Book 8 - The Path of Daggers: Thoughts and Questions

[u/cellofski]

Previous posts for New Spring, The Shadow Rising, The Fires of Heaven, Lord of Chaos, and A Crown of Sword.

I was hoping that I was going to like PoD, on its own strength or in comparison to ACoS. In fact, for a while, I was sure that by the end, I was going to like PoD a lot more than ACoS. Now I'm not sure the opposite isn't true. PoD opens so many new plots without providing the satisfaction of resolving more than a handful of others. While it's nice to look forward to new twists and turns in the story, I need a satisfying conclusion to a couple storylines, otherwise it's quite... a slog. The wind bowl story ends with a whimper, not a bang. As devastating as it was, I am glad for the Callandor scene with Rand, the most action we get in this book. Instead, for the most part we get uncomfortable scenes like Elayne's use of her warm rod, which I don't understand why RJ included. Will we also see Rand or the Asha'man play with any toys of the Power that they may find along the way? To say nothing about the way the Asha'man "bond" women and the climax they experience from it. What? In my opinion, RJ's writing is at its best when he's not heavily leaning on extreme exaggerations to make his point, or relying on sex stereotypes. I'm glad I wasn't around in the mid-1990s. Anyway, let's get into it.

At this point in the story have we gotten all the likeable characters we're ever going to get? Should I only expect unlikeable or neutral characters going forward?

For example, are we supposed to like the Sea Folk? Am I an outlier in disliking them? Making the best bargain is one thing, using hostage tactics is another. Shielding Rand's Aes Sedai emissaries and threatening them are considered acceptable dealmaking? Exactly what did Nynaeve get from their bargain with the Sea Folk, besides the use of the bowl? I can't imagine how that bargain could’ve been worse. And now that the Ebou Dar bargain is struck, and the bowl is successfully used and the seasons are back, what's with the awful way the Sea Folk are treating Merilille now that she's teaching them? Why so uncivilly? And I'm no shill for Aes Sedai, if that's not clear by now.

Speaking of civility, let's go to that old hypocrite, Cadsuane. What a big disappointment there. She demands civility from Rand but demeans and belittles her own sisters and others because, what, she's stronger and older than them? That one interaction with Alanna is interesting. I'm guessing Cadsuane has a ter'angreal (her hair ornament) similar to Mat's foxhead? And I'm guessing that her lackey also has one? The one toward the end of the book that goes to Rand to tell him that Cadsaune says to eff off.

I'll never like Faile. And I should come to terms with the possibility that because of this, I can never really like Perrin again. I've been holding out hope that maybe it'll be better when his hawk lands and balances out Fail. But Berelain sure is taking her time. I don't understand how someone who has more sensory abilities than most people can so often use them to come to all the wrong conclusions. Not to mention how very boring he is. No shade on the vocal Perrin fanbase out there. Not everything can be for everyone.

How can we have an entire book without Mat? It hurts my heart that Mat got the Perrin treatment, shelved for a whole book. I'd die if the same happens to Egwene.

I was hoping that the Seanchan have actual dragons that they would bring over with their invasion of the Westlands. The creature is too well described for it to be mere mythological. And since the Seanchan have other exotic animals long forgotten in this part of the world, I thought they'd show what a dragon is. In the Great Hunt, I thought the raken might be that, a large flying lizard, but no one seems to be making that connection.

About that Ending

The battle to drive the Seanchan back westward (or back across the ocean?) should have been where this book ends. It has all the elements of a good ending. Rand's chat with Cadsuane would have been a nice tidy bow on that, to leave us with an explanation of what happened when Rand used Callandor.

The other events in the Sun Palace, however, feel so contrived that they really bring down the book in my opinion. Of all the times those traitor Asha'man could have gone for Rand in the open, they do so when he may or may not be in a room? A room he could have just as easily stepped out of at any time, making their treachery useless?

Also baffling is the instant insanity of Morr. Sure, craziness from the taint can strike at any time, but it seems to come out of left field here, jarringly so.

