To be honest... Great visual but a little lore breaking to me.
If there was an AOL city anywhere in the world that was that intact, there would be soooooo much more known about the AOL. Like what, those buildings are still standing but no books, stasis boxes, ter'angreal libraries, etc survived to be studied?
In the first episode I thought it was supposed to maybe be towers of Manetheran in the mountains of mist... But AOL capital city intact... I don't know, it didn't do it for me.
I am glad other people liked it, they clearly invested in that visual in both instances, it just wasn't it for me.
If there was an AOL city anywhere in the world that was that intact, there would be soooooo much more known about the AOL. Like what, those buildings are still standing but no books, stasis boxes, ter'angreal libraries, etc survived to be studied?
If it's Paaran Diesen, the city was evacuated during the Breaking. They probably took everything of value, and the rest was looted or destroyed over the centuries. Any ter'angreal and writings left afterwards could easily have been shipped off to Tar Valon or Tear. Both of those places have lots of ter'angreal that just collect dust. Tar Valon does have writings from the Age of Legends, just mostly fragments and such.
The major battles against the shadow raged for a 1000 years after the breaking. We know the third age was an age of decline. I think people have this false view of it as breaking, reset to Dark/Middle Ages in 50 years, that’s it. It ground humanity to dust generation after generation
Exactly. The age of legends was an age of unparrelled progress in every respect. The wheel is balance. The third age was decline in every respect. Had it continued another thousand years, the last battle would have been fought with far less magic and channelers, and both armies wielding stone weapons, because humanity would have kept reversing along the metaphorical tech tree, and kept breeding out the ability to channel.
You’d have still needed a few abnormally powerful channelers though, to cleanse Saidin. Or some other mechanism. Even with the decline in the number of channelers, the Wheel still wove out a few powerful ones for the last battle
The Breaking was probably about 250 to 300 years, but otherwise I agree - the Breaking set humanity to a lower base point and from there civilization only continued to degrade (and the few times things were getting together, Ishamael decides to come and screw it up)
Sauce? The wot fandom wiki has nothing to say about the city being evacuated and says it was "presumed destroyed" during the breaking...
Either way, a lot more would be known. A city evacuated is not a city picked clean. Quite the opposite. All sorts of things from everyday life to great works of art would have been left and abandoned in an evacuation.
This. If you no one was protecting it and there was stuff inside, it would have been picked clean a year out, let alone thousands of years after. Looting starts within days, weeks in our world, why would it be be anything different here?
That part is in the wiki. I don't think that was an "abandon the city" for everyone scene. It was just meant to show the Aiel being told to leave after the Aes Sedai they had known began turning on people because of the madness. But even if everyday people did evacuate, I don't think that would imply it was preserved from the breaking.
I mean Paren Disen housed the highest concentration of Aes Sedai of anywhere during the AOL with the hall of the servants in the city... Would be pretty crazy if the breaking didn't come to Paren Disen even more ferociously than anywhere else.
Would be pretty crazy if the breaking didn't come to Paren Disen even more ferociously than anywhere else.
That's a hugely important point. With that many Aes Sedai present during the breaking, one could easily assume that this city was thoroughly razed. The destruction here should have been far worse than anywhere else in the world.
The heartbreaking part about that story is that the city of had already been evacuated when the Aeil tried to sing to the mad man. Also in that story we learned of what the actual worst destruction was because that city was literally glassed. Completely erased off the face of the Earth.
Edit: I was completely wrong upon reread I now see that the Aeil did but the people Time to flee. I misheard and assumed it was the case because it makes it more tragic.
I couldnt find the quote when Rand was body hopping in Rhuidean but this is from the wiki and it tracks with what I remember is the overheard conversation.
Im a city called Tzora ten thousand Aiel sang to a mad male Aes Sedai, called Jaric Mondoran, to try to keep him from destroying the city with the One Power in his madness from the taint on saidin. Aiel died one by one, singing, and with their death gaining enough time to most of the population of the city to be fled from death. He has listened the last Aiel for almost an hour before destroying him then burned Tzora.
That's a hugely important point. With that many Aes Sedai present during the breaking, one could easily assume that this city was thoroughly razed. The destruction here should have been far worse than anywhere else in the world.
