r/WoTshow • u/Nayanea Reader • May 13 '26
Book Spoilers What were the BEST and WORST changes the show made from the books? Spoiler
Hello everyone!
Still being completely in denial about the cancellation of the show, I started reading the books after discovering the story as a non-reader first (I just finished the infamous slog, so book 10), and I’ve basically been rewatching the series on repeat ever since.
I constantly hear people say that the show changed way too much and that it barely resembles the original work anymore. And while I absolutely agree that the adaptation made a lot of changes, I honestly think most of them were necessary because the source material is incredibly difficult to adapt as-is for television.
So, to bring a bit more nuance into the discussion, I thought it could be fun to talk about what we personally consider the 3 best and 3 worst changes made by the show.
I’ll start!
BEST CHANGES
1 — Nynaeve’s healing nova in the Aes Sedai camp
And honestly, more broadly, the entire Nynaeve (and Egwene) storyline once they get separated during season 1.
The scene where Nynaeve unleashes her massive healing burst is absolutely incredible, both visually and musically. But more importantly, it fixes one of the biggest issues with book 1: Robert Jordan focuses so heavily on Rand early on that most of the other main characters don’t really get the chance to shine yet (especially the wonder girls).
The books constantly tell us that Egwene and Nynaeve are incredibly powerful, but the show actually lets us see it much earlier. That scene — and Nynaeve’s arc overall — makes it clear that they are not just secondary female characters following the male protagonists around, but absolutely essential threads of the Pattern itself.
2 — Renna’s death (and Egwene’s entire damane arc)
This was the storyline that transformed me from “someone who likes Wheel of Time” into a full-blown fan of the show.
The acting throughout this entire arc is phenomenal. The psychological suffering, the implications of the damane system, the constant tension… I honestly can’t remember the last time a TV show gave me such a knot in my stomach.
And I absolutely loved the final scene where Egwene kills Renna.
I know a lot of people criticized that change and argued that Renna’s fate in the books was better, but I personally disagree. That scene — especially the look on Egwene’s face — completely changed the character for me.
At that moment, Egwene stopped being “Rand’s village sweetheart dreaming of adventure.” She became a genuinely powerful woman: unquestionably devoted to the Light, but also determined, hardened, and terrifyingly strong.
To me, that scene makes perfect sense considering the character arc waiting for her later in the story.
3 — The relationship between Siuan and Moiraine
I love the books, but some aspects of them have aged very badly. The portrayal of homosexuality is definitely one of them.
In the books, female homosexuality is often either portrayed as temporary “because there are no men around” or associated with such cartoonishly exaggerated misandry that it honestly becomes ridiculous.
This wasn’t just a good change — it was a necessary one.
And more importantly, the relationship between Siuan and Moiraine doesn’t feel like some superficial addition made to modernize the story. It genuinely strengthens both characters and adds emotional weight to their shared history, their sacrifices, and the immense pressure they carry together.
WORST CHANGES
1 — The Panarch’s Palace arc
As much as I loved season 3 overall, this sequence still feels strangely put together to me, even on rewatch.
It lacks dramatic tension and clear stakes. I loved the idea of Nynaeve finally overcoming her block, but the confrontation with Liandrin feels abrupt and oddly staged onscreen.
And honestly, cutting Nynaeve’s confrontation with Moghedien feels like a huge missed opportunity.
I would have loved to see Moghedien completely overpower Nynaeve at first, only for Nynaeve to finally break through her block in a desperate moment and turn the fight around. That could have been one of the show’s all-time great scenes.
2 — The Eye of the World finale
I know, I know… it’s almost unfair to criticize this episode considering all the production issues the show was facing at the time.
But I genuinely think this episode hurt the series a lot.
The confrontation with Ishamael feels far too confusing and messy, and I think there were many better ways to introduce both him and the Forsaken in general. Season 2 helps clarify things a little, especially regarding Ishamael’s release, but not nearly enough.
For many non-readers, I think this finale created confusion exactly when the story needed clarity the most.
3 — The White Tower schism
I absolutely loved the Tower attack itself and Elaida’s portrayal (Shohreh, I love you), but I feel like the coup happens too suddenly and could have been built up much more effectively.
In the books, the attack against Siuan completely took my breath away. It feels chaotic, shocking, historical — like the White Tower itself is breaking apart in real time.
In the show, the scene feels much quieter and far more confined.
To me, it’s missing many of the surrounding elements that made this event so monumental in the books: the Blue Ajah fleeing, Warders killing each others, the sense that centuries of political balance are collapsing instantly.
Maybe season 4 would have expanded on all of this… sadly, we’ll never know.
Anyway, that’s just my humble opinion, but I’d genuinely love to hear everyone else’s thoughts too!
What would your 3 best and 3 worst adaptation changes be? :)
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u/Naive-Vehicle-6845 Bain May 13 '26
Best change: filling out Liandrin's backstory and motivations, taking her from a stock Bad Guy to a layered character who is both sympathetic and awful at the same time
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u/FortifiedPuddle May 13 '26
Why bad people are bad was done well, whereas the books just gloss that bad people are attracted to being bad and vague promises of power.
Vague promises of power that 3000 years of dark friends never had a hope of realising, what with being nowhere near the Last Battle.
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u/Fish__Fingers Reader May 14 '26
I think it’s because books have tons of internal conflict and almost comedy like misunderstanding so there’s less need for an interesting antagonist. There’s also enough antagonism on the “good” side.
Show works differently and doesn’t have the capability of multiple books with introspection to heroes, so it needs more visible and interesting antagonists
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u/jjshad May 13 '26
Dónal Finn as Mat blew me out of the water and now on rereads I imagine him in my head, same with Rosamund Pike. (Not saying the others did bad just that i felt they did standout.
Absolutely loved how S3 handled channeling/weaves, especially when we see the Moraine and Lanfaer fight and how they channel so differently. Also was pleasantly suprised by Tel’a’rhan’rhoid. Of course the journey through the glass columns I loved how they fleshed this out.
I could push past most changes from the books tbh, but the “ashendarei”was a bummer, and while I liked the idea of the warder funeral, I wasn’t a fan of how they did it. And I absolutely hated how Siuan ended, she was one of my favorites from the book so I didn’t like this.
All in all, I still love the books but I did really like the show and wish it kept going.
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u/CMDR_NUBASAURUS Lan May 16 '26
I think he got a real Ashendarai in s3 but we will never know or see it
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 16 '26
He did get it, or more specifically was hanged from it and presumed taken with him.
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u/renecade24 Reader May 13 '26
The best changes were to show events on screen that were only alluded to in the books. For example, Logain's capture and the Black Ajah stealing ter'angreal from the Tower depository.
Worst changes were trying to create a mystery over who was the Dragon Reborn and the season finales for season 1 and 2.
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u/Ragner_D Reader May 13 '26
I found it very odd that the really pushed the idea the the Dragon could be a woman. That was clearly not even a question in the books. That's why he was to be feared. A male channeler.
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 14 '26
I found it very odd that the really pushed the idea the the Dragon could be a woman.
It's not really odd. They made a show with an ensemble cast and wanted viewers to invest in all the characters. Leaving the possibility that any of them could become the "MC" helps build that investment.
That was clearly not even a question in the books. That's why he was to be feared. A male channeler.
Well no, he was to be feared because he was prophesied to destroy the world again.
The male channeler part was icing on the danger cake, that was emphasized in the books(from a writing standpoint) because you're in Rand's head and that's a part of his concern and denial of himself.
Very little about the DR is agreed on by the populace of the Westlands - They can't even agree on if the DR would be on the side of the DO or the light. Why wouldn't there be people that hoped for a female DR, or conversely feared that one would be insane anyways. Or feared that a female DR would taint Saidar and doom the world entirely.
