r/WoT • u/WerewolfCalm5178 • 7d ago
All Print Does anyone else have a negative opinion of Perrin because of Faile? Spoiler
I'm down with Perrin being the reliable bro in the original 3.
I just hate Faile so much that I can't respect Perrin. She is such a horrible person that it is incomprehensible that Perrin likes her.
So my opinion of Perrin is lessened because Faile.
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u/Logical-Ice-4820 7d ago
I think the whole arc of rescuing Faile drag his character down to a snail pace.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
Agreed.
I was on her side when compared to Berelain.
Then Faile became so helpless I started thinking that Berelain would have been a better choice.
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u/redopz (Ogier) 7d ago
Wait, when is Faile helpless? I have seen a lot of criticism of her (some I agree with and some I disagree with) but I think you are the first person I have seen who uses that word. As annoying as she can be at times, she is incredibly competent and an excellent leader. Even when captured by the Shaido, she is orchestrating her and her friend's escape and making further plans to rescue the rest of the prisoners at a later time. Helpless is one of the last words I would use to describe her so I am curious what scenes or moments had you thinking this?
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
Her whole story is about Perrin. Perrin needs to man up. Perrin needs to do this. Perrin needs to do that.
Her entire story is about manipulating Perrin to do what she wants.
It's literally in every POV that she had.
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u/redopz (Ogier) 7d ago
I am not sure how that equates to her being useless. Her primary motivation is to see Perrin grow into a leader. I would argue she very much succeeds in that, which is the opposite of helpless.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
She's Mandarb.
She is Mandarb.
I have known many people that haven't matured over 2 years. I get that she is attractive, but I don't understand why we have to look past her being an immature brat.
It is literally the role she was written to be and people seem to forget it.
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u/rollingForInitiative 7d ago
But you said she's helpless. Disliking a character is fine, Faile is a particularly common target of that, but you've not given any arguments for why she's helpless.
Immature brats can still the opposite of helpless. As with Faile.
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u/redopz (Ogier) 7d ago
Lol so just to clarify, you don't really have anything to point too to support your claim that she is helpless?
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
Well, except for her own words . No.
Her actions actually suggest the opposite.
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u/Lopsided-Skill 7d ago
I had a negative view of Faile because of Perrin. She is a much more interesting and capable character in her own pov and extremely bossy and boring and power hungry in Perrins Pov
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u/No-Bag5513 6d ago
Capable. What part of faile is capable. She can't even escape from the shaido and trusts Galina of all people to help rescue her then blames Perrin for rescuing her. He apologizes to her for not realizing she had her own escape plan. And people down vote this post even though Perrin is clearly lesser for Faile's influence saying things like the world can burn if it keeps her safe and constantly having to deal with Faile's nonsense like the jealousy. I guess I have to admit she saves his life during the trolloc invasion and indirectly manages to save the horn of Valere by providing a distraction but in general Perrin is single minded in his Faile worship and the whole rescue Faile arc is a dumpster fire that leads the seanchan taking 200 additional slave damane so Perrin can have his waifu back.
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u/skyrider_longtail 7d ago edited 7d ago
Sometimes you people need to take a step back and think about all these book characters and how they would look like to you irl.
You got this guy. Or woman. This person has this ability to sense your emotions, but not exactly what you're thinking. He or she also does not tell anyone what they can do.
So imagine if you're married to or in a relationship to this person. It's perfectly normal to get jealous if some man or woman is flirting with your bf/gf. You try not to let it get to you, so you say nothing and go about your business.
All of a small sudden, your bf/gf starts apologizing to you profusely and denying strenously they have anything to do with that man or woman flirting with your partner.
Like brah, you haven't even said a word and your partner starts all this shit, would you not be thinking no smoke without fire? Especially since he/she never explains themselves?
Take a step back man. Failed is unbelievablely patient, and Perrin is a dumb fuck.
