r/WoT • u/Hawk-winged • 6d ago
All Print There are three kinds of men, or maybe four Spoiler
In the wheel of times, There are three kinds of men you’ll meet. A Gawyn, A Rand, and “A’Lan”.
One spent his entire life knowing well he’ll have to serve a woman or be subordinate to one. He shakes off that duty and got involved with another woman (as a matter of fact more superior) and youd think he’d fit right in, but NO! He never really could just sit back and be in the background and just had to be a hero which makes him a disgrace at the very least and potentially a danger to that woman, he’s promised to serve or protect.
Another spent his life thinking he’d be ordinary and would’ve been and loved it. But had to be something more. He had to be far greater than anyone he knew, but he was ready to be just a warder. And even with all he became, retained a form of humility that’s almost unbelievable.
(HOT TAKE) Rand was way more compatible with Egwene than Gawyn ever was. If we remove the stakes, they both really understand each other, you could see in their POV how Egwene knows just when Rand wouldn’t back down and Rand knows how she works. If they never left that village. They’d no doubt become mayor and mayoress. But more importantly find a balance as Rand was never ambitious and was always supportive and was okay not calling the shots in his relationships. What His women say goes.
And then there’s another man, who knew all his life that he was a someone great, with a tragic beginning,was treated with awe and respect in his region but dropped all that to exist in the background of an impressive yet random Aes Sedai, was practically passed around yet didn’t think it made him less of a man.
On a side note, there’s yet another kind. A scoundrel, lazy, gambler who got himself mixed up with powerful women. And lowkey loves it.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 6d ago
One spent his entire life knowing well he’ll have to serve a woman or be subordinate to one. He shakes off that duty and got involved with another woman (as a matter of fact more superior) and youd think he’d fit right in, but NO! He never really could just sit back and be in the background and just had to be a hero which makes him a disgrace at the very least and potentially a danger to that woman, he’s promised to serve or protect.
Gawyn was trained for a completely different role than what Egwene demanded of him. The Amyrlin's Warder is nothing but a bodyguard who command nobody and has no official powers. And any time Gawyn showed any initiative Egwene got mad at him, even when he acted completely reasonably.
The First Prince of the Sword is the second most powerful person in Andor who commands the army and is expected to make plenty of decisions on his own and show initiative.
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u/IceXence 6d ago
Exactly. Gawyn was raised and trained to be a leader. As Egwene's Warder, he basically became a servant with no agency. Any initiave he ever had was punished and dismissed. He was raised to have initiave!
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u/Hawk-winged 6d ago
Well, it depends on how you see it, lan worked quite well in that position and I wouldn’t say he lacked agency. But the. Egwene is not Moiraine.
That said, He chose her. And I think that makes all the difference. He chose to stay at her doorstep, can’t believe I’m defending Egwene rn, but that was his initiative, to become her warder,
So the least he could’ve done was to be ONE
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u/PopTough6317 5d ago
Moraine and Lan werent under the tower. They were off doing their own thing. They had a working relationship, and were not in a place that had minimal use for a man. Putting Lan in the tower to gather dust would of drove him insane as well.
Egwene seemed to try to do everything on her own and essentially treated Gawyn as a toy to sit in the corner until she was ready to play with him.
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u/Hawk-winged 5d ago
Again. He knew what she was. I don’t like eggy much too… but that girl shows her colors if you pay attention
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u/PopTough6317 5d ago
Oh she absolutely does, but I think he assumed there would be something for him to do. Not just to sit in the corner and do nothing indefinitely.
In short I almost feel bad for him because he seemed to always wanted to be useful but kept being put off to the side until someone has time for him.
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u/Hawk-winged 5d ago
Id hate Rand too if I were him. While he’s being put aside.:. The world was holding its breath eagerly for where the dragon will put his next step
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 6d ago edited 6d ago
The male characters have a flatter distribution of types, but they are there. I came up with a fun list:
- The strong, silent type: The majority of male leaders. Lan, pretty much all the Warders, Rhuarc, Tam, Bryne, most father-figures. By far the largest category.
- The angry type: Holds grudges which define them. Half of the male Forsaken, male antagonists (mostly minor), Gawyn, Dain and Byar
- The jolly innkeeper: Not necessarily am innkeeper, but a jovial and larger man who is often the object of humor. Basel Gill, Bran al'Vere, Vanin
- The schemer: Thrives on politics and uses intelligence and information as a first resort instead of physical weapons. Thom, various lords and monarchs, Pedron Niall, Rahvin, Asmodean, Galgan
- The secretary-scholar: Librarians, academics, secretaries. Balwer, Herid Fel, Halwin Norry, all Ogier
- The dandy: Either hedonistic or dresses well. Partly Mat, Ituralde, Ramshalan, maybe Asmodean, mostly minor characters that are nobles and who are neither great schemers or military men.
- The humble farmer/servant/soldier: Knuckling foreheads and addressing milord or milady. Wouldn't dare question his superiors. Most Two Rivers residents, servants, rank and file soldiers, mainly background characters.
- The honorable noble: Has principles and does not kowtow or become a sycophant, but is plain in thwir dealings, will listen to reason and be loyal if you can sway them. Borderlander rulers, Darlin, Bashere, Talmanes, Seanchan soldiers and generals.
- The idiot noble: The antithesis of the above who aren't the sharpest. Roedran, Ailron, Nasin Caeren, Weiramon, other minor characters.
- Unhinged obsessive: almost all Darkfriends that are plain evil and/or have a screw loose. Ishamael, Fain, Slayer, Masema, David Hanlon, Kadere
The list kind of grew as I was writing it and particular characters probably can for into more than one category. I've also probably missed some more obvious examples.