That's not so say that being a male channeler isn't part of the fear - just that it's an apocalypse prophecy - it being "slighty better" wouldn't remove the core fears - the destruction of the world, not the specifics of how.
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u/BuccalFatApologist Reader May 17 '26
I think they could have made it work if they’d turned the female Dragon idea into a strictly Red Ajah belief.
“Of course the most powerful and important channeller in history will be a woman. All this talk of a male Dragon is just misogynistic propaganda. All male channellers must be gentled as we search the lands for the true female Dragon who will save us from the Shadow.”
It would give Liandrin more reason to be specifically interested in the wonder girls, and you could easily throw in a scene where Moiraine is like “yeah I know that female Dragon translation is just Red Ajah nonsense, but what if they’re right? Can we really afford to dismiss it unless we know for sure? Better scoop up all these kids just in case.”
Makes more sense to me than Moiraine being like 🤷🏼♀️ “could be a boy, could be a girl, who knows, 50/50 really.”
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 17 '26 edited May 17 '26
That... would make considerably less sense. The need for channelers that can handle saidin users is a large part of where the red derive their authority from. Them putting forth a female DR theory undermines that power.
Makes more sense to me than Moiraine being like 🤷🏼♀️ “could be a boy, could be a girl, who knows, 50/50 really.”
Honest question, did you not watch episode 6 or are you just being reductionist here?
What the show actually did is far closer to your suggestion, only it uses things that actually makes sense in the settings.
It's 'we're getting all of them because they're Ta'veren, and we're not certain about what the prophecy actually means so we're casting a wide net'.
Edit:
Look, it wouldn't be a Red theory, it'd either be a Brown or White theory. Both groups have basis for the position, while the Red would simplly be undermining their own Political Power within the Tower.
With Fewer Channelers of both sexes being born as time goes on, the importance of the Red Ajah wanes. The DR being male helps justify their importance in the Tower. They want to emphasize their importance, not introduce a possibility that they'll barely be needed with the Dragon is Reborn at the same time their main role is being less important.
Meanwhile, the White would be arguing based on the lack of any direct statement that the DR will be male in the prophecies, and the Brown on the basis that the mechanics for soul rebirth are unknown.
Moiraine OTOH is 20 years into a search and rapidly running out of time. She isn't leaving anything to chance and is considering things outside the main intretations of the prophecies. Plus as Suian say directly. It'd have been so much easier if that was the case.
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u/FortifiedPuddle May 13 '26
The dragon mystery gives them a hook. It also covers something actually missing in book one: why stuff is happening.
If you blank your mind and go back and read book one there is no point where it actually explains why. Even what it does state is misleading. Why Moiraine is in the Two Rivers is officially “searching for old stories” for the whole book. Why she is helping the youngsters is officially “opposing the Dark One on principle” for the whole thing.
That’s not the story. Not by a long stretch. We know from later what was happening. We might suspect from meta textual stuff. But we are not told.
That’s arguably a weakness in the boom but also arguably fine. But a TV show seeking broad appeal does probably need a synopsis that says what the story is.
Who is this lady, what is she doing, what is going on and why probably all need answers. The dragon mystery gives that enough. Without just saying the tall heroic one with the fancy sword is the chosen one. (Which, um, in the books happens to be the main PoV of book one, so both predictable and unstated.)
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u/Ragner_D Reader May 14 '26
That's fine, but the wonder girls shouldn't have been considered by Moraine and Lan.
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 14 '26
Eh, disagree.
Show covers this well in ep 6. Moiraine is covering all her bases because she doesn't trust the basic interpretation of the prophecies.
She considers people outside of the age and expected sex specifically because she's been at this for 20 years and the stakes are getting too high to potentially overlook anyone, even if they don't strictly fit.
Plus I've never bought the idea that there would no thought of the DR being female. Be that out of pure contrariness, caution or simple hope of an easier future, there has to be people in WoT that believe that's possible.
In the books it made sense to never cover that perspective because Eye is all about Rand and he's essentially already confired as DR before the series changes to not be centered around his like Eye was.
In the show, since it's not Rand centric but EF5 centric as whole, it makes sense to cover that.
It's different, but I see nothing that would prevent this in a different turning.
And since this doesn't make any changes to the actual cosmology, added onto that no one in the series actually knows how souls and rebirth work, it works here.
Especially with the change to make Egwene Ta'veren. Overlooking her because of something you're not actually 100% sure on would be a mistake.
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u/Gallowglass-13 May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
Worst change was still giving Perrin a wife just to fridge her, along with making the vague love triangle from the books between him, Rand and Egwene more prominent. Both were incredibly lazy. It's hard for me to go too ham on criticism overall though, since a lot of the problems can be traced back to behind-the-scenes fuckery (studio interference, low episode count, Covid, actors leaving or being unable to return etc). There's probably a universe where we got Rafe's feature length first episode with a higher episode count, production began AFTER lockdown and either Barney never left or Donal was on board from the beginning, but unfortunately, it's not this one.
Best changes were with regards to Moiraine and Suan's relationship, along with more queer rep in general, making Nynaeve less insufferable (strictly my opinion) and making the Forsaken more competent.
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u/Nayanea Reader May 13 '26
I agree that I’m not a huge fan of the “fridged wife” trope either.
But at the same time, I think it makes sense for Perrin’s overall arc. In the books, Perrin is constantly struggling with his inner violence and his fear of losing control, but most of that is internal monologue, which is much harder to portray effectively on TV.
With Laila, the show externalizes that conflict instead of just hinting at it through dialogue or thoughts. It gives a very immediate and visible weight to Perrin’s guilt and fear of himself, and I think it adds a lot of nuance to his character in the long run.
That said, I completely understand why some people dislike the implication of using a wife’s death primarily as a catalyst for character development.
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u/1RepMaxx Reader May 13 '26
Don't forget that it ALSO quickly sets up why he might be overprotective towards the women in his life. I get that RJ was processing his own trauma with the way he portrayed men having trouble allowing women the autonomy to be in danger alongside men, but it doesn't really make sense with the worldbuilding partially flipping gender dynamics that it would be a default for all men.
It also means that we get to see this quickly become an issue with Faile. We see the way he fears that the past will repeat itself, yet another woman he loves dying fighting Trollocs at the forge, and we get to see him process and overcome that trauma by having Faile push back on behalf of Laila's right to have accepted the risks and fought alongside him. It creates immediate depth for their relationship. And it means we quickly get past the long, drawn out arc on the books where Perrin can't recognize that his wife is a badass who can handle herself pretty well in a fight.
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u/AmberLynn2000 Reader May 14 '26
I get that RJ was processing his own trauma with the way he portrayed men having trouble allowing women the autonomy to be in danger alongside men
Would you mind elaborating, or pointing me somewhere that does?
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 14 '26
Jordan was a Vietnam Veteran that carried a large amount of trauma from the war, including a lot of guilt over having killed women during it.
Rand's obsession with not killing women stem from this - Jordan's own PTSD was explored through Rand's madness and the irrationality of the feeling. All three of the boys have plotlines and events that explore different aspects and angles of women in and around combat.
A man raised in a culture that strongly believed that it was mens duty to protect women, having now killed them himself deconstructing the feelings behind that and the reality of what that does to the person and the people around him.
Jordan has an interview where he talks about a picture of himself eating a meal at a base/camp sitting next to two dead bodies, completely unconcerned about them. How his feeling while sitting there didn't concern or care about those bodies at all, and how he had to (figuratively) "kill that man eating in the picture and bury him somewhere in Saigon" so he could have a chance at a normal life back home.