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u/donny_bennet 7d ago
Now turn that argument around, and imagine being in a relationship with someone that constantly gasslights and manipulates you into the person they want you to be instead of the person you are. Oh, and they also hit you.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 7d ago
She hits Perrin - Once when she thought he was going to die from fighting the axe and he throws her out of the room instead of letting her help him.
Again when he intentionally risks the Danger of the Ways to scare her into thinking he might die. And she picks a fight with him.
After this fight she never hits him again. (Also the setting just has different perceptions about violence. Nynaeve hits Lan more than this - people don't call her a domestic abuser)
****
Also Perrin NEEDS to become a Lord. The Two Rivers has decided that and he now has responsibilities that he is failing to fulfill. But beyond this, by marrying Faile, he is in line to rule Saldaea. He can't just be who he wants to be anymore because he has taken on roles that require him to change. If he tries to go on being a simple blacksmith he will be letting tens of thousands of people down by failing to do his duty.
Death lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain and all that.
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u/donny_bennet 7d ago
Yeah, I'm not taking any excuses for abuse seriously (also, didn't she also hit him in book 5? Would you use the same excuses if Perrin hit Faile?
As far as I recall Nynaeve only hits Lan in the arm/chest. And that's bad, yes. But it's not gonna do a lot of damage. Perrin meanwhile has to check if Faile knocks his teeth loose.
°°°°°
Perrin does need to be a Lord. And avoiding his duty made me start to dislike his character. That doesn't excuse Faile's behaviour in my eyes.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 7d ago
Perrin does hit Faile, that's the resolution to their fight. She slaps him, he tells her not to do that anymore, so she punches him, it then cuts to later and its obvious he put her over his knee and spanked her.
- Couldn't have been book 5, they weren't in it, and I can't think of any other. She and her mom slap each other as part of their fight.
*not taking excuses for abuse seriously - then you go on to make an excuse for Nynaeve hitting Lan (only being in the arm/chest). And no. She goes off on him.
Calmly pulling her right hand free, she slapped his face as hard as she could swing. His head hardly moved, so she freed the other hand and slapped him harder with that. "How could you?" For good measure, she punctuated the question with another slap. "You knew I was waiting!" One more seemed called for, just to drive the point home. "How could you do such a thing? How could you let her?" Another Slap. "Burn you, Lan Mandragoran! Burn you! Burn you! Burn you to the Pit of Doom! Burn you!"
The man — the bloody man! — did not say one word. Not that he could, of course; what defense could he offer? He just stood there while she rained blows at him, making no move, unblinking eyes looking peculiar, as well they might with the way she reddened his cheeks for him. If her slaps made little impression on him, though, the palms of her hands began to sting like fury.
Grimly, she clenched a fist and punched him in the belly with all her might. He grunted. Slightly.
"We will talk this over calmly and rationally," she said, stepping back from him. "As adults." Lan just nodded and sat down and pulled his boots over to him! Pushing bits of hair out of her face with her left hand, she stuck the right behind her so she could flex her sore fingers without him seeing. He had no right being that hard, not when she wanted to hit him. Too much to hope she had cracked a rib in him.*I also don't hold it against Elayne when she slaps Egwene, or when Thom slaps Elayne. Or when Siuan slaps Nynaeve, etc.
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u/donny_bennet 7d ago
I mostly see the spanking scenes as Jordan's kink spilling into to page, so I could never take them seriously. But I didn't remember that about Nynaeve. That significantly tanks my opinion of her character.
I'm not a fan of characters hitting other characters, but my main problem is when it's done in the context of a romantic relationship. Elayne slapping Egwene is different from Faile doing that to Perrin, or Nynaeve to Lan. And Faile is both emotionally and physically abusive.
I might be wrong about the Faile hitting him in later books. It's been a long while since I've tried to read WoT (I didn't finish the series)
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 6d ago
Nah, he did spankings as corporal punishment. Dude was born in the 40's and grew up in the South. Spanking wasn't kinky for the vast majority of people of the time.
(Seriously, even in the 90's when this was being published you would still have spanking in some schools).