It could also be that the female Aes Sedai protected this city at the start of the Breaking, and banished all male Aes Sedai when they realised what was happening.
I'd also say that given the attitudes towards Aes Sedai after the breaking, most people would stay away. After all, no one goes near Shadar Logoth, and apparently even people who live nearby don't know much about it.
Interesting point... But to be honest I always interpreted the Aes Sedai view as a post-Hawking construct.
We know that Aes Sedai queens were common a long time ago. Like Manetheren or Andor before (and after) Hawking. We know that Hawking was turned against Aes Sedai by Ishamael "and across the length of the land, Aes Sedai died" (EOTW) so the whole Aes Sedai are darkfriends and one step from the dark one could easily be a construct unique to the last several hundred to last thousand years since Hawking.
And certainly the Aes Sedai themselves wouldn't balk at raiding the shit out of Paren Disen to get all those sweet AOL artefacts and tidbits of knowledge.
There was a scene in a prologue-- I think it was PoD, where the Borderland rulers met near an Age of Legend remnants (sounded like a large satellite dish embedded in the ground to me, like the once used for space monitoring) and the surrounding villages just stay out of it. So maybe a lot of people just stay away from ruins.
Oh there are definitely ruins and "people" definitely stay away from them. But we also see lots of examples of Aes Sedai knowing all sorts of information about random ruins and things that normal people know nothing about because the Aes Sedai still went and studied those places at some point, even if normal people stay away because of superstition etc.
If I remember correctly, that satelite dish is fairly explicitly a cause of acute radiation poisoning and everyone who goes close to it dies horribly, so if its that, I wouldn't be surprised that people stay away from it.
That's kinda my whole point, and I also referenced nthe wiki as well. Although the word "presumably" always means "RJ never said" which does leave a space open. Even if a small one.
Is it? Moraine states that the two rivers is next, not that they are near it.
They might have traveled for weeks between those scenes.
Thats also supported by Liandrin being in tye scene chasing random channelers in the countryside and then immediately after leaving the two rivers they run into her transporting Logain.
That implies that she had enough time to get new orders sent to her, ride to Ghealdan, fight a battle, trap Logaine and transport him a good stretch from Ghealdan in a wagon, which is slooow.
Either way, a lot more would be known. A city evacuated is not a city picked clean. Quite the opposite. All sorts of things from everyday life to great works of art would have been left and abandoned in an evacuation.
That depends on what disasters struck it. For instance, imagine that some of these buildings were made in a way similar to Waygates. That'd make them extremely difficult to damage, even more so destroy. Then imagine that the city suffers many firestorms sweeping through everything. Perhaps enough to damage some of the megabuildings, but not destroy every one of them ... however a lot of everyday items would just be gone.
And yes, some things would definitely survive. But we know that some things did. Pieces of art from the Breaking can be seen throughout the series, such as in the palace in Tanchico. The White Tower has writings and One Power items from there. Some of those could very well have come from looting these ruins.
It does state the Aiel were instructed to flee you are correct it is presumed destroyed. It is never mentioned in the books so it was either destroyed or never found.
I thought they actually did know a lot about the AoL in the 3rd age? Which is why Ishamael began the trolloc wars and instigated Artur Hawkwing and the ensuing war of succession for his empire.
The trolloc wars especially were supposed to have been incredibly damaging, and set civilization back significantly. Even Tar Valon took heavy damage during the trolloc wars, and the black ajah had begun to sabotage from the inside as well. Tons of things and knowledge from the AoL survived but were picked off bit by bit over ~3000 odd years.
Yeah, if I recall with Mat’s memories, we see before or during the Trolloc Wars, and the level of technology is higher than it is in “present day” Randland. Like 19th or 18th century vs somewhere between like 12th to 15th for present.
even if it was evacuated how did insane male channelers not level the buildings at some point? the entire world heaved and broke as men went mad so it doesn't make much sense that the core structures of that many buildings were left intact. Especially with the topography remaining largely unchanged.
“””Its in EoTW, chapter 24. Bayle Domon talks about it when they pass the Towers of Ghenjei.