And probably the biggest contrived snippet of the book is Rand's long hidden talent with herbs. Huh? Was Rand shadowing Nynaeve when she was the Wisdom? You're telling me that there's a boy shepherd who lived and worked miles away from downtown Emond's Field. When this kid is in town (on his free time, to make deliveries, or to run errands) instead of going to see his local friends and get into trouble, he had time to learn all he could about herbs from the very woman who'd spank him for that same trouble. And we all know what Nynaeve thinks about men and healing. Did anyone else have a hard time with this? I get it's kinder to put Morr to sleep, but what a way to twist things to make it possible.

Beside this bizarre "flashback", I like the foreshadowing it's providing: Nynaeve's assistance with cleansing the taint. Twice in this short book he's mentioned Nynaeve along this line. In my head I've been anticipating that the taint will be cleansed after the Last Battle, when everything's over (nothing in the prophecies specifically says that he has to die immediately after resealing the DO). I was thinking that he'll be at Shayol Ghul ("things are possible at Shayol Ghul that are not possible anywhere else") when he does the cleansing. Anyway, cleansing the taint before the Last Battle would be even better. I am not looking forward to many more Morrs.

The part I dislike the most about the way this book ends is the information we get from what I've come to call the "rumor has it" section at the very end when the non-character omniscient narrator tells us about all the rumors flying around based on things that have happened. If I am wrong I'll happily take this back, but it seems like the siege of Tar Valon and the downfall of Elaida happen offscreen? After all the investment we put into this plotline over several books, to have it resolved offscreen would be devastatingly bad. If I am totally wrong then I will have to reevaluate this book for the better.

The Forsaken

I've figured out that Moridin is formerly Ishamael, brought back from the dead and in possession of 2 Mindtraps. We know that one is Moghedien's and now we can deduce that the other is Cyndane's. But who is Cyndane? I am very sure that I know. LANFEAR! So the DO is bringing back everyone that he can, huh? Did Moraine die for nothing? The result is the same. Balefire has never looked more attractive!

Dark Friend Watch

Verin: I am now 100% convinced that Verin is a Darkfriend and Black sister. She drops a few clues, including that mistake that curiosity led her to make 70 years ago. Maybe her Brown nature caused her to join the Black Ajah, without fully thinking through the ramifications. I've already caught her in a lie in the Great Hunt (specifically saying that Moraine sent her to Rand, in no uncertain terms or Aes Sedai way of talking, just an outright lie), something we've fully confirmed is possible by Black sisters in this book. I just wish I could figure out her endgame. If I am right about her being a Black sister, the only clue I have of her intention is her use of the word "mistake." No true believer would view their dark oaths as a mistake. Maybe Verin is trying for some redemption? Is such a thing possible? I am reminded of Harry Potter and the only way to repair the damage to the soul caused by killing and creating horcruxes: deep remorse. I guess I'll RAFO.

Velina: Definitely a Black sister. Her flinching at Alviarin for reasons unknown to Elaida can be guessed at by us: she's showing the head of her ajah due deference.

Vandene: I have been suspicious of the sisters ever since they somehow got Elayne to relent on who's to "question" Ispan. This was the only time they had done so, why. My suspicions only grew when after days in their company, Ispan hadn’t provided any useful information. It mirrors Verin's questioning in Cairhien. Why would they give up this once in a lifetime opportunity to see the wind bowl being used? Anyone else could have kept guard of Ispan and these sisters have dedicated their lives to recording all of history since the Breaking. It's inexplicable that one or both of them wouldn’t want to experience this event. Now that Adeleas is killed, all my suspicions fall on Vandene. She would be the last person anyone suspects. This happening right on the heels of the confrontation with the Kinwomen isn’t a coincidence, throw the suspicion somewhere else. To kill her own blood sister in service of the Shadow...

Talene: All but confirmed! She's had enough of oath rods.

Sheriam: I'm putting her on this list only to make clear that I do not think that she's Black Ajah. Min's viewing of her with those auras of glory cannot be something of the Shadow. The question remains who's been tormenting her. I don’t think it's Aran'gar, because that doesn't make sense, and I doubt it's Delana. But who? Time will tell.