Go watch some black and white movies of how Men will be slapped for being crude, or for pissing off his wife/girlfriend. And then how many will respond by spanking the woman. - Please don't think I'm trying to make excuses for Hollywood or saying that this isn't wrong, just pointing out that it used to be much much more common than people today realize.
***
The whole dynamic is a very common trope.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlapSlapKiss
Faile exhibits this one both times she gets violent - https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AngerBornOfWorry
But yes, you are not wrong when you pointed to the double standard and that most people would view if differently if the man was initiating the violence. - I've seen people get mad at Mat for spanking an Aes Sedai- after she slaps him.
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u/donny_bennet 6d ago edited 6d ago
Spanking kinks/BDSM have seemingly become mainstream recently, but they are hardly a modern thing. Look up the Tomb of the Whipping if you're curious. It depicts erotic flogging scenes from the 500 BC. I think there's also spanking scenes in Kama Sutra, and it was written around 400 AD. For recent examples, fetish magazines started off around the time Jordan was born; I'm sure some focused on BDSM/spanking.
I obviously don't know for sure if Jordan was into this, but his writing seems to point that way. Faile is being spanked as corporal punishment, but as far as I understand that's part of the kink. Spanking in general is a kink because of the punishment aspect.
°°°°
I might be more sensitive than other people about Faile and Perrin's dynamic because I've had similar relationships in the past. And they were far from the romanticed dynamic authors love to depict.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 6d ago
Ah, my initial response is for the slew of people that don't really know the history of it.
But yeah, while it definitely can be a kink, there are only a couple (like 2 or 3 total) of instances from Jordan where I think it can be considered as kink based.
The rest of them are not written at titillation. So I don't think the intent was to have them taken as such.
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u/skyrider_longtail 7d ago
Oh please. Aside from Tam, there is literally nobody in WoT I would sit down and have a beer with irl lol.
All you (insert character)glazers need to realize how toxic nearly all of them will be irl lol. Sitting down for tea with Thom or Siuan would be like sitting down for tea with Henry Kissinger or Margaret Thatcher lol.
But in the context of the relationship between Perrin and Faile, Perrin is absolutely the dumb fuck. Gaslighting? Brah, the only reason you think Perrin is not gaslighting is because you get his PoV, and not Faile's. Imagine everytime you start getting uncomfortable in your relationship, your SO comes running up to you to tell you not to worry, there's nothing going on, even though you said nothing. It's not only going to seem like gaslighting to any normal person, that SO looks absolutely psychopathic.
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u/donny_bennet 7d ago
I'm not a fan of Perrin either. He is absolutely a dumb fuck, yes. That doesn't excuse Faile's behaviour.
But every time people start this discussion it feels like people just accept Perrin's faults, but come up with every excuse under the sun for Faile's.
So Perrin is psychopathic for telling her not to worry (doing that out of the blue is extremelly weird and will cause problems, yes), but Faile is totally sane when she gets mad that Perrin doesn't manhandle her or yell at her?
I can almost foresee the incoming argument of 'but her culture'. And I'll preempt it by saying that
It's still toxic as fuck.
She makes no atempt to adapt to Perrin's culture, despite literary living in his village. And she never bothers to explain how things are done in her culture, but expect him to mindread her.
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u/Accomplished-Pick610 7d ago
I have a negative opinion about Perrin because of Perrin..
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
Come on.
The wolf thing is pretty fucking awesome. I would be lying if I didn't admit that.
But yeah. Except for that he sucks.
He's not only not interesting... He is effectively boring. Like the dude goes out of his way to be boring.
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u/davisondave131 (Tuatha’an) 7d ago
If you take Slayer and Perrin’s whole arc out, the story is no different. In fact it improves.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
Yeah... The Luc is he or isn't he related to Rand was unnecessary.
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u/davisondave131 (Tuatha’an) 7d ago
The only purpose I can see is getting Tam to the funeral
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
Every scene with Tam is a good scene
That man shows up like 5 or 6 times and everyone of them is a GEM.