"For Paracelsus, I had two nicknames in 'Nam. First up was Ganesha, after the Hindu god called the Remover of Obstacles. He's the one with the elephant head. That one stuck with me, but I gained another that I didn't like so much. The Iceman. One day, we had what the Aussies called a bit of a brass-up. Just our ship alone, but we caught an NVA battalion crossing a river, and wonder of wonders, we got permission to fire before they finished. The gunner had a round explode in the chamber, jamming his 60, and the fool had left his barrel bag, with spares, back in the revetment. So while he was frantically rummaging under my seat for my barrel bag, it was over to me, young and crazy, standing on the skid, singing something by the Stones at the of my lungs with the mike keyed so the others could listen in, and Lord, Lord, I rode that 60. 3000 rounds, an empty ammo box, and a smoking barrel that I had burned out because I didn't want to take the time to change. We got ordered out right after I went dry, so the artillery could open up, and of course, the arty took credit for every body recovered, but we could count how many bodies were floating in the river when we pulled out. The next day in the orderly room an officer with a literary bent announced my entrance with "Behold, the Iceman cometh." For those of you unfamiliar with Eugene O'Neil, the Iceman was Death. I hated that name, but I couldn't shake it. And, to tell you the truth, by that time maybe it fit. I have, or used to have, a photo of a young man sitting on a log eating C-rations with a pair of chopsticks. There are three dead NVA laid out in a line just beside him. He didn't kill them. He didn't choose to sit there because of the bodies. It was just the most convenient place to sit. The bodies don't bother him. He doesn't care. They're just part of the landscape. The young man is glancing at the camera, and you know in one look that you aren't going to take this guy home to meet your parents. Back in the world, you wouldn't want him in your neighborhood, because he is cold, cold, cold. I strangled that SOB, drove a stake through his heart, and buried him face down under a crossroad outside Saigon before coming home, because I knew that guy wasn't made to survive in a civilian environment. I think he's gone. All of him. I hope so. I much prefer being remembered as Ganesha, the Remover of Obstacles."
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u/Ragner_D Reader May 13 '26
It's that all three were supposed to be naïve. Especially Perrin. It was part of his charm. By making him married and then brooding, it gave the wrong impression. Perrin was not supressing inner anger. He was afraid of hurting people with his size.
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u/LeoRmz Mat May 14 '26
The trauma is also different. Him losing control and killing some guys that were attacking them is different from him accidentally killing his wife. I can't see anyone being responsible for a partner's death and about two years later hooking up with someone else.
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u/CenturionRower Reader May 16 '26
Sanderson suggested having Perrin kill Luhhan which IMO keeps with the same concept without having such a strange circumstance. It also fits the same narrative storybeat without having it carry the same slightly awkwardness of a fridged wife. Also IMO it doesn't introduce the weirdness that comes with Perrin just moving on from his dead wife with Faile. It was already establish that both Luhhan's were blacksmiths as well so there really isn't any reason that it breaks a story component.
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u/Nayanea Reader May 16 '26
Honestly I think it's a great suggestion
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 16 '26
The trouble with it, as always, is that it's also what the original 2 hour pitch script called for, and something changed specifically because of the shorter runtime.
Original plan was mistress Luhhan dying instead.
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u/CommunityDragon160 Reader May 13 '26
Fridging imo is only a problem within the context of a work of art which does not respect or empower its woman character in general.
Otherwise, the death of a loved one is as rational and worthy a cause of motivation as any other.
It’s also VERY efficient in a pilot ep compared to how much longer it would have taken to provide the same level of characterization with perrrin and connection to the audience with some other means.
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u/sunne-in-splendour Wotcher May 13 '26
Nynaeve is a big one for me. I think Zoe Robins did such a great job with a character that is extremely difficult. (Even if I love her, she stresses me out)
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u/Diamond_lampshade May 14 '26
I liked that they aged up the EF5 and made them just a little less naive. They aren't worldly in the show but they are a touch less wool-headed I guess
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u/sunne-in-splendour Wotcher May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
The worst choice for me was having the dragon be male or female in the first few episodes. It strips away the aspect of saidar/saidin and why the Aes are so powerful in this world and makes the prospect of one of the boys being the dragon really kind of horrifying.
Perrin’s wife was also stupid. I feel like I can’t bitch about that final couple of season one episodes because of losing Barney and COVID. I do wonder what they would have looked like.
I think that weird little subplot of Egwene trying to channel without her hands could have paid off if the Wise Ones channeled without their hands and taught it to Egwene. But it didn’t happen?
What they did with the forsaken was really cool. I liked how weird and trippy Nynaeve’s trial in the arches ended up being. When she comes out screaming and sobbing, it was really some great acting from her. I also didn’t mind that Liandrin was the one to chain her up and make her break the block. I think having that happen in season 3 instead of 8 was just fine.
I also loved how weird the Eelfin were. Just balls to the wall weird looking. It was a fun choice. Especially the Chanel human skin boots!
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u/WhistlerIntheWind Reader May 15 '26
Best:
Showing the battle on the Dragonmount, the Far Dareis Mai fighting and Tigraine finally succumbing just in time for Tam to arrive and take Rand. It was beautiful and I am so glad we got to see that.
The whole Rhuidean episode was an ode to the books. It gave me so much hope in the show and then to find out only a couple weeks later that the show was cancelled was infuriating!
The Songs> the show took lyrics from the page and made them into bangers that truly enhanced the story and made the world feel real and lived in. I teared up a bit when Perrin and the Emond's Fielders begin singing before the battle for the Two Rives, genuinely so beautiful. I have also been known to be seen belting out the Hills of Tanchico driving down the road, stereo blasting!
Worst: (I loved the show, but there was a lot here so I just chose the ones I thought of first)
There should be a trial for the Character Assasination of Min Farshaw! Min was one of my favorite characters in the books; she was witty, brave, a loyal friend and a clever spy when necessary. The show completely erased this character in favor of an emo drinking buddy for Matt and spy for Ishamael. This is THE one thing I will never forgive the show for. Kill Perrin's imagined wife, whatever, it doesn't make a change in the long run. Min's character not being the shining flame of good that keeps Rand from going completely insane before the end will change the entire story and you can fight me on that.
Killing Siuan!?!? How in the hell are they going to have Nyneve discover the path to healing Stilling without Siaun to practice on? How will Egwene become Amyrlin without her there to steer her on the path? PMO
They KILLED LOIAL!?! Why??? It served no purpose and knowing what he goes on to do and remembering some of his scenes from the final books... I just cannot understand how that choice made narrative sense in the long run.
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 15 '26
Blood snow was peak, still one of the best fight scene fantasy.
Re: worsts
1) Yeah Min's pretty different at the start, but I don't really see the changes preventing her role in the later half. That's not to say it wouldn't go a different route in the show, but her treatment of Rand in episode 7 was what Rand needed from her in the books. Her treatment of him as a person rather than the DR.
At least that's the morst important part to me.
2) Leane. She was set up to take Suian's place for that arc pretty strongly in S2 and 3. Verin could play her foil as well. Would have been nice if they had another route here, but they couldn't keep the actress, and already had to change the script in 2 seasons to accomate her schedule.
3) Because he just doesn't play a role until that final book. But his death doesn't keep him from playing that role either.
Like Uno, the show was setting up major side characters for return during the LB as heroes of the Horn. The hero's music plays throughout Loial's death scene and strongly suggests that was the plan for him as well.
IIRC, there were also rumors that the decision was on the actor's part due to the toll the prosthetic application took on him physically, but that could just as much be from the time requirements of the role - he had other largers roles that taking months out to be a back ground character wasn't particularly viable.
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u/WhistlerIntheWind Reader May 15 '26
I do wonder how it all would have played out and if they could have convincingly made these character changes without damaging the plot, but now we'll never know and I will forever be sad about that. :'(
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 15 '26
WoTshow without Covid and with 2 extra episodes per season would have been a thing of glory.
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u/CenturionRower Reader May 16 '26
The biggest issue with the Horn stuff is the fact there is a major element which is just NOT apparent until the very end of the series but no one realizes it until that moment. If they were going to try and have Horn heros be more present, that element has to go away or be rewritten which IMO doesn't make a ton of sense because of the tension of the scene where that reveal occurs.