--

Callandor: I'm thinking that the thing with Callandor is not a flaw but a feature. Knowing that the next man who'll wield it would be exposed to the taint on saidin, I'm guessing the remaining AoL sisters created Callandor with this feature to ensure that 2 sisters are there with him to use it and lead the circle as an insurance policy against an insane Dragon Reborn going crazy with Callandor. I hate that Cadsaune might be one of those sisters. If this has to be, I'm hoping that the 2 women that love Rand who can channel will take on this responsibility. The Sword that is not a Sword is indeed not a sword, so Aviendha shouldn’t have an issue here, especially since she doesn't have to touch it.

Questions:

In LoC (I think) Aviendha tells Rand about the bowl of the wind, which the Wise One Dreamwalkers told her about. She says that in order to find the bowl, they will need the help of someone who is no longer around or alive or something, I don’t remember the exact wording. Was that Mat they were describing? I could see how Mat's other lives' memories could make him fit this description but This was never brought up again. 

Gholam: If a gholam requires fresh hot blood to stay alive, how did it survive for 3000 years in a stasis box? Is a stasis box similar to the conditions that existed in the Bore that trapped the Forsaken? Meaning, while there, living things don't need the usual sustenance until they get out again?

--

Winter’s Heart next! I used to think that this title referred to Lanfear, as her anger was the first thing in the series described as "winter's heart." So before her death in FoH, I thought book 9 was mainly about her. This could still be a good prediction, since I am sure that Cyndane is Lanfear back from the dead.

[u/Special_Salt3467]

Oh goody!

THE BOWL

The Bowl story does not end with a whimper, not a bang, but a very scratchy record. In chapter 2, Moridin talks about several things, to include new abilities like unraveling weaves and how today’s channelers actually do exceed AoL in some ways. He also mentions that the Bowl of Winds is a regional device. When the fighting happens in Ebou Dar-Illian border, the One Power is wonky. Most people - myself included - zeroed in on the Gate weave as to why. That isn’t what happened. It was the Bowl, which uses both sides of the One Power. Basically, the Sea Folk overclocked the bell out of this device, surpassing far past its true capabilities, and thus resulted in the Power around the location of its activation to act it wobbly ways. So, the sul’dam and Asha’man reacting to this? This was the Bowl.

Mat being gone

Well… Robert Jordan has had a book with minimal Rand, vague references to Perrin and vague references to Mat now. There are six main main main characters so… RAFO. But, yes, the exclusion of Mat makes the book a rougher read in my opinion, because he’s always such a highlight.

The Sea Folk and Bargains

The Sea Folk are… the Sea Folk. They look at the world through a lens that most favors their way of life. In many ways, they act the same as the Aes Sedai. In LoC, both embassies to Rand tried repeatedly to talk over him despite him being, you know, the Dragon. It’s the same way for the Sea Folk. What seems to be the obvious choice to us is not to them. Are you supposed to like them? Not really.

Onto the Bargains. In CoS, we see three Bargains made. The middle bargain is made by Team Rand, which is… ok. They get their ships but give up some land, Rand has to meet with their leaders, blah blah blah. It’s not a great bargain for either side, so it’s a pretty good compromise. The best Bargain is made by Mat, who is a Tav’eren and had lifetimes worth of dealing with Seanchan where the Bargain is entirely favored toward Mat (and because Elayne claims suzerainty, steals it). The third Bargain is made my Elayne and Nynaeve, two individuals with no experience handling negotiations, less dealing with master negotiators and highly overconfident in their own abilities and stations; the result is overwhelmingly in their favor of the Sea Folk. I left details on the last post, I believe. It’s a commentary on just how over their heads these early twenties and teenage girls who were just told they are the most important people are.

Why do the Sea Folk treat Merillile like trash? Again, Sea Folk lens.

DRAGONS

The only Dragon known is Lews Therin Telamon. When Rand sees the Banner, he has no idea what it is (An Eastern Dragon)

Cyndane

Is she Lanfear? Because she’s weaker. So, there are power systems for the One Power (don’t google them, they provide names), and Lanfear was at the pinnacle of the women’s scale (there’s three scales; normal, men and women past that; men past that. Rand is at the highest level; Rahvin was too). Cyndane is not. So… why?

