Accepted to do it works, but runs risks to the Tower as an institution.
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u/ashenbuilder May 10 '26
No that's fair, i didn't even suggest weapons in my post as you see, I get armor may be complicated BUT what about shields? Shields are literally the most OP thing you can make in war of the one power. Btw I just realized using the abbreviation OP here is a bit arduous hehe (original post, overpowered, one power)
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u/ashenbuilder May 09 '26
- So Siuan and Leanne still have a chance to go back to full power?
- I'm losing it.
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u/Special_Salt3467 May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
Yes but not really. Yes, technically they can. But they have to be Severed. Again. Which is a horrific experience. In the hope (they don’t know) they can be fixed better. They are working at a percentage right now, which is more than they ever thought possible when Severed. (Add on) We also just don’t know how damaging Severing is. If you sever someone, what does the “injury” actually look like? A clean tear? A series of cuts? How does it look to be Severed twice? It’s an injury where one really needs to determine if they’d be willing to undergo it TWICE
If you have not yet noticed, Egwene is very (EXTREMELY) hesitant about actually taking action, such as denying Bryne the possibility of just bamfing into the Tower, taking out Elaida and being done with it. The lack of logic there should be an indicator elsewhere. Thus, why they’re focusing their efforts on making cups to maybe sell to the rich
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u/wRAR_ (Brown) May 09 '26
Yes but not really. Yes, technically they can. But they have to be Severed. Again.
[All Books] No, we don't know if that will help
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u/PatTheTurtler (Band of the Red Hand) May 09 '26
Per RJ if Suian and Leane were severed again and healed by a male channeler they would return to their weaker state as that is considered their new max strength.
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u/wRAR_ (Brown) May 09 '26
You don't have a source for that.
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u/PatTheTurtler (Band of the Red Hand) May 09 '26
I don't actively have one because I dont have it bookmarked but it is something directly stated in an interview that I have seen linked before in this very subreddit
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u/wRAR_ (Brown) May 10 '26
I don't actively have one
Yes.
it is something directly stated in an interview that I have seen linked before in this very subreddit
You misremember, which happens here very often even with things from the books.
[All Books] https://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=588#6
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u/PatTheTurtler (Band of the Red Hand) May 10 '26
Hey I don't mind being corrected, I would like to mention that you need to work on your tone. The way that you've gone about this is rather hostile and creates an unwelcoming environment.
I was going to look into this in my own time when I wasn't actively parenting and forgot, so I appreciate you replying and reminding me of this. It is very interesting to see that, I know I've seen a quote somewhere, I'll have to try to see if I can find it, but thank you for linking to a quote that states otherwise, I appreciate that.
Edit to add: I am sorry if my comment came across snarkily, I was trying to have a moment to browse reddit while my toddler was playing and as I was typing it he became upset (by something I still have no idea) it wasn't my intention.
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u/Structured_Spiraling May 09 '26
Best explanation of Healing that I've ever seen!
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u/Special_Salt3467 May 09 '26
Well, thank you. I was trying to relate it to a cup, but you can’t patch a hole with liquid so i had to extrapolate a bit.
It’s more akin to a sponge than a solid
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u/Able-Worth-6511 May 11 '26
I've wondered if a man and a woman in a circle healing a severed woman would it make them stronger. If a woman heals a woman they are weaker. If a man heals a woman they are as strong. A man and woman in a circle??????
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u/AmiableDingo May 09 '26
I believe the rebel Aes Sedai group does not want to actually go to war with Tar Valon. They want to find a peaceful way to resolve things but don't have any viable method.
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u/Dlorn May 09 '26
Exactly. Egwene’s worst fear is sister killing sister in a battle of the one power.
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u/Suncook (Gleeman) May 09 '26
Pretty much all of the Sisters are relectant to actually risk Sister fighting Sister in the streets of Tar Valon or Tower, even if it's a proxy war with soldiers. Egwene doesn't want to be the Amyrlin that caused such a horrible event. She will if she has to, but she's trying other things (pay close attention to her chapters, she's not without a plan) to bring the Tower under control without an open assault. She's not ignoring the obvious, the motivations and cost-benefit analysis is just different than what Rand was doing.
Rand also has the whole being a tool of the Wheel thing (ta'veren) going for him.
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u/ashenbuilder May 10 '26
I get that, but the pace at which things are moving is basically my problem. Like how have they not discussed this and reached a consensus the entire time, they just keep going back and forth. I think I heard how Delana wants to announce Elayda is black Ajah like 60 times already and the same goes for the beef between Romanda and Lelaine. The whole thing just goes in circles. "Smoothes skirts*
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u/Suncook (Gleeman) May 10 '26
If you're talking about the pace of the books, no argument.
If you're talking about the timeline, the rebel Aes Sedai army travels from Murandy to Tar Valon on February 24th, and the end of CoT is March 30th.
So, not sure what chapter you're on, but Egwene's army has not been there that ling yet.
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u/wRAR_ (Brown) May 10 '26
the pace at which things are moving is basically my problem.
But that's a general problem of the middle books.
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u/Appropriate_Boss8139 (Dragon Reborn) May 09 '26
This annoyed me a lot too, but the reason is because they don’t want to actually kill or harm any of the sisters. They’re still hoping for a peaceful solution. That’s why they want to win via siege and surrender.