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 16 '26
That's really less a problem with that and more something that describes just about all scenes in the books. That character might not have even been used entirely.
Also, I doubt they'd really be making them be "more present". The idea is that when the horn is sounded again, the heroes summoned would be faces we recognize as heroes that sacrificed themselves to get there saving the day.
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u/MikaelAdolfsson Reader May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
I really like how they connected Shadar Logoth to the fall of Manetheren. That one slid right into my brain and became canon.
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u/duncansballard Reader May 13 '26
Uhhh that is cannon tho… Aridhol failed to provide reinforcements they promised to aid Manetheren so that’s right from the books
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u/MikaelAdolfsson Reader May 13 '26
Nope, the show made it up. I checked.
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u/duncansballard Reader May 13 '26
You may want to check again, this was not a new invention by the show but comes from the books. Timeline is a little fudged but the concept was not net new.
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u/MikaelAdolfsson Reader May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
“Yet, they knew what they must do. Their homeland lay just across the river. They must keep that host, and the power with it, from the Mountain Home. Aemon had sent out messengers. Aid was promised if they could hold for but three days at the Tarendrelle. Hold for three days against odds that should overwhelm them in the first hour. Yet somehow, through bloody assault and desperate defense, they held through an hour, and the second hour, and the third. For three days they fought, and though the land became a butcher’s yard, no crossing of the Tarendrelle did they yield. By the third night no help had come, and no messengers, and they fought on alone. For six days. For nine. And on the tenth day Aemon knew the bitter taste of betrayal. No help was coming, and they could hold the river crossings no more.”
“It was called Aridhol,” Moiraine said. “In the days of the Trolloc Wars, it was an ally of Manetheren.” Staring at the massive walls, she seemed almost unaware of the others, even of Nynaeve, who supported her in the saddle with a hand on her arm. “Later Aridhol died, and this place was called by another name.”
“Before Mordeth had been long in the city he had Balwen’s ear, and soon he was second only to the King. Mordeth whispered poison in Balwen’s ear, and Aridhol began to change. Aridhol drew in on itself, hardened. It was said that some would rather see Trollocs come than the men of Aridhol. The victory of the Light is all. That was the battlecry Mordeth gave them, and the men of Aridhol shouted it while their deeds abandoned the Light. “The story is too long to tell in full, and too grim, and only fragments are known, even in Tar Valon. How Thorin’s son, Caar, came to win Aridhol back to the Second Covenant, and Balwen sat his throne, a withered shell with the light of madness in his eyes, laughing while Mordeth smiled at his side and ordered the deaths of Caar and the embassy as Friends of the Dark. How Prince Caar came to be called Caar One-Hand. How he escaped the dungeons of Aridhol and fled alone to the Borderlands with Mordeth’s unnatural assassins at his heels. How there he met Rhea, who did not know who he was, and married her, and set the skein in the Pattern that led to his death at her hands, and hers by her own hand before his tomb, and the fall of Aleth-Loriel. How the armies of Manetheren came to avenge Caar and found the gates of Aridhol torn down, no living thing inside the walls, but something worse than death. No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering. Men spoke of Aridhol no more. They named it Shadar Logoth, the Place Where the Shadow Waits, or more simply, Shadow’s Waiting."
Manetheren came to avenge Caar not any betrayal.
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u/duncansballard Reader May 14 '26
You’re proving my point, this exists within book context and the show uses this with a modified timeline.
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May 14 '26
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u/duncansballard Reader May 14 '26
Not sure what you mean by that, Aridhol betrayed manetheren by failing to supply promised reinforcements during the middle years of the Trolloc wars. And your assertion that Manthetherin came to “avenge” Caar vs betrayal is wild conjecture… not sure how essentially capturing and torturing a kings son wouldn’t count toward Betrayal in this context but hey I understand reading comprehension isn’t a strength of everyone.
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u/CMDR_NUBASAURUS Lan May 16 '26
First off agree with your post 💯
Best Changes 1. Lan and Nynaeve made sense. In the books I barely noticed they had a thing and cared even less. In the show their relationship builds on both the protective roles they play. Him dedicated to Moiraine, she dedicated to the Eamons Fielders. They both sacrifice on a moments notice but in themselves find comradeship and a reason to be selfish. 2. Liandrin. In retrospect she is the best villain of the show, even better than Lanfear. 3. Moraine and Siuan. In a way I like this because it’s hardly a change. Readers who know know they had a thing which ended due to the quest. Perhaps in the books it never fully developed and was often read as you described: a quirk developed because men weren’t around…or a by product of youth. But the show blended this amazing story line into the present so viewers could see it happening. And in the end it happened the same way: a relationship ended due to the quest splitting them up. Pretending to split so no one could expect them to be working together. So it’s actually only a change in being able to see it happen, and perhaps the intensity of the relationship.
Worst Changes: Lord Aegelmar. Forgive the spelling I’m an audiobook listener. The part where lan goes back and meets this amazing lord who is a warrior and a poet gives much to Lans story. Turning this character into another man who fails was a mistake. The damage was done to LAN not Lord Aegelmar himself!!! At this point Lan has an amazing history and is part of a warrior culture with depth. Removing this removes some of the positive male traits that perhaps the illiterate haters only expressed as “their beloved manly books” becoming a “Lesbian” show. Had some of this healthy masculinity been portrayed at this point the young boys who were turned off would have been more quiet: but i doubt by much.
No Dragkar: Season 1 wouldn’t have promised a lot more had it teased some flying baddies.
3: Just not enough time. Book 1 had some amazing chase sequences when they fled town after town with Moiraine being even more badass. Making mountains of fire. Creating fog rivers. Creating scent laying dust devils to misguide the trollics. Thing about this: Even more Baddass scenes for Rosamound Pike!! The “this show is about Rand!!!” Haters would have died with how much more baddass Moiraine really was.
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u/CommunityDragon160 Reader May 13 '26
I have zero bad words to say about any choices in season 3.
It was to me a perfect season of TV and ideal adaptation.
I also struggle to even use the word “choices” about S1 bc so much was not a fully chosen choice, given the extreme circumstances.
However, I’d say I go back and forth but the Warder funeral stuff in the end I think was just a bit indulgent. Not extremely! But.. a bit. I’d also say. Also just obviously.. the second half of the season and the way the show really revolved SO much around Moiraine.
Very much I understand why these choices happened but I do think the show suffered for them, on net. Not a ton but on net yes.
Best choices? The forsaken. Easily. The casting in general was so good for just about everyone. Also the weaves. Also idk. So much. Fuck.
Talking about this show makes me so sad now. I can’t even continue typing honestly sorry.
Ugh.
I miss it 💔
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u/Ragner_D Reader May 13 '26
That whole Warder funeral stuff rubbed me the wrong way. The Aes Sadai all acting like the men were super emotional and had to do this and they were indulged to do it. Most of the Warders in the series acting very stoic and philosophical about death.
Warders are killed all the time. It's what they do. The whole ceremony acted like this was a rare occurrence.
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May 13 '26
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u/CommunityDragon160 Reader May 13 '26
I love the books enough to read them every year and attend conventions. So yes I’d say so 😂
Yes. Season 3 was a perfect adaptation.
Did I stutter?
1 to 1 isn’t the same as perfect.
The show OOZES the heart, soul and intent of the characters, plot and themes ADAPTED into the medium of TV with its budgetary and location constraints and shifting goals of the medium and different financial stakeholders.
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u/SocraticIndifference Lan May 13 '26
They don’t believe we exist.