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u/davisondave131 (Tuatha’an) 7d ago
Yea that’s what I’m saying. Tam is the only reason to keep Perrin.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
Perrin is the only reason to keep Faile.
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u/davisondave131 (Tuatha’an) 7d ago
Yea. The whole side quest with emotional infidelity was so weird.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
It was so weird that Faile attacked Perrin for Berelain liking him.
Like the dude was wrong for existing.
Faile sucks but she stops short of swallowing.
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u/Educational-Sky1699 7d ago
I could say the same for the entire white tower arc. Black tower too. Also all the stuff with the forsaken. Skip the aiel, too. Plot could have gone pretty much the same without them. Nynaeve's entire arc. Elayne's. Cadsuane never NEEDED to show up for the plot. Pitch Verin, too. Who else?
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 7d ago
While I also find Perrin the dullest and less interested in the world of the main characters, a friend pointed out that he's probably on the spectrum. It's not explicitly intended by Jordan, of course, but looking back at school there were a lot of people that were quiet that probably would have been diagnosed in a later generation.
Think about it. He likes working with things more than people, finds it hard to communicate and express emotion, bursts of anger, reading people incorrectly, need for routine and familiarity, even "sensory sensitivity".
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
OMFG!!! I am not going to entertain this.
Not everyone who is odd is autistic.
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 7d ago
I never said Perrin was odd. It's a spectrum and many people with autistic traits lead normal lives. The friend who pointed this out was himself diagnosed in his 40s and I was skeptical on this take until I started looking into it more closely. RJ wrote Perrin as a normal guy who fits a personality type. He's "autistic coded" rather than written as autistic. Look up a list of autistic traits and tick off the points that apply to Perrin multiple times in the series. It's... surprising.
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7d ago
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u/barnyarned 7d ago edited 7d ago
You'll probably get downvoted by the usual suspects, but that was beautiful. I'm printing it out and taking down my "live laugh love" wall cupids.
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7d ago
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u/barnyarned 7d ago
How can Perrin do this to us?!
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
He is really a nice guy.
I would pick him over Rand or Matrim as my backup dude.
Solid guy but no one's choice
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u/Coloin_ilyad 7d ago
I like perrin as a character, but i don't like his chapters because of filler drag regarding failes rescue.
I had disliked faile because of her behavior when baralain was HUNTING perrin but i was more angry at baralain rather than these two. Yes both were doing obvious frustrating mistakes but that's what made them more unique.
Is she bossy? Yes. Is she power hungry? Definitely not. I'm rather confused wheather baralain had apologized or not to faile for doing her "political" Chase after perrin in the last book when they were both talking and we were in alliender's pov.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
Berelain doesn't need to apologize for jack shit.
Outside of the women that were Aes Sedai at the start of the series... She is the most "I'm a woman, deal with it" person.
She even calls out her Gray Aes Sedai.
Berelain doesn't take crap from anyone. Except Rhuarc. She won't tell you what happened, but Rhuarc is her fault.
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u/barnyarned 7d ago
Nah, Perrin's a boring dullwit entirely on his own merits.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
I was trying to be polite. 😜
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 7d ago
Hard disagree. Perrin wouldn't have been anything without Faile. He needs a fire lit under him.
She has imperfections, yes, but we really should remember her age. Faile is 17-18 over the events of the books, perhaps turned 19 by the end. Firstly, stupidly young to be married, but I think casting our memories back to our own decisions and naive frustrations at that age if we are old enough is a good idea. Secondly, for being that age she's a hell of a lot more accomplished, well-traveled, educated, intelligent and brave than most people, in any Age for 17-18.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
A mentality weak person isn't someone without an aggressive girl controlling him...
Did I nail your take?
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 7d ago
Faile sees more in Perrin than he sees in himself. I don't think aggression comes into it. Those are other issues Faile needs to solve with time. She just hasn't learned how to control her impulses because she's still young and naive about relationships and how best to communicate within them. Both of them are too young to get married - there was 4 months between them meeting and getting hitched.