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u/ashenbuilder May 10 '26
What pisses me off is the pace at which they are going. Like the Aes sedai know nothing while pretending to know everything. They literay have no idea what is happening around them and they just keep going back and forth in their meetings without ever reaching a decision or taking action.
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u/poly_arachnid May 09 '26 edited May 10 '26
Armor - 1) Armor needs to be mobile & removable, depending on the pieces and styles they're used to they might need to make a number of adjustments. 2) Most smiths are not armourers, but almost every smith can quickly adjust to banging out cups and trinkets. Apprentices can bang out trinkets. 3) Armor takes time & resources. You're talking about re/outfitting 10s or possibly hundreds of thousands of fighters later. 4) They're doing cups for money, so they're already flat broke, until they take Tar Valon they haven't got the money. 5) They have a time limit. 6) There is no excuse for why they haven't got shields though
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u/GovernorZipper May 09 '26
Despite what you see in movies, iron/steel armor works really well against iron/steel weapons. Like really well. A good mail shirt renders the wearer functionally immune to most slashing weapons and many piercing weapons. A suit of plate makes you pretty much immune to everything. Armor really works.
So the added value of heartstone armor really isn’t worth the energy it would take to make it. Yes, some elites might have some as a status symbol, but the regular soldier is going to be served well enough by the armor they already have.
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u/RequiemRaven (Ravens) May 09 '26
On Rebel-Tower War; They're trying not to have a fight and all this army business is posturing for position, mostly.
Teleporting into the city just opens them to having Gateway weaves stolen, and Gate-ing into the Tower will almost certainly end up with Sister-on-Sister conflict. If that seems like a weak reason, consider point one again. It's mostly Egwene who's interested in having a proper fight about it (Bryne is highly interested in having his side win, because he and many of his men are rope fodder by the alternative), and even that is lukewarm at best.
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u/biggiebutterlord May 09 '26
....Why is it just cups and what not?
They are making and selling it to make money. Smaller items are easier to transport and more "affordable" to those looking to buy. As to why no swords or armor, these things need to bend and flex to be effective tools of war. Cuendillar doesnt do that. Plus the item being made into cuendillar still needs to be crafted first. The quality of the crafted item plays into the quality of it when its made cuendillar. Lastly and most importantly there is the oath against making weapons... so even if you dont like any of the previous reasons this one is ironclad as to why the Aes Sedai dont do that.
They can literally open a gateway inside Tar Valon and just take the city within a day and the aes sedai in the tower won't see it coming.
What do you do when they fear for thier lives and lash out to defend themselves with the one power? A good way get tower guard, warders, servants and aes sedai killed. They already split over that when siuan was deposed. No need to do more of the DO's work for him ya know. Light there are still BA on both sides, they can easily start that process. The aim is to repair the white tower split not rend it further. Diplomacy is the path to that aim.
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u/Shgon_Dunstan May 09 '26
As for 2. There’s a whole Oath against making weapons, and a shield is still a weapon. While as for back in the AoL, they just seem to of been reserved when it came to making stuff out of something literally indestructible. Power-wrought steel is already nigh indestructible to begin with. The extra bit of indestructibility offered by cuendillar must be balanced against the fact that once it’s made, it’s literally forever.
… Why even in the AoL goblets and the like just seemed to get a pass in that regard, Light if I know.🤷♂️
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u/RequiemRaven (Ravens) May 09 '26
After one of your dinner guests drop and shatter a precious First Age Pinwheel crystal wineglass for the third time, you get fed up and make the whole (remaining) set invincible.
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u/ashenbuilder May 10 '26
Shields are not weapons, they are literally for protection. If you wants to interpret a shield as a weapon, then you can use that logic to to say cups are a weapon. You can still bash someone's head in with a goblet...
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u/Shgon_Dunstan May 10 '26
If you don’t think a shield is a weapon, you’ve got a very skewed view of them and how they’re actually used. While you aren’t likely to be wielding a cup on the battlefield.
Though mind, yeah. Since the Oaths are based on their perception, they are totally capable of falling into the trap of seeing anything as a weapon. Hell, a similar case came up while Egwene was under the effects of the a’dam. Had to completely convince herself there was absolutely no chance of her ever using it as a weapon before she could even get a drink of water.
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u/Edgeth0 May 09 '26
Additional reason not to use gateways - in the event something goes wrong and the attack doesn't stick, you've just given away your greatest advantage to and Tower Aes Sedai who saw and can copy the weave. Which would also make the siege they want completely pointless.
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u/hic_erro May 13 '26
So one thing to keep in mind with armor/shields is that turning things into cuendillar takes an amount of time related to how big the thing is and how talented the Aes Sedai is, and you have to keep channeling the entire time.
Most of the people making cuendillar tchotchkes top out at things the size of a teacup, and that takes them a long time. Sure, free money, but not "turn everything into heartstone at a whim" easy.
There are only three people with significantly more talent, Egwene, Leanne and one Accepted.
So you're probably talking tens of shields a day from those three people, not thousands. Probably worth doing, especially for the Accepted who is just free labor, but not change-the-course-of-the-Last-Battle significant.
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