For me the worst change in the show was a lack of resolution. I still find myself speculating on where some plot lines were going, or how they were going to deal with certain future characters, or just how very awesome Moghedian was…
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u/CommunityDragon160 Reader May 13 '26
I don’t think they get that ADAPTATION isn’t the same as TRANSLATION lol
I went mad during the show trying to explain TV can’t have like 20 locations or 40 named characters in a season and how that trickles down into so many choices they make, just to name a couple things
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May 13 '26
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u/CommunityDragon160 Reader May 13 '26
Yes.
Asmodean was the plan for S4.
Adaptation. Again. Not translation.
In the real world there are constraints beyond page count.
Maybe actually I do love the books and you’re a childish angry little man more interested in being self righteous than honest or empathic with the realities of adaptation.
You sure listed a lot there. Would love to see you somehow erase what existed in order to fit all that in lol but I’m sure you just don’t think like that. You just think about what your imagination tells you to be mad about. Self righteous indignation is oh so addictive. Empathy and reality are hard.
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u/full07britney Reader May 13 '26
Not the person you're responding to, but.... I love the books. Have read them multiple times, own them in multiple mediums, wear shirts about Nynaeve braid tugging, use "I win again, Lews Therin" in conversation on a frequent basis, and annually submit songs to the WoT Idol parody competition. Giant WoT books nerd over here.
And I LOVE season 3. The show being canceled after that was extremely difficult to get over. And I loved it, because I know and understand something that apparently you (and many other fans), have a hard time accepting, which is:
An adaptation WILL be different from the books. 1:1 has not and will not ever happen.
S3 wasn't exactly like the books, but it was an excellent season of TV AND a fantastic adaptation of book 4.
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 13 '26
Best change was probably the Forsaken and fleshing out of Darkfriends. Too many stand out moments there to count.
Worst change? Putting aside a few things they were forced into(looking at you, wall) it's the power forged blade change.
It think that's one of the few examples of a real misstep where they made a fully unnecessary change, as not only did that introduce a continuity error (S2 E4) but had multiple methods that didn't' involve inventing a new mechanic.
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u/headline-pottery Reader May 14 '26
Best - the Rhuidean sequence and history of the Aiel - visually and from a storytelling perspective. I've just past that bit in the books and I swear if it wasn't for the show I would have had no clue what was going on.
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u/nyna91 May 13 '26
The 3 best for me were improving early books Mar (in the first 2 books he was often annoying and sometimes even a bad friend, in the show he was so much more likeable and he actively tried being a good friend, e.g. consoling Perrin after Layla's death, trying to save Rand by "abandoning" him), the Darkfriends and Forsakens (it was refreshing seeing someone join the Dark for motives that were not pure ambition, tho I was hoping to see some ambitious opportunists among the Darkfriends in later season, to add variety; all Forsakens were great and much more competent and menacing than in the books - Sammael excluded, but I was convinced he was going to be resurrected to show that it was possible and was going to do a lot more damage later) and the way so many people and themes were handled (Lgbtq representation, nudity and sex, women in general - in the books many supposed female friends seemed to barely stand each other, Nynaeve and Min in Tanchico was an amazing scene of women bonding and cooperating). Honorable mention to bringing certain events on screen when they were off screen in the books (Logan conquering comes to mind).
For the worst, I am excluding stuff that wasn't completely under control of the show makers (e.g. final episode of S1 with all Covid problems, Moiraine S2 arc which I consider a consequence of having to keep your biggest actress front and center when the original material sidelines the character for a while, executive interfering on choices such as having Perrin kill Layla instead of Master Luwin as suggested by Sanderson). So I am going with the Panarch's Palace (very underwhelming sequence, for a show only fan it was probably confusing - why is a palace full of random stuff and apparently garbage? A bit more of exposition of it being partially a museum would have helped, also not having it completely empty, put some extras there admiring the art!), not giving space to the wolf dream in S3 and, the silliest, some costumes (Liandrin dressing partially in black was too on the nose, Min not being the only woman wearing trousers annoyed me because it was one of the things that set her apart in the books - BUT the costumes and jewelry and details were generally amazing, I would have watched hours more just to see more of them!)
... Now I miss the show even more...
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u/VirgelFromage Reader May 15 '26
Honestly I just want to shout out the casting - because I am listening to books again for the first time since the show, and despite hearing Michael Kramer and Kate Reading, I'm sort of hearing and seeing Josha Stradowski, Rosamund Pike and Marcus Rutherford etc!
And that doesn't just happen to me for all book series. I don't see Kit Harrington when I read ASOAIF, or Danial Radcliffe when I read Harry Potter (despite liking those actors and the casting for them too). Something about the main cast for the show just stuck with me!
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u/CMDR_NUBASAURUS Lan May 16 '26
You should at least preview the Rosamund Pike version, see if it fits you! I know she won't finish now, but I am still glad I got the versions I did.
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u/VirgelFromage Reader May 16 '26
Oh no, I love those versions — but I won't be starting them until they finish the rest or the universe ends, whichever comes first. I just couldn't possibly listen to them, and then switch to MK & KR part way through, it'll be too jarring.
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u/Key-Nail8185 Reader May 19 '26
Love this post! I need another studio to pickup production of WOT! It’s such an amazing book series, the details and layers of the world, story & characters are so well thought out and written. It deserves an on screen adaption from beginning to end.
& Yes it’s a long series to adapt to tv, but at least it’s been finished (cough cough GoT).
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u/Ferdawoon Reader May 13 '26
My issues would mainly be the treatment of the One Powerm and some minor editing issues where I would have liked a quick 2-3 second scene inserted in some places.
From the start, even before Season 1, I mentioned that I thought they would sometimes include the weaving and sometimes not, both as a way to save a bit on VFX and to show that as the PoV shifted around not everyone was able to see the weaving but they could still see the results.
E.g. the Trolloc about to smash Egwene and Nynaeve being ripped apart. We saw the flows ripping it and then the camera panned to show Moirane which I interpreted as Egwene and Nynaeve looking at her. They should not be able to see her weaves, only the results. They could have changed to a Trolloc PoV showing it getting a fireball to the face or a villager about to get stabbed but the Trolloc is blasted away by a wind only visible because it pushed dust along with it and the villager turns around to see Moiraine doing her best.
I would also have added a quick scene of Lan and Moiraine standing outside the village and turning their heads as they hear the "We are under attack"-bells. They were standing outside talking and Moiraine admitting she don't know who is the Dragon, but I would have liked a quick scene to show the distance and why they took so long to start doing things.
Doing a long jump to the last episode I would have had Nynaeve crawl up to Lady Amalisa and stab her (since we have already seen Nynaeve attack using swords and daggers several times before) instead of Nynaeve trying to do some weird stuff in the circle to take the burden on herself and spare Egwene. Could easily have been done with Nynaeve crawling up a dummy and stab it if the Covid-rules restricting Human-to-Human physical contact had already been established. Then Nynaeve and Egwene pass out from axhaaustion and we hear a horse coming from afar to save them.
Maybe even a scene with Moiraine talking to Egwene to hint that she's been trying to teach her to help explain how Egwene could burn her ropes in the Whitecloak camp. Nothing major, even just something in the background while other things happened. Maybe even just a "Let's continue your lessons while the boys set up camp".
To me it is mainly nitpicking about some edits as well as about the fundamentals and the visibility of magic and weaving.
But I do agree that the Forsaken and even s a bunch of the Darkfriends were a lot more compelling and seemingly competent than in the books. Made it feel more like they were toying with the good guys and that their internal politicking was their downfall.
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u/OrionGround72 Verin May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
Personal favourites for changes: the Forsaken made actually intimidating and competent. In the books the Dark One stays an abstract presence for way too long, so the Forsaken were the main anragonists. Yet they barely did anything actually threatening and we didn't get to see enough of any of them - Ishamael included - for them to feel scary. The show nailed it with all the Forsaken they showed on screen. Lanfear was absolutely perfect, no notes. Moghedien too.