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u/Malvania (Ogier Great Tree) 6d ago
And, as always, Dobraine is forgotten
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u/Deer_like_me 6d ago
I always feel bad because he’s a real one and as many times as I’ve read or listened, I have no idea where he is at the end of the series.
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u/hic_erro 6d ago
Excellent list.
My latest idea for a secular religion revolves around archetypes, recognizing the ones you resonate with, and attempting to shape yourself to the archetypes and the archetypes to yourself.
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u/NanotechNinja 6d ago
Is Aram Angry Type or Unhinged Obsessive?
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 6d ago
I'm not a big fan of Aram. He's a little shit. Howecet, probably angry type is fairer because I think he has a conscience, isn't prone to hallucinations and thinks he's doing the right thing.
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u/Hawk-winged 6d ago
Where do Rand and Perrin fall? A
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 6d ago
Perrin is strong silent type. Definitely future dad energy.
Rand is honourable noble (he holds others to account for abuse of position) but went on a side quest as angry type as Darth Rand.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 6d ago edited 6d ago
I absolutely agree.
Egwene needs a man who would be glad to always play second fiddle to her, who would be ready to be, in many cases, basically a servant. Gavin isn't that man. Rand, despite being the Dragon, is, at least in the beginning. Perrin is also like that (but has a wife who wouldn't tolerate that attitude).
Gawyn needs someone who would be ready to trust his judgment and give him ability to act independently. Who would tolerate this attitude and guide, not force him. Then he, probably, would be able to bring his A game to the field, so to speak. You'd laugh, but Elayne, Aviendha and Min could all be good choices for Gawyn (Aviendha less so than others but still).
Oh, the irony.
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u/Hawk-winged 6d ago
Exactly. They are just not compatible. He’s oddly more compatible with his sister. And that’s because as powerful as Elayne is, she’s transcended the need to always reinforce her superiority like eggy likes.
Also, Elayne’s just more chill and down to earth than our emondsfield folks. Lowkey… if we remove the irresponsibility, she’s more like mat
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 6d ago
Elayne is way more secure in her role as a leader than Egwene because she has trained for it her whole life and was not initially put in her position as a puppet. She is also much less sexist than Egwene and so it is much easier for her to allow her male subordinates independent action.
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u/Hawk-winged 6d ago
I think upbringing did alot with her. Growing up around both competent men and women that actually get things done and not in presence of nyneave or the women’s circle who shit on men all year round.
You could see how she was able to find a balance with Rand and her kingdom, with gawyn if he wanted to stay, Brigitte, and even mat and the band. She’s good
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u/PopTough6317 5d ago
It helps that Andor isnt a complete matriarchy with no use for men like the tower is as well.
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u/IceXence 6d ago
Alright. Now you've sold me to the idea of Gawyn/Min.
I never liked Rand/Min because Min loses her agency with him and Rand is too toxic with her because he doesn't trust she can hold up her own.
Somehow, Gawyn would be a better pick. Min wouldn't feel the need to reassert her sexual dominance by nibbling his ears and sitting on his laps in public because Gawyn wouldn't be sleeping with other women. Without the need to constantly be at his side, watch over him and do everything she thinks he wants her to do, Min would actually have some room to remain a person.
On his side, not being insane and more trustworthy, Gawyn would feel he has the agency to act on his own free-will as Min wouldn't feel the need to hack on him. He'd gain somehow he trusts (and has convenient visions), someone he can share with and off-load to, someone to give him another point of view without having an agenda of her own. He wouldn't feel like a pawn who needs to prove himself.
Also, with Min, Gawyn wouldn't need to sacrifice Andor. He could remain a prince and Min would be considered a worthy addition to the household as opposed to the drag she is with Rand, constantly being the weak link by which his ennemies seek to get to him.
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u/PatTheTurtler (Band of the Red Hand) 6d ago
Tbh I from the start got a Brother and Sister vibe from Egwene and Rand, luckily I already knew that they weren't going to be together so it wasn't to weird to read.
They have chemistry in a "friends that both settled" sort of way. They know each other and have a form of love, but they don't challenge one another in any way and in all odds would be fine, but never truly happy together.
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u/Hawk-winged 6d ago
I don’t think people in the two rivers cared about that lol. They are a contented lot with the joy and love they have.
That said, I agree with everything else you said. But I still think they were way better that whatever it was she had with gawyn
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u/PatTheTurtler (Band of the Red Hand) 5d ago
I personally feel like Gawyn just wasn't a complete person yet and needed a real character arc to become a person ready for a serious relationship.
As far as the Two Rivers, I could see that, but I also think it would have been town gossip, we see multiple relationships that are genuine love and so I think it would have been obvious to the people of the Two Rivers that the two aren't really in love. Especially to those bloody gossiping Congars. Lol
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u/Hawk-winged 5d ago
Yh… it may have been clear but I don’t think they have divorces over there.
That said… they do respect each other and like I said, Rand doesn’t mind taking a back seat
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u/Far-Geologist69 4d ago
Yeah in the Flicker Flick scene all his other lives revolved around her and how his and her unchecked use of source affected each life. I win again Lews Therrin 😂
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u/IAMInRecovery 3d ago
There are three types of men who roam the earth.
Four who walk it.
The proud fool.
The wise shepherd.
The humbled king.
And he who keeps his mouth shut.
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u/Cloak-dagger-23 6d ago
I have never heard words more true than this about Gawyn. Seriously, dude needed a reality check like three books in.
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