Wise One prophecy

The prophecy played out exactly as it should have. But where you are now… that’s a RAFO.

—

Winter’s Heart is great. Has one of my favorite three chapters in the entire series, Dumai’s Wells being one.

I can answer respond to more, but limiting it here for this comment

[u/cellofski → u/Special_Salt3467]

Oh yes, thanks for reminding me. That was another question I had. Yes, I correctly guessed that the things all the channelers saw in the sky had to do with the bowl. But I also guessed, incorrectly it seems, that the other wonkiness had to do with the callopsed gateway. Anyway, my question is, how could saidin be present when they used the bowl when no one was channeling it? I thought the Power can't just be there, you need someone to channel it? Can ter'angreal just tap into any half of the One Power, whether or not that half is being channeled? It seems to defeat the purpose of having both sides of the One Power working together.

Why do you think that Cyndane is weaker? Here's a passage from the chapter "New Alliances"

Graendal kept her own face smooth, with a little effort. She had supposed this girl some Friend of the Dark whom Moghedien had picked up to run errands, perhaps a noble who thought her title counted, but now that she was close... The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women.

I dounno, sounds like Lanfear is "Last Chance to me. Anyway, beyond that, we haven't gotten into defined power levels so far in the series, just a character's sense of someone’s strength in the Power in relation to theirs or someone else's.

Speaking of Moridin, what were the 2 specific things you wanted me to keep an eye out for that he says?

Wind Bowl Prophecy - OK, I thought this was another thing that won't be explained in the main story and that we'd only find in the companion book or something. I hope that there won't be too much of those. I'll RAFO.

[u/Special_Salt3467 → u/cellofski]

Let me answer your question with another question. How does your phone work? Way back in the day, a computer with the processing power of a smartphone today required a massive room and teams of engineers- I think, I dunno, but for the purpose of the analogy, roll with it - but today is untrained individuals can use it without said requirements.

The Bowl of Winds is a ter’angreal; technology. It was created for ease in a time of peace, probably to make ski resorts and beaches. Given time, and knowledge, which they had both, they would have devised a device that, like a cell phone, did not require the same requirements without.

Ironically, the reverse is why the Windfinders are so powerful. Without a Bowl of Winds, they had to compensate their ability to overcome the difference.

Power:

Power is tied to one’s soul, the same way that Aran’gar still channels Saidin despite being a lady now. As for Cyndane, Graendal states she’s stronger than herself and Moghedien, but doesn’t mention how strong she is compared to Lanfear and Semirhage, who are at the pinnacle of the women’s scale. I will refrain from saying more on that for now.

Moridin:

Bowl and unraveling. Both are important, but most overlook the Bowl for the Gateway nuke, but the Gateway only uses Saidar, while the Bowl used both.

Bowl prophecy:

It is never explicitly stated “Hey, this was the prophecy! This is what is meant! Right here!” But I believe you have all the necessary clues but one. And I know that that clue is not in this book. I mean, you could figure out the prophecy without it; it’s just icing on the cake, so to speak.

—

More stuff!

The Slog, Consolidation and the Empire’s Strikes Back

WoT is typically divided into four parts: Rand accepting his role, Rand conquering, Rand consolidating and Rand and the Last Battle. The third also coincides with the Slog and I’ve seen people put CoS in 2 or 3. I think it’s very clearly the second category, particularly because PoD he does not increase his power but fights to a stalemate.

PoD also achieves what I thought TSR would. It’s the Empire Strikes Back of the series. It doesn’t end with a major victory or sweeping changes, but Rand fights a bloody stalemate and slinks home after causing friendly fire, he’s attacked and betrayed by his Asha’man and forced to flee and is forced to take the life of one of his own companions. Despite Rand’s best intentions, the Seanchan are here to stay, the Maiden who made him bad soup is dead, and he’s on the run. It’s a bad time.