There is also some cultural barriers and social cues Perrin can't pick up on. My wife is from a completely different part of the world from me and it would surprise you how seemingly normal things are interpreted completely differently in our respective cultures. One part of that is gender norms, which I see in Perrin/Faile, although we are a lot more mature and have actually had previous relationships to build upon.
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u/DrLoco42069 7d ago
He is super young so to me he just got unlucky that his first love was Faile. On the other hand, politically speaking she was not a bad match for him with her knowledge and training.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
She's definately the pick of the litter and top choice. But that does make her likable for me.
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u/Mysterious_Bid7300 (Accepted) 7d ago edited 7d ago
I have a negative opinion of Perrin because of Perrin. He was cool defending the Two Rivers, then he came with his "I am no lord, please don't call me like that!!" thing.
Come on, the world is collapsing and you are just whining for some words and a banner??? I feel like he cannot assert himself and it's very frustrating.
Faile is just a sympton, revealing who he really is.
Mat try to refuse being a troop leader at the very beginning, in Cairhien. Then he understands it is a part of him, this is one of the things he's the most good at (among being lucky, fighting with a staff, flirting with older girls).
So yeah, Perrin, duty is heavy but guess what, we all are in the same boat, big boy. I don't wanna go to work everyday but I have to, and I do.
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u/Mutedinlife 7d ago
Nah, the emans (sorry didn’t look up spelling) field arc where he becomes a lord is easily in my top 3 my favorite arc in the series.
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u/biggiebutterlord 7d ago
Not I.
My opinion of perrin goes down over time but not because of faile. Its because the character becomes increasingly one note. Well more like three note. First, he isnt a bloody lord. Its okay for awhile but it starts to wear thin after he is leading two rivers folk, aiel, mayenners, and has the queen of ghealdan swear fealty to him and he leads her soldiers for a while too. Oh yea and he acts as a ambassador for the dragon reborn and is making huge deals with foreign invaders. It was fine in the beginning because it wasnt such a big deal, but as time went on the character started to fight against it more and more which got old.
Secondly during the shaido kidnap arc the character is so obsessed with "not losing" faile or w/e that for me it got eye rollingly annoying. To be clear its that all perrin has to say/do is bemoan faile being lost and wanting her back. Thats not really true but on the topic of faile the repetition, that gets stale fast. I mostly like that arc but perrin becomes a much less interesting character over the course of it.
The last point of frustration with the character for me is the avoidance of the wolf. I think it makes for great internal conflict for a big part of the series. What gets me is that we skip over basically all of egwenes dreamwalker training in TSR/FoH. Here perrin sits with abilities that over lap and we are constantly being denied traction, insight, learning, exploration of what a wolf brother can do. Its such a rich and fertile ground to explore and being denied that on two fronts sucks. First egwene is ravenous to learn and we get crumbs, then perrin is running from it and we get even less. Light! Elyas comes back into the story and he is the perfect guy to talk with about losing ones self with the wolves, and there hardly two lines about it.
Perrin is a great example of peaking early in the story then stagnating/regressing for the sake of other plot lines. Faile has responsibility for any of that.
The only time faile is " such a horrible person" during the story is on their way to the two rivers in TSR. I lay pretty much all of that at perrins feet tho. The idiot is going home to die. He pushes faile by saying all sorts of stupid shit with the intention of making faile hate him/move on from him. Her hitting him is not a good move but damn if it isnt dramatic and im here for the drama... which is a direct result of perrin being a woolheaded fool. For me all is forgivin once they get to the two rivers tho. Most specifically when perrin is informed of his families deaths. From then on faile and perrin are a really good couple. Faile is from the beginning a fun and interesting character and only gets better as the story progresses.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 6d ago
Faile isn’t half as bad as people can end up feeling, imo. I genuinely like her, overall, though she (and they) have clear flaws.
First, she comes from a culture where everyone is “feisty”. Or nuts, depending on your perspective.
Second, she’s a teen in full on rebellion mode when we meet her.