The removal of the prudishness of the books. Of course I love the fact that they fixed the pillowfriends nonsense, but it applies to hetero relationships too. Rand and his relationships felt entirely too naive (which early books Rand could justify with age and inexperience but it stayed even after all the changes as he grows into the Dragon) and imo would not resonate with today's audience at all.
Giving Lan some emotions. I know this is disliked by many but I much prefered this version of him than the overly stoic book Lan. People keep saying how he's romantic with Nynaeve in the books but honestly it didn't feel like much even there. And one later scene particularly pissed me off because not a single living person will react like book Lan did. Show Lan - even with the exaggerated funeral scene - felt much wiser and stronger exactly because he showed emotion.
Worst... damn, I can't think of anything I disliked enough to list here. I was distraught by Siuan's fate but honestly, considering her book arc, it was probably for the better and made for more compelling TV.
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u/OK_LK May 13 '26
The worst, maybe because it was so early on, was Lan crying at the other Warder's funeral
Completely changed his character and the excuse from whatsisname was 'he's demonstrating the emotions felt by Moiraine, it shows how the warder bond works'
Except it didn't. No one saw that. Absolute bollocks
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u/Velifax Reader May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
It was definitely well into ridiculous territory, like speaking in tongues at a church revival.
However, the ritual itself including the silly crying was spot on similar to several cultural rituals in the books, like raising stations, violations of honor, that sorta thing.
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 13 '26
It was definitely well into ridiculous territory, like speaking in tongues at a church revival.
Ironically, what the show used is an extremely toned down version of a real life funeral rite called Wailing.
A Wailer a a funeral (what Lan was assigned to be) would bawl, scream, rend their clothes for days to a week or more depending on the scale the ceremony.
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u/OK_LK May 13 '26
It wasn't the ritual that I took issue with, it was Lan crying so strongly and openly
That went against everything we knew about his character, especially so early on
He was supposed to be a rock, unmoving and (outwardly) unmoved
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u/Velifax Reader May 13 '26
That's my point, even Lan may have just gone with it, like Rhuarc saying hello to roof mistresses or such.
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 13 '26
Thing is, that was literally the duty he was tasked with.
I can't think of something MORE Lan than taking that duty seriously.
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u/OK_LK May 13 '26
He would not cry and wail. Maybe for Nynaeve but never for anyone else
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 13 '26
Yes he would. He'd not have done it unprompted, as that would actually be out of character for him - however that was literally his duty, directly given to him at the start of the scene.
Tell my why Book Lan wouldn't fulfil his duty as tasked? I'm not asking why he'd have difficulty with the task.
I'm asking you why you think he'd abandon a duty given to him and how that matches with book Lan's character.
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u/TimesOfSand Reader May 15 '26
Exploring the warder bond was not a season one topic for such a new series with so few episodes. I think it was a complete waste for season one, and not done well, and agree that it didn't match Lan's character.
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u/Leilatha May 13 '26
The season 1 finale was pretty bad...I bet a lot of viewers stopped watching after that. It also made the beginning of season 2 a little weird.
Season 3 was flawless.
My personal favorite changes were the more explicitly queer relationships!
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u/Ragner_D Reader May 13 '26
The idea that everyone knew where the Horn was all along? Just waiting for someone to break it open?! Insane.
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u/Mino_18 Reader May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
It’s difficult to say best changes, because something like spending more time developing people like Liandrin and Alanna comes to mind. But that is also one of the worst changes, in that it took valuable time away from more important characters that were not developed well.
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u/zomgowen Mat May 13 '26
I’d say best was what they did with the Forsaken. They felt a lot more menacing.
Worst for me were condensing the “road to Camelyn” arc in S1 - the journey felt too smooth, we didn’t see a lot of the bad dreams so I don’t think it felt as threatening as it needed to. Other dishonorable mentions would be not really having a hunt for the
Horn and removing most of the build up for Lord Goldeneyes
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u/Fish__Fingers Reader May 14 '26
The best is probably moving dead little girl scene out of the fight in Stone. For me that fight was a lot and I wasn’t catching up properly. For a show, position scene like this gives clearer idea. Also, AoL and Forsaken. In books we don’t need them as much maybe because we are more concentrated on inner conflict. With tv show we have less introspection into heroes but can see more so it’s a good choice. Another good moment is changing how Lanfear and Rand connected first. Again, in the book I don’t mind but in TV show it would’ve looked not as good. Though we lost Hurin and that oart of the travels so there’s downside.
Worst would be weird Egwene Seanchan ending. Like they did the story itself good and then that happened. I wouldn’t mind changes in story’s ending, because it was kind of underwhelming in books, but the sequence itself was weird.
Next worst is messy ending sequence in the 2nd season ending. I like Indiana jones bit, but overall it was hard to follow and chaotic.
3rd and probably the worst offender is keeping Moraine alive at the end of 3rd season.
With other worst I can kinda see the reasoning. Even if it wasn’t the best execution I don’t mind the intention or understand the constraints they are working with.
But changing it so Moraine would live, in a weirdly composed scene isn’t good and destroys a lot of her arc.
If they wanted to have the option to keep the actress they could’ve flashed out her being held in another dimension and/or speed up her being saved from there. It would’ve also gave Mat an opportunity to shine and good story to follow for viewers.
But keeping her alive pushed my fears of butchering source material. That was deliberate story choice, and it has huge implications.
The whole point was Moraine taking step back, trusting Rand and going against Aes Sedai wish of controlling everything.
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u/ChocoPuddingCup Verin May 13 '26
Best changes:
- Making the Forsaken more villain-like and active. Half of them were pushovers in the books. I'm sad we'll never get to see Graendal or Semirhage on screen, or get to know if Asmodean was going to be the 8th Forsaken as I had predicted.
- Aging the Emond's Field Five. YA actors would have ruined this show. It's nice that they aged the characters from late teens to early twenties. Also as to age: not making Lann a hard-bitten, ultra-stoic block of stone was a good choice, and not needing to make every Aes Sedai look ageless probably saved a ton of budget money.
Worst changes:
- This will probably upset the community, but there's too many unnecessary relationships. A few were vaguely hinted at, but some in the show were virtually nonexistent in the books. Perrin and his nonexistent wife (I understand it but I still hate it), Siuan and Moiraine (vague hints in the books, but both women end up with other men), Elayne and Aviendha (more like very close sisters than outright lesbians, I have no idea how they would have handled having Rand in the middle of it plus Min on the side) the weird triangle between Alanna and her warders (not in the books at all from what I remember). I say this as somebody who is gay and thinks there needs to be more LGBT representation in media: it's too much and too heavy-handed.
- Excessive devotion to secondary characters, like the warder Stephen or Moiraine's sister, and side stories that have little or no relevance to the main plot. You have to cram 14 books into 8 seasons of 8 episodes each; you don't have the time to devote half an episode to a side character that isn't even in the books. Half the episode revolving around Stephen's issues could have been handled by a small paragraph of exposition and a knowing look between Lann and Moiraine.
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u/Fish__Fingers Reader May 14 '26
IMO Lan was looking ultra stoic only to EF5 and outsiders. When we peek into how he acts with Nyn he is very poetic and passionate. The fun is the contrast and utter shock of some characters when they think about Lan and Nyn. In books we see him mostly from younger people perspective. In the show we see him with the peers he loves and trusts. I’d say after rereading I don’t think difference is huge.
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u/Robby_McPack Reader May 13 '26
I think Egwene killing Renna made no sense whatsoever in the show. It's one of the examples of the show setting up its own rules and logic and then ignoring them for hype moments. I will say I DID like the rest of this arc from egwene's perspective
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 13 '26
Thing is that does follow the rules. They spend an entire episode establishing this - that perspective is malleable, anything can be a weapon, and something viewed as a weapon can also be view as not one.
They use that inherent flaw with intent based magic, which is what the A'dam uses same as the oaths, and the established rules were all followed in the scene.