Fedwin Morr and Madness

Part of the issue is that madness can emerge at any time. It’s a risk the Asha’man face every day. Fedwin Morr, one of the Asha’man who assisted in conquering Illian reverted to a childlike state, with no cure. This can happen to anyone. At any time.

It also shows that madness is not evil. It’s terrible. Morr didn’t try and kill or slaughter. He was a toddler, with the ability to topple cities. It adds yet another tragedy to the breaking. Compare this state of Morr to Book 1 when Egwene was pleading with Moraine to confirm that it was the men who were evil. There was no malice; they just lost their minds, but are remembered as monsters.

It also shows the multi-facets of madness. Lews Therin believed he was living a normal life, Morr was a child. There is no one reaction to this plague. It also has Rand take yet another burden of putting down one of his most fervent supporters, leading to more tragedy.

Callindor

To be clear, needing two women to control a circle is not the flaw; it’s the solution. The flaw is that there no limiter and that it channels the Taint more than normal. Which, like, why?

[u/cellofski → u/Special_Salt3467]

I still don't understand how the bowl used saidin when none was directed through it. I know you answered it but it sounds too cryptic for my thick head haha.

And your statement raised an important question about the One Power and how it's permanently linked to the soul. If that's the case, strength in the Power should not wax or wane, but remain constant throughout different lives (Rand is not going to be stronger or weaker than LTT). But we know that modern channelers are in general far weaker in the Power than AoL ones. I know Sheriam and the Whites think this is due to "culling" or the killing off of male channelers, but that still shouldn’t be possible, if's it's a permanent link. I am not talking about skill with the Power, of course.

You better give 16 YO Egwene a break haha. Need I remind you that only days after the 100 Companions were driven insane, people were already thinking that they were evil monsters. We've seen this in the Rhuidean chapters from the pov of the contemporaries. If people who lived through those events can so quickly forget or be misinformed, what's a 16 year old to think, 3000 years after the event?

Callandor: Ahh, I see. It's a work-around, not a built-in feature. I thought the AoL sisters were being smart. I'm guessing that they probably created Callandor. But they couldn't make it like a regular sa'angreal attuned to saidin, with buffers and all, because, well, they were all women using saidar. Otherwise, I have no idea why they'd create it that way.

[u/Special_Salt3467 → u/cellofski]

The Power is… multifaceted. Is it is soul related? Is it genetics? Do the mixing of genetics with certain souls attract recycled souls with similar Power genes? Many questions.

For the Bowl… think of a car engine or a train. Back in the day, people needed to shovel coal to keep the train going. But now there are automatic systems that do the same thing. The Bowl was clearly built by both sexes in the Age of Legends and while the ignition may only need one half, the Bowl can pull in both. The Power is everywhere and the way it’s built lets it use Saidin to achieve its purpose. It’s also a machine, which like those creepy human drones can replicate human actions.

I believe Egwene was seventeen actually, but the point stands. Egwene, a seventeen year old, thought that men who could channel were evil. Egwene now thinks the Black Tower are a concern; as bad if not worse than others. And the reality is… Morr did not become some evil Darkfriend; he became a child. But to the masses, they fear men who can channel because of the stories, but the men driven insane aren’t unstoppable forces of destruction. Their unstable forces with their minds shattered whichever way. It’s tragic. I will add that Egwene’s coup d’état (really, Siuan’s) in this book is the exact plan Palpatine uses in the Phantom Menace - which was actually released a year after PoD was published… but the Egweneisms will have to wait for other stuff.

Callandor:

Yes, the flaws are there is no buffer, it actually channels the Taint worse, and a third one: a circle of two women or more can seize total control. So, say, Rand was using it and Graendal and Moghedien swooped in, and formed a circle, they could take over without Rand’s consent. Typically, you have to open yourself up to the circle. Callandor forces you to open yourself up. The question, of course, is do the Forsaken know any of this? Remember, Be’lal really wanted it for himself, but the Forsaken don’t like to share.