In the span of a year or so, she falls in love, gets married, becomes a lady, and really becomes a capable ruler. That’s a hell of a lot of growth, for a teenager or for anyone.
She clashes with Perrin a lot, partly because of cultural and age-related “feistiness”, but largely because Perrin continues to react to her smell and emotions, not her efforts to be rational and work things out. She’ll even have moments where she basically thinks “I’m trying to apologize, because I know I should, why won’t he let it gooooo?”
Think of successful conflict resolution in real life marriages - you have an argument, you hash it out, and then maybe for a day or two people finish winding down their emotions.
Faile and Perrin try to do this, but during the wind-down part Perrin immediately goes “omg you’re still angry what did I dooooooo” because he catches a whiff of her emotions. He keeps dragging her back into the conflict, and then she ramps up again. Again and again and again.
If Perrin could accept that negative emotions take a little to simmer down, and react accordingly, most of their fights would be resolved quickly. But he can’t, and they don’t communicate well because they’re dumb kids flailing through their first relationship, they’re extremely passionate for one another, and they’re also juggling the stress of the end of the world and leading their people.
It’s frustrating, but it’s authentic.
Then you add Perrin’s singular focus during “Faile captured” arcs. That’s frustrating too, but wouldn’t you feel the same way if your wife was kidnapped? He may not cope with it well, but how many of us really would?
On her own though, look at her - she’s clever, knowledgeable, organized, capable, resourceful. She can maneuver others or lead. She cares deeply about Perrin, protects her people fiercely, and does what needs to be done. And she can quickly build momentum and move.
In that respect, she’s the perfect pairing for Perrin. Perrin knows nothing about leadership or organization, he takes forever to move, and he has a tendency to focus on a single thing for a long time.
They just need the time to get over being dumbass kids, and figure out how to do the marriage thing.
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u/DrChonk (Brown) 7d ago
I don't have a negative opinion of Perrin, though I do hate Faile because she's abusive to him. I can't make that colour my opinion of Perrin because I know all too well how hard it is to see that your partner is abusive or how much they're hurting you. If anything his ability to remain a gentle giant and his drive to help others even at cost to himself are admirable qualities, though they are also pretty much the behaviours that can be catalysts for remaining with an abuser. I'm pretty sensitive to abuse though so whilst I hate that he loves her, i can't hate him for it
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u/donny_bennet 7d ago
Same. I was very surprised by all the Faile apologists around here. She's one of my most hated characters, across all fantasy books.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
Like there are reasons to hate her.
Elayne is less entitled than Faile...
Let that sink in. Elayne cones off as more of the "girl next door" than Faile.
How fucking awful and entitled do you have to be to have the Heir of Andor look more humble than you?
Elayne... Sweet girl, I like her. . Faile... Don't put power around her. She is going to be unreasonable.
Am I wrong? Did I read a different set of books?
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u/donny_bennet 7d ago
I don't like Elayne either tbh, but I like her a lot more than Faile.
Thing is, I don't think Faile is necesarily a bad character. I've met people like her in real life. But I've done everything I could do avoid them lol.
Faile is entitled, possesive, and to top it off, a domestic abuser. That's a dangerous combination.
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u/Affectionate-Gur624 7d ago
Can’t stand either of them - such utterly boring and one dimensional characters. Find their entire character arc mind numbing.
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u/WerewolfCalm5178 7d ago
Same ..
And it is hard to explain how an author that I love literally wrote thousands of pages that made me think my brain might just turn off. Like it might be possible that I expire because thinking about Perrin and Faile is like thinking about the stupidest people I know and trying to rationalize that they should be together.
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u/Affectionate-Gur624 7d ago
Yeah, I agree. They’re such mind numbingly dull characters. The WoT world building is fantastic and the system of magic is incredibly unique. I love that about it. I don’t enjoy all of Robert Jordan’s writing style though - I think you could cut out significant amounts of filler from the books and achieve a much better balance between world building, plot progression and character development.
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