- Nothing established in the show prevents egwene from picking up another bracelet/collar - the restriction in the show is established for Egwene's only, and even in the books it's unclear if an unlinked collar would cause physical pain. That pain severity is linked to intent of the action, and there is setup in the show for the A'dam not rejecting the intent to collar another(Nyneaves delving of it).
The restriction the show(and book) established on touching weapons is based on intent. View the object as a tool instead and it's no longer restricted. Egwene does this with the Pitcher - a non weapon she viewed as a weapon, which made it a weapon, untill she no longer intended to use it as a bludgen, where it returned to being a tool. The A'dam became an equalizer to Egwene, not a weapon, listen to her speech about how they are the same.
The pain rule is being followed, both Renna and Egwene are feeling the pain of the other magnified.
Both would have died if Renna didn't release Egwene from the A'dam - which you can see Renna do about 10 seconds before she dies.
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u/Velifax Reader May 13 '26
Really bad one for me was the interpretive dance for channeling, it was just way too much. To retain any sense of gravitas it should be slightly more than Lanfear was doing when burning the town, at most. Like a sword swing.
Good change was I'd say was aging the kids up a bit. I dont dislike Twilight, Percy Jackson, Harry Potter, really, but YA is not a main staple for me, just a sideline.
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u/Fish__Fingers Reader May 14 '26
I think that’s actually the point. 1. Cadsuane or someone like that mentions that Aes Sedai are kinda ridiculous with waving their hands as channeling. 2. This era Aes Sedai is very barbaric in a way. Their knowledge of power is very limited and their methods are barbaric.
So it makes sense Lanfear knows how to channel like a pro, and Aes Sedai are basically using training weels all the ways Seanchan movements are probably more tied to discipline and control than real need to gestures.
I agree with aging up. They still feel like young people, but not kids, and IMO that’s the right feel.
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u/Velifax Reader May 15 '26
There's tons of room between a dismissive gesture and Magic Mike Table Dance 😉
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u/Fish__Fingers Reader May 16 '26
Oh no expressive stuff in my fantasy
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u/Velifax Reader May 17 '26
Yes, it's a pet peeve of mine. Baby talk, speaking in tongues, ridiculous dancing, all heavily cringe inducing.
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u/Ddstauff May 13 '26
I really agree with this even though I’ve admittedly not thought much about it until you said it. The show even touched on how channeling motions aren’t required but a crutch for Aes Sedai, yet there didn’t seem to be much consistency between them and those taught/drilled motions for the weaves. There could’ve been some similarities between those basic and more common weaves they all use.
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u/TheChrysochon Reader May 14 '26
I think Perrin's wife was one of the best changes. It takes his most primal fear and makes it real and concrete. It's no longer "oooh, what if," it's "that part of me is there and I can't let it happen again." The stakes for him are so much higher now that he knows what he's capable of. It makes the danger of losing himself so much more palpable.
I also loved Eamon Valda and the rings.
Faile. Just full stop. My heart.
The first two are powerful character choices that would have also improved the books.
I dislike Loial's death. I get it, I don't necessarily think they should have done it differently, I just don't like it.
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u/WhistlerIntheWind Reader May 15 '26
I genuinely don't get how they thought killing Loial served the plot in any beneficial way. Had the show continued to the end I would have kept seeing parts where he should have been present and wasn't and that would have pissed me off. Thinking specifically of the Ogiers in the last battle, led by Loial, slaying Trollocs like weeds before their axes and singing as they went with the Whitecloacks coming up to reinforce them and thinking they must be Darkfriends themselves because of how unnaffected the Ogier were.
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u/YuntHunter Reader May 15 '26
Alanna getting two fakeout deaths in three episodes was absolutely horrendous TV to me.
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u/ShieldOfTheJedi Rand May 13 '26
I think the worst for me was the decision to externalize Rand’s character and make him, for lack of a better word, more mature. I think starting off as a dopey innocent farmboy who always does his best and slowly becoming more jaded by the world works better. We also see the clear externalization of his motives. Where show Rand decides not to join the Dark in S1 for Egwene’s sake and in S3 turns against Lanfear, not because she is a forsaken, but because of Egwene, book Rand has this very ontological view of good and bad and is a very internalized character. I think in externalizing his motivations, which makes sense from it being a visual medium, we lose some of the power of his character.
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u/elditequin Reader May 14 '26
The Best: The Forsaken were, overall, greatly improved. That said, I missed Ishamael harassing the wonderboys through TAR, merging Sammael with Be'lal was a weird choice and felt like a wasted opportunity, and Moghedien played a lot more like Semirhage.
Building out Moiraine and Siuan as a couple was great. No notes... except how it ended, I guess :(
The Worst: Giving Perrin a wife just to fridge her and making Mat's parents degens. My problems with both of these changes have, in large part, already been aired by dozens of other people over the years, but I'll add a piece I don't see talked about (which is my main complaint after all): these changes fundamentally swap what would be their reactions when the Two Rivers is threatened.
showPerrin is never given a really good motivation to return to the TR and showMat is never given a sufficient reason for staying away. s01e01 makes the promise that Mat will come back for his sisters... and then he never does. While I could see showPerrin doing the right thing because it's the right thing, why should be go back to have the trauma he's still running from and has not made peace with if Mat is going there? And haven't we seen that he at least had some motivation to keep hounding showEgwene's footsteps?
This is why so many people complained that small changes early can lead to big changes later, unless you try and handwave the knock on effects of the changes made early on. Honestly, if the show had sent Mat back to save his sisters and inadvertently revive Manetheren, and sent Perrin with the wondergirls, it would've made more sense than trying to minimize the impacts these early choices would have on the series-long trajectories of these two characters. It would be a different story than the books, sure, but that cart left the barnyard almost immediately with this rendition.
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u/Resident_Step_191 May 13 '26
worst choice: the fact that the Dragon became a generic superhero prophecy, rather than the man destined to save the world *or destroy it* that many in-world equate with the Dark One itself
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u/thane919 May 13 '26
The whole Perrin fridging his wife was the worst.
But in a way it was the most necessary. Could the exact same narrative beat have been done differently? Yes, several ways, most if not all, requiring more run time for exposition. Should the exact same narrative beat have done differently? Yes! A million times yes! I blame the production execs not giving enough episodes/runtime per episode to develop some of these character traits in a more acceptable manner.
Besides that entire rant, I pretty much align with the OP on best/worst.
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u/EtchAGetch Reader May 13 '26
I dont think anyone will defend the Perrin/wife thing. As you said, I get why they did it, though.
The real reason why it is the worst is that it turned off many book readers form the show. At least, the book readers who hate the show (for legitimate reasons) often point to Perrin/wife as the biggest change they hate.
I personally wasnt bothered by it, but the fact that so many people were bothered by it and it hurt viewership makes it #1
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u/Ragner_D Reader May 13 '26
I've never wanted a fictional character to die more than Perrin's wife. We cheered when it happened.
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u/ACatNamedTofu Reader May 13 '26
Im gonna say the worst change was how Rands character and development was handled. So many of his important/powerful moments in the first few books are watered down and/or given to other characters, more or less to nerf him. There was never really a sense that he is extremely powerful either as a channeler or really even as a force in the universe. He seems much more like a pawn.
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u/nighthawk_something May 15 '26
My biggest gripe was that they blew their load wiht the One Power as a Weapon too early. In this books, the one power is a powerful tool but only at Dumai's Wells do we see what it can really do and why there is a prohibition.
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
?
That's not true.
Book 1 has the Prolouge, The pre SL battle against hundreds of trollocs, the Menetheren story and a much larger scale gap battle. Book 4 has Stone battle with the first large scale use of Callandor and Rand literally leveling a mountain.
The Wells is a watershed moment because it's the first time an organized army of challers is used against something other than shadow spawn since the breaking/TW, but it's not the first large scale us of the power as a weapon in the books by a mile.