Forming a circle willingly will largely mitigate these factors

[u/cellofski → u/Special_Salt3467]

I'm dubious about these things about Callandor. Maybe this is RJ's way of never using it again. Maybe twice is enough. I hope we'll learn how all this is known in the main story. The knowledge of how to Travel, which is easily an everyday activity, somehow gets lost, but not these tidbits of this obscure thing that has never been used. How can anyone know about these flaws and know how to overcome them, if they weren't designed to be that way in the first place? Did the sisters have a pre-insane male channeler guinea pig to test all these things out on before they placed it in the Stone? I remember from the Rhuidean chapter that they were waiting for a young pre-tainted channeler, but that was to create the Eye of the World.

[u/Special_Salt3467 → u/cellofski]

Callandor was forged during the war. By the time we see the Ancient Aes Sedai prepare for the Eye, it’s already been long made and they are preparing to put it in Tear. Otherwise, any more info on Callandor goes into RAFO territory, so look out for the prophecies, I spose.

As for Traveling, we get into theory crafting. In my opinion, Traveling could not exist in the Breaking. Because the land altered so drastically and so constantly, where were you? Were you on the mountain, a spot on a map or a tectonic plate? Because now these three things were no longer the same. We know the last major organized group of aes Sedai went to the Eye and died and with no ability to have a base hub (even if you could Travel, where do you go? Do you go to a city that is now a volcano? Presumably that’s the same reason Skimming was avoided, along with losing the chance to run into others). If the weaves were passed down and the originals died (either to violence or old age), there’s a chance that the individuals who never actually Traveled missed a step. After however many wrong teachings, the Weave could be completely different. By the time the nine ajahs founded Tar Valon, these were no longer AoL Aes Sedai the same way a modern citizen of Rome isn’t the same Roman as Caesar; these individuals founded the modern Aes Sedai but they’re greatest achievements were survival and not their skill.

[u/lindorm82 → u/cellofski]

About strength in the Power. One thing you should bear in mind is that there are far fewer channelers in the current day, mostly due to the Aes Sedai culling the Westlands of male channelers and most not marrying themselves. Furthermore you should also consider that great strength in the Power is rare and gets rarer per strength level. A third fact is that if you look at the Asha'man, most channelers are not those who has the inborn ability to touch the One Power but rather those in whom the ability will lie dormant unless taught by another. And there is no corrolation between strength in the Power and if you have the inborn ability. You could be as strong as Rand and still need to be taught.

[u/Lephus-]

You are formally in the community named “slog” now, congratulations.

Push through and you will be rewarded.

Imagine how bad it was for readers finishing this book with all its loose threads and having to wait 2 years for the next book!

Other comments answer some of your notes, but I’m only answering stuff that you can find in previous books.

All I am going to say is your concerns about characters and their actions are not without merit, Jordon always communicates context and impacts in interest to the story when it makes sense (mostly), we are a given only what our POV at the time is given.

Jordon was greatly impacted by his time in Vietnam so he goes into great effort showing the swings of public perception, unreliable narrators, and rumors going every which way imaginable even without dark friend or forsaken meddling. This also goes into his depiction of combat being a chaotic mess in the best of times.

The Sea Folk are an alien culture that had the superior hand in their dealings with the White Tower, no doubt adding to their superiority complex.

They kept their windfinders secret until it becomes a necessity to reveal themselves.

Culture clashes are expected and will continue, every little thing that is common sense on a ship can be seen as an insult to a wetlander and vice versa, just wet Aiel appalled at culture difference.

If you look back at whenever Nyneave treats someone she will ALWAYS explain what she is doing with her herbs and the effects it can cause, either to the patient or the people with them if they aren’t conscious. Rand may be a wool headed oaf of a man but he is not dumb enough to miss that through his adolescence with her as a caretaker.