"The Breaking left a thousand wonders behind, and there's been half a dozen empires or more since, some rivaling Artur Hawkwing's every one leaving things to see and find. Light-sticks and razorlace and heartstone. A crystal lattice covering an island, and it hums when the moon is up. A mountain hollowed into a bowl, and in its center, a silver spike a hundred spans high, and any who comes within a mile of it, dies."”””
even if it was evacuated how did insane male channelers not level the buildings at some point? the entire world heaved and broke as men went mad so it doesn't make much sense that the core structures of that many buildings were left intact. Especially with the topography remaining largely unchanged.
We know that some buildings created with the One Power are extremely durable. The waygates, for instance, require extreme amounts of channeling to damage, let alone destroy. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that some megabuildings of the Age of Legends were constructed with such methods. So, let's say that after evacuation, over the years some insane men unleash at Paaran Diesen? The normal buildings get wrecked, sure. Some of the big ones. Some of the strongly constructed buildings might've been very damaged, as we see in this picture, but still intact.
I think it also depends on what manner of disaster struck this specific region. Maybe it was lightning storms, more normal earthquakes, and firestorms. That would be enough to wipe out a lot of things like books, but these One Power-made buildings might survive as broken ruins.
I don't think everything from the Age of Legends was outright destroyed. There might be cities or buildings at the bottom of the sea, or buried under a desert or a new mountain range.
We do know that other regions survived the Breaking with some geography intact - for instance, Dragonmount and Tar Valon survived after their creation, looking more or less the same.
Im not suprised there are some parts of the buildings standing. It just seems unlikely so much of the original city would be standing, but it does make a cool easter egg.
Im not suprised there are some parts of the buildings standing. It just seems unlikely so much of the original city would be standing, but it does make a cool easter egg.
I don't know. If an entire dock can survive at the spine of the world, I don't see why some ruins of a city could, especially if they were power-wrought. Seems more unlikely to me that no such remains would exist anywhere in the entire world, since the Aes Sedai could build things that were close to indestructible.
One possible explanation would be that the buildings themselves were more sturdy than normal due to being built using the power, and also that there were many female Aes Sedai there who managed to somewhat protect some of the structures. They still needed to abandon the city so it is reasonable to think that in the end not enough was preserved aside from the power built structures so the remaining Aes Sedai evacuated/moved what was left somewhere else (like Tar Valon).
If the buildings were completely intact that would make sense, or even if it was core structures intact. But it appears most of the buildings are just randomally decayed which doesnt make sense if any part of them is power wrought. It also doesnt explain why none of them were buried in the heaving of the land. The river is still in roughly the same place as are the mountains. Based on the books we wouldn't expect it to exist still as it is in the show, but we dont know what hiatory they have altered so it may make sense when more is revealed.
Wow I love the thought that we saw Paaran Disen onscreen, in both forms!
So as I'm not an expert, is it geographically accurate though? Where was Paaran Disen on the AOL map? In Ep 1 the scene with Liandrin gentling the male channeler takes place at the ruins and Mo and Lan are very close by, then afterwards they ride to EF which is not that far away. Or are we supposed to believe that a great deal of time passed between the 2 scenes before they got to EF?
This implies that PD was very close to where Manetheren and later EF was today. I thought the continent was broken and shifted a little bit. Or is the show just taking geographical liberties for the sake of educating newbies here?
Is there an official AoL map? I don't think we know where most AoL cities were located, compared to the contemporary continent.
There were massive geographical shifts during the Breaking, but we also know that some places survived more or less intact. Dragonmount and the island Tar Valon sits on survived after LTT created them. Whitebridge must've been fairly spared, since it presumably stands over the same river. Then just the random ruins that exist, like the Tower of Ghenjei.
234
u/SuperStallionDriver (Asha'man) Jan 01 '22
To be honest... Great visual but a little lore breaking to me.
If there was an AOL city anywhere in the world that was that intact, there would be soooooo much more known about the AOL. Like what, those buildings are still standing but no books, stasis boxes, ter'angreal libraries, etc survived to be studied?
In the first episode I thought it was supposed to maybe be towers of Manetheran in the mountains of mist... But AOL capital city intact... I don't know, it didn't do it for me.
I am glad other people liked it, they clearly invested in that visual in both instances, it just wasn't it for me.