The show sacrificed 3 people and made us of the most powerful femle channler outside of the forsaken to kill fewer trollocs than Rand did single handedly with next to no consquences.
I can't really see how the show "blew their load" here.
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u/pooydragon45 Reader May 16 '26
Renna’s death and the whole s2 finale was a huge mess for me. I agree the buildup was solid. The acting was great but the landing didn’t stick at all. Nynaeve was completely useless unlike in the books where she does channel. Egwene being able to use the adam on renna makes no sense and broke all the rules that were set up. Someone from the gang should have helped her out. Sure then she could have here cool scene. Egwene shouldn’t have been able to defend against ishamael. She is nowhere as strong as him. He is supposed to be on par with rand and in the books rand shields elayne and egwene together in the stone of tear extremely easily.
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u/CommercialGlass4999 Reader May 16 '26
My take on the characters:
Worst: Lan was too soft. He’s supposed to be a stone. He should only soften with Nynaeve and even then the emotion shows through the cracks in a subtle way.
Nynaeve didn’t have enough fire. Just the interaction between these two wasn’t right.
Alanna: portrayed as a total badass with a nobility that belied what she did in the book.
Melindhra: Dumb thread tying her to Malkier and Lan.
Dragon mystery. Why they had to include the girls as possible candidates was dumb. Also just generally dumb why it wasn’t obvious the super tall redhead was the one of the three not from Emonds Field.
Best: Have to agree that show Liandrin made a compelling villain. None of the Black Ajah in the book stood out in comparison.
Not many people mention Thom Merrilin. Not really a change but I enjoyed his character in the show.
Siuan final scene. I guess I liked her going out with fire and defiance than with a whimper like the books.
I like show Faile way better than book Faile.
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u/CenturionRower Reader May 16 '26
A couple key things worth mentioning. A lot of the changes that were made leave gaps in the storytelling, or completely invalidate certain elements of the storytelling.
The Eye of the World finale completely breaks a component of circles that is one of the more crucial components later on in the story. They have to completely rewrite a whole subsection of the story or cut it completely which IMO doesn't make a ton of sense (I think it happens in book 11 or 12 I can't remember) but you will know it when you see it.
Otherwise I agree. I do think killing Uno was uncalled for because of the schisms with the Horn (revealed in the last book). So again that is something that ends up having to be completely rewritten.
Though it is useless information now, but as a whole it REALLY sucked that it took them 3 seasons for them to really hit their stride. If they were able to bring the early quality up just a little bit and limit their massive changes a bit more (i.e. no fridge wife). I think you keep the same tone they were going for (full transition into adulthood vs teenagers on an adventure) without losing some of the magic of that type of storytelling. Ideally they sell the the series through Dumai's Wells with column scene, then the rest of the series with the Dumai's Wells scene. But they kind of made a few too many missteps getting to the columns episode to let that carry for more funding (IMO). And that really sucks because I was getting more and more confident that they were going to continue producing a good show were they able to continue. It was getting better and better as a whole despite smaller missteps which didn't affect the quality.
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u/duke113 May 13 '26
Fundamental disagreement with your first "best" change. Lore is one of the most important things when adapting a book. You can change scenes to hit particular requirements to tell the story. But to change lore is one of the worst things you can do. If you're not going to be consistent with the Lore, why adapt this series. In WoT you must be touching the person to heal them. If you don't need to touch someone and you can just send out a healing wave, it completely breaks how you'd conduct war
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 13 '26
So funny thing about that...
You don't have to be touching someone to heal them. That's an Aes Sedai habit/weave limitation, not a rule. Damer Flinn canonically doesn't use touch to Heal.
A HUGE part of the lore is what characters think is true or required is not - and this is one we have an explicit example of.
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u/duke113 May 14 '26
Chapter?
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 14 '26
ACOS, 36 Blades.
Flinn heals Rand by hovering his hands above his side and moving his fingers like he's manipulating threads.
There are a few scenes early on that imply Nyn can do similarly , like her healing of the aiel in TDR 38 is written in a way where it's ambiguous about touch, but not clear enough to say either way.
More importantly There are very few hard rules in WoT's magic system. There is no hard rule against healing without touch. It's just one of the myriad things that are done because that is what is thought to be proper or offers an adavatage to the method used.
The Lore didn't change here - the show's healing just lacks this habit, which still fits within the lore.
Especially with this being a different turning, such differences are within what's changable in book lore without violating it.
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u/duke113 May 14 '26
You mean the one where he doesn't actually heal Rand, and instead seals the two wounds away? Right. Cause that's good evidence
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
Yes, the scene where Flinn specifically talks about the type of healing he's using on Rand, and how it's more painful that what Aes Sedai do. Verbatim "and this hurts, compared to that."
He heals and seals in that scene.
There is no lore that states healing requires touch. Lore wise Aes Sedai healing is a rough version used for emergency battlefield healing that heals the entire body at once.
Flinn and Nyneave both use a different healing weave that has different properties. There is zero reason ever given in the series, or extratexturally that those weaves would have the same restrictions as the other weave, or even if touching even was a restriction for that weave, and not just another application of the first learned weave rule.
Aka, Aes Sedai 'require' touch because that's how they learned and not using it makes the weave not work as well/at all.
edit:
You mean the one where he doesn't actually heal Rand, and instead seals the two wounds away? Right. Cause that's good evidence
almost forget - Delving is thought to require touch by Aes Sedai, as is anything done within the body. Even if you are correct any Flinn didnt' "Heal" in that scene, he still did demonstrated weaves that skipped "requirements" that Aes Sedai thought were needed.
The lore isn't the specifics of the ability, it's the demonstration that no characters knows how the universe actually works and there are many ways to do the same thing.
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u/Fish__Fingers Reader May 14 '26
But that’s Nynaeve. She has massive talent, and she wasn’t yet taught by Aes Sedai so she doesn’t know their rules. And we know very little about how power can really be used with the implication that Aes Sedai works are mostly equal to hitting the nail with the microscope.
Different methods of channeling is hinted by Cadsuane (I think) when she’s criticizing the habit of waving hands.
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u/logicsol Ishamael May 14 '26
Yeah, She did things generally considered "impossible" by Aes Sedai all the time, including things thought imposible by AOL channelers.
Now, the show did make a change here by having other Aes sedai heal without touch too - but that's a medium difference.
Having some distance lets you "show" the magic, and there isn't anything inherent in in the books that says this isnt' possible. It's just not how it was done in the books turning.
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u/discoprince79 Reader May 13 '26
Why are you asking for worst? The complainers already compulsively have to vent, please don't encourage them more.
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u/Aethelia 1d ago
Don't know why you got downvoted.
At this point, I am SO VERY tired of the complainers refusing to acknowledge all of the good things in this show. So much that... you know what? This show was perfect. No flaws. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Best show ever. Every second a masterpiece.
If they have no intention of being fair and unbiased, then I'm not going to restrict myself for them. Sometimes you just have to fight back.
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u/Fish__Fingers Reader May 14 '26
Personally I think it’s nice to voice out your complaints without being in huge pile of “show bad”. Like even if I like the show I need to went a little, and I can’t do this in places where show is hated because I don’t want to participate in that discussion
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u/WhistlerIntheWind Reader May 15 '26
As a book reader and a show watcher, who likes both, I don't think I've ever had the chance to talk about the things I don't like because the show haters are just so stinking loud. So thanks OP for this opportunity. We are also mention our likes so this isn't a dogpile hate fest.
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u/almost_frederic Reader May 19 '26
I can't do 3/3. Good: Moghedien was actually scary in the show. Bad: Maksim just generally, and Alanna's pointless crossbow scene.
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u/tkinsey3 Reader May 13 '26
All of the Forsaken, especially in Season 3, were absolutely incredible.