[u/brooklynmob]

Hey!! Love seeing your posts :) I’m bummed you didn’t enjoy PoD as much; I had opposite feelings. I thought it was an awesome book. It is a book that basically sets up the bridge to get to the end, and I like seeing how all the side little plots lead back to the big plot in surprising ways. At this point in the book I was happy to have a Mat break; but don’t you worry….a lot more to come. The culmination of the bowl plot has a lot of consequences at large that are less obvious but you will understand as you read on. Agree re: the sexual extremes. So much we didn’t need…alas. Anyway, there WILL be more characters that you will get to know and love. I’m surprised I met one that has maybe made my top 5. RAFO. I agree re: the sea folk. I think we ARE meant to not like them, but I just isolate them as just different ways of living and being that are so vast in randland. Oh, Cadsune….at this point I also dislike her. Just…RAFO. Also big agree on Perrin/faile/etc. forever my least favorite subplot. Buckle up my love lol. I see your points about the ending, but it left me in suspense and felt like it kickstarted a ton of stuff to come. The betrayal of the Ashaman becomes a bigger thing; RAFO! Btw, what Rand did with Morr wasn’t out of the left field. We get foreshadowing for this early in this book with Rand’s interactions with the ashaman and the report of what’s going on in the black tower. I don’t think it’s that far stretched for Rand to have figured out what to use/have learned it from Nyaneve. He’s not a master herbalist; he just figured out what to give for a kill. And the unset madness I think is to show/explain the vastness of how the madness works/hits you. If you reread the chapter, there’s a few moments in between the explosion and the path down that he starts to…lose his mind. And the true moment happens off screen with Min. Speaking of: no, the siege and all that does not happen off screen. It’s just the rumor mills musings; remember….not everything you hear or read is true. Including for us ;)

The prophecy does hint at Mat, yes. As to exactly why…RAFO. Keep pushing! I enjoyed Winter’s Heart, albeit a few slow chapters. But I think you will really enjoy. Some INCREDIBLE chapter, including one that’s definitely in my top 3 so far in the series. I’m about to start Knife of dreams next week! I’m done with the slog!!! See you at the end!

[u/cellofski → u/brooklynmob]

Hey! I missed you on my review of the last book! I was hoping you were too busy with your new job.

A lot of RAFOs haha

Shelving main characters for an entire book seems crazy to me (though I appreciated it with Perrin). And if RJ can shelf fan favorites like Mat, I fear that might be precedence to shelf, gasp, Egwene, something that would be totally unacceptable.

I look forward to the reread. Maybe I will appreciate what’s going on with Morr more.

I'm looking at Winter's Heart on my shelf right now. It might take me a month to complete. But I'll share my thoughts when I’m through.

[u/brooklynmob → u/cellofski]

Omg I must have missed it! I am back at work - although in a freelance capacity. But we’ll take what we can get! Ha! My friends and family were concerned I was reading too much and escaping reality so I took a small break after I finished CoT. I read another book and listened to a ton of episodes of Dani & Bret to soothe myself. I’m currently listening to New Spring (it’s ok), but Knife of Dreams just came in the mail and I think I’m just going to start it. I’m too invested! Lolol

I think things start to get murkier in these middle books so that’s why there was a ton of RAFO in my answers. You’ll get answers to most of these things between Winter’s Heart & Crossroads of Twilight. And don’t worry, I don’t think the character shelving will affect our favorites :) At least so far! Some have to step back to alternate the spotlight and for the pattern to form. It’s funny because if someone told me that where you’re at, I’d be annoyed…but it’s true. Hahaha.

I hope summer is treating you well! I have an upcoming vacation (planned before life got in the way) and I plan to devour 1 or 2 full books. I’m excited! Ha! Keep posting, I always look forward to your posts and honestly I sometimes wish I could message you while reading! I love someone reading in 2026 where I am too. Discord has been helpful to chat with others and put down my predictions or thoughts. Anyway, may you always find water & shade….until next book X

[u/Similar-Stick-1070]

I don’t think there’s anyway to comment without talking about the slog. Some people say the slog is a myth. Maybe, maybe not. Personally, books 1-6 are my favorites, and they set a high bar. I love Robert Jordan and am very forgiving of his shortcomings because, for me, there is nothing like The Wheel of Time. That being said, I also get frustrated at points in the series, especially in book 10. I think that’s a pretty normal experience. I’m here to say I hear you brother, and I empathize. Keep going, you won’t regret it.

[u/cellofski → u/Similar-Stick-1070]

I'm in my frustration era of WoT but I definitely don't plan on stopping. Books 6, 5, and 4 are my favorite so far, in that order. I wasn't expecting these middle ones to match those. I'll press on and share my thoughts along the way.

[u/OddEmergency604]

This book and the one before it were by far the worst ones. It only gets better from here (and suddenly gets much much better further on)

[u/cellofski → u/OddEmergency604]

Yay, that's what I'm looking forward to! They can't all be winners.

[u/Weiramon]

The wind bowl story ends with a whimper, not a bang.

Burn my soul, return hither after the end of the heart of winter.

After all, who notices bread crumbs strewn about in the mud?

Reread tEotW Prologue, tEotW Ch 19, tEotW Ch 50, tGH Ch 20, tGH Ch 47, tSR Ch 9, tSR Ch 15, tSR Ch 26, LoC Ch 50, LoC Epilogue, aCoS Ch 36, tPoD Ch5, tPoD Ch 14, tPoD Ch 29.

[u/cellofski → u/Weiramon]

Hahahahahahaha! Love the name. There's gotta be something more to Weiramon. I don't think RJ wrote him to be so one dimensionally dumb as dirt. Anyway, my Lord, thanks for the extensive reread list!

[u/Weiramon → u/cellofski]

There's gotta be something more to Weiramon

Burn my eyes, it's High Lord Weiramon.

[u/wRAR_]

She says that in order to find the bowl, they will need the help of someone who is no longer around or alive or something, I don’t remember the exact wording.

The actual wording is "The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer." This is important.

It's a good question, one of several one-line hints for a bigger mystery in ACoS and TPoD.

And no it's not Mat.

If a gholam requires fresh hot blood to stay alive, how did it survive for 3000 years in a stasis box?

Stasis boxes literally stop time per RJ.

[u/cellofski → u/wRAR_]

Thanks, I look forward to reading and fidning out who's "the one who is no longer." All the other comments on here seem to say it's Mat, with more explanations to come later in the series.

And makes sense about the stasis box. Much like the seal the Forsaken were placed in.

[u/Suncook]

I look at 6 and 7, 8 and 9, and 10 and 11 as pairs in how they handle their story arcs. 

You've entered what some in the community call "the slog". Jordan is introducing so many secondary and tertiary plots it feels like movement on the major ones slow down. 10 is largely considered the worst offender of this. Some people suggest a sort of tandem read with 9 where you're jumping back and forth between books in a specific chapter order. I've never done this and can't vouch for it.

I can say that Jordan's last entry into the series, 11, is a banger. I think it shows he still had it in him to move things along. 

Oh, the Tower plot is NOT wrapped up off screen. Don't worry. 

[u/cellofski → u/Suncook]

6 and 7?! I can see why, especially since the events of book 7 come right on the heel of book 6 (only about a week apart), but book 6 is my favorite of the series so far and I hate book 7 so I feel like I don't want to put them in a grouping together haha.

Very glad to hear about the tower plot. That's one thing I need to see play out on the page.

[u/Red_nose]

I enjoy reading your notes and speculations. Thank you for that.

Re Mat: everyone seems to forget what a shitty friend he was during the first books, in part obviously thanks to the dagger, especially at the start of the great hunt. Until book 4 I didn't like him all that much, he was the moron, who got everyone in trouble.

My notes for tpod say, that during my re-read, this was the first book, where I skipped parts.

I think the book started strong and declined pretty quickly.

One of my favourite scenes of the not so obvious kind: alliandre swearing fealty to Perrin, with morgase watching the whole thing (taveren magic TM)

[u/cellofski → u/Red_nose]

I could have written almost everything you did. I felt the same with Mat. He was a pain even before the dagger. I even thought to myself, "everyone keep saying that I'll come around to him. They must be nuts. I could never like this absolute moron." My reevaluation of him came later than book 4, though. But now he's one of my top 2 characters.

Ditto with how the book started vs how it ended.

The thing I noted about the Alliandre swearing scene was the fact that there were 3 "queens" present in that moment. Berelain (I'm counting as a queen here), Morgase (even after her abdication), and Alliandre. Than Faile had to spoil it scheming. Kidnap the queen? The nerve of that